GreenStreet: Mixed-Use Development At 1201 Fannin St.

[Houston19514]

I think the disappointment lies in the fact that so many Houstonians are craving that ONE entertainment/shopping district that will draw world and national renown like so many other cities currently have. Fairly or not, HP was hyped as the realization of these urban fantasies since it's inception and when you look at what it was proposed to be and what it is now, I can understand a fair bit of letdown. HP went from urban hipster fantasy to a curiously designed Park Shops. I seriously doubt that is what many people were expecting when it was announced.

It must be fun living inside that head of yours. You have a CRAZY wild imagination. ;-)

Edited November 20, 2008 by Houston19514

[MetroMogul]

who's craving this? it surprises me many have never heard of hp.

Well, many people on this forum for starters.

[dalparadise]

Well said.

Strange, I found the discussion of places he would "seldom frequent" and "occasionally frequent" to be very poorly said.

[musicman]

Well, many people on this forum for starters.

that's just a little different that "so many Houstonians" lockmat just bumped up a thread where some place named chocolata that closed and when you bring up the website CRAVE is the first word you see

[MetroMogul]

Well, I personally know of many people off site that would love an entertainment/shopping district that rivals Times Square (it's not going to happen) or the Vegas Strip (also not going to happen). Many thought that HP was going to be the beginning of something like that and looking at the end result they feel letdown in a way. Me personally, I don't mind it too much and I see alot of potential. At the very least it's a new place to use a bathroom downtown.

[memebag]

I think the disappointment lies in the fact that so many Houstonians are craving that ONE entertainment/shopping district that will draw world and national renown like so many other cities currently have.

Eh? HP is disappointing because it's an ugly, empty mall. I've been to lots of malls, all over the world. HP is one of the ugliest, and the only one I've ever seen open with only 4 stores tenants. I'd bet there are fewer than 100 Houstonians craving those words you wrote.

[musicman]

Well, I personally know of many people off site that would love an entertainment/shopping district that rivals Times Square (it's not going to happen) or the Vegas Strip (also not going to happen).

PETER BROWN FOR MAYOR!!

[crunchtastic]

For the record, I never said HP was a failure. I said the retail tenants suck. Mightily.

Seriously suck. And as far as I know, the HP developers have had many, many months to attract suitable retail tenants.

[MetroMogul]

Eh? HP is disappointing because it's an ugly, empty mall. I've been to lots of malls, all over the world. HP is one of the ugliest, and the only one I've ever seen open with only 4 stores tenants. I'd bet there are fewer than 100 Houstonians craving those words you wrote.

Judging from the sentiment of some on this site alone, I'd beg to differ.

[dalparadise]

I think the disappointment lies in the fact that so many Houstonians are craving that ONE entertainment/shopping district that will draw world and national renown like so many other cities currently have. Fairly or not, HP was hyped as the realization of these urban fantasies since it's inception and when you look at what it was proposed to be and what it is now, I can understand a fair bit of letdown. HP went from urban hipster fantasy to a curiously designed Park Shops. I seriously doubt that is what many people were expecting when it was announced.

However, to deem HP a failure is very premature and giving it a three month life span is utterly ridiculous. I think HP has a good chance of limping along into something respectable or at the very least an alternative to the Tunnels and the Park Shops.

The Houstonians craving this are unaware of The Galleria. I think <100 sounds about right.

On a serious note, a comparison to The Galleria is valid, I think. When that mall was introduced into a seemingly illogical setting -- It was considered the middle of nowhere at the time -- it focused on destination retail and the novelty of an ice rink in hot, humid Houston, to draw people who were curious. It also was designed as an enclosed city unto itself, with a nod to "public spaces" (ironically on private property) that had rarely been seen outside much older cities. It invented (or more accurately re-invented) an architectural type, further distinguishing itself and sealing its longevity as a model for others to follow.

I hate to think what "Marq-E on Main" will look like when it turns The Gal's age.

Edited November 20, 2008 by dalparadise

[worldlyman]

Eh? HP is disappointing because it's an ugly, empty mall. I've been to lots of malls, all over the world. HP is one of the ugliest, and the only one I've ever seen open with only 4 stores tenants. I'd bet there are fewer than 100 Houstonians craving those words you wrote.

This place is just like starting, y'know. Houston Pavilions seems like a cool place, interesting OPEN design that is opposite of the Galleria, close to the downtown action.

I've been to some beautiful malls in Asia, been down the Stroget in Copenhagen, and I've appreciated the unique Horton Plaza in San Diego when I lived in that city...but there's nothing all that wrong with HP except the circular rings with their unsafe-height rails. Is it because it's in Houston that it's "an ugly. empty mall," especially when it's NOT EVEN FINISHED yet? I notice that negativity phenomemon...just because something's in Houston, it's ugly or uncool or this or that.

Just the whole set-up of Houston Pavilions to Main Street Square relative to the rest of downtown...that whole thing when I walked there after work last Friday night...seems a lot more edgy, untamed and YET HONESTLY more urbane than doing the Hollywood&Highland (and that Walk of Fame crap), more so than the Century City Shopping Center and quite more so than Beverly Center/Beverly Connection.

Houston Pavilion just adds texture to downtown. The large cultural/performance buildings, the bayou walk, the Main Street action, the skyscrapers...that nouveaux urban vibe in a Sunbelt context, it's here in H-town, not Hollywood.

I love L.A. but it seems played out...the influx of new developments happening in Houston just seems much more delicious.

[MetroMogul]

The Houstonians craving this are unaware of The Galleria. I think <100 sounds about right.

On a serious note, a comparison to The Galleria is valid, I think. When that mall was introduced into a seemingly illogical setting -- It was considered the middle of nowhere at the time -- it focused on destination retail and the novelty of an ice rink in hot, humid Houston, to draw people who were curious. It also was designed as an enclosed city unto itself, with a nod to "public spaces" (ironically on private property) that had rarely been seen outside much older cities. It invented (or more accurately re-invented) an architectural type, further distinguishing itself and sealing its longevity as a model for others to follow.

I hate to think what "Marq-E on Main" will look like when it turns The Gal's age.

HP would not have been developed at all if what you and Meme allude to is true. The original concept of HP was to cater to those that wanted the whole mixed use/entertainment feel. I doubt multi-million dollar projects are conceived on the whims of less than 100 REGULAR people. I suppose we'll just have to agree to disagree on that.

While the comparison to the the Galleria is valid, the lure of HP is that it was supposed to breathe a bit of new life into a somewhat revitalized downtown.

Personally, I don't have a dog in this fight. Whether HP becomes close to what it was envisioned to be at the onset or just another bathroom and bookstop doesn't really matter to me. I will say though that it was incredibly short-sighted to open only four stores in such a hyped project. The opening would have gone over better if they decided to wait until more tenants were ready.

[jgriff]

On a serious note, a comparison to The Galleria is valid, I think. When that mall was introduced into a seemingly illogical setting -- It was considered the middle of nowhere at the time -- it focused on destination retail and the novelty of an ice rink in hot, humid Houston, to draw people who were curious.

Easy access via 610 and the massive free parking garages have helped also. These are two things that HP doesn't have.

[roadrunner]

I wasn't expecting a some extraordinary destination shopping. I was expecting something more like West Ave. I realize that West Ave isn't complete, but I am already impressed just driving by the current structure. Walking by HP gives me the same feeling when I drive by the Marq E on I-10.

Don't get me wrong, I think there is still a chance for HP to succeed in the short term (next 5 years or so). What really worries me is what the place is like in 15-20 years. Restaurant lifespans don't usually last that long, and I can't imagine the retail would either. It's up to the buildings and concept to keep drawing people....and unfortunately I don't think that will be enough. Just look at Bayou Place.

[LTAWACS]

Most of the shows that have been there so far have been Hip Hop concerts......

I dont know if this is good or bad...

[tierwestah]

Why does everyone keep comparing this with bayou place. This thing is way larger than Bayou place and more tennants occupy, plus its location to the rail line.

[lockmat]

From the Downtown Happenings newsletter concerning BAM:

On Monday, November 24 meet presidential hopeful and author Mike Huckabee, who will be signing his latest book Do the Right Thing. Take advantage of their early bird specials on Friday, November 28 from 7-10 a.m. and enjoy an extra 10 percent savings on everything you can fit in their traditional canvas tote bags. Later that day meet popular author Tosca Lee, who will be in the store signing copies of her latest work, Hava: The Story of Eve.

[LTAWACS]

Sounds like it's going to get packed then.

[totheskies]

The Houstonians craving this are unaware of The Galleria. I think <100 sounds about right.

On a serious note, a comparison to The Galleria is valid, I think. When that mall was introduced into a seemingly illogical setting -- It was considered the middle of nowhere at the time -- it focused on destination retail and the novelty of an ice rink in hot, humid Houston, to draw people who were curious. It also was designed as an enclosed city unto itself, with a nod to "public spaces" (ironically on private property) that had rarely been seen outside much older cities. It invented (or more accurately re-invented) an architectural type, further distinguishing itself and sealing its longevity as a model for others to follow.

I hate to think what "Marq-E on Main" will look like when it turns The Gal's age.

Hmm sounds like any critics of the The Galleria back then are probably eating it today (no literally, they're eating at Kona Grill, The Cheesecake Factory...)

You guys sound old and bitter the way that you talk about HP. It's been open one month and four days. There's hardly anything there for us to criticize yet. My personal "first impression" of the project??? Nothin' special, but it works. It's a vast improvement over the three surface parking lots that existed there in 2006. The tourist and convention crowd (yes that's correct, Houston DOES actually have tourists) and convention crowds are loving it, as was apparent during the Latin Grammys. Being located in downtown and on the rail line, Houston Pavilions is providing a much needed outlet for after hours retail and entertainment. And the Marq-E comparison is a compliment to HP, b/c last time I checked, the Marq-E's business was booming.

[Poppahop]

last time I checked, the Marq-E's business was booming.

Then the last time must have been a long time ago.

[tierwestah]

I do wish they could've landed better tennants and hope they do in the future. Some of you all are talking like its over. We still have alot of retail space left in the pavilions, not to mention the remaining retail space on Main Street to fill up.

It just beats the hell out of those ugly surface lots that were there before. I'm reserving my judgement for this place until the Spring when everytihng is finished.

The only thing i'm disapopointed in right now is the lighting on H/P. The developers were talking like it was supposed to be so stunning and extravagent. They were saying that they were going to bring video screens and flashing lights.Now when I call the HP number on the website, the employees basically are unaware of those plans which now don't sound very promising in the future. It currently looks boring at night.

[TexasVines]

Why does everyone keep comparing this with bayou place. This thing is way larger than Bayou place and more tennants occupy, plus its location to the rail line.

because Bayou Place was supposed to be a place with eating in the day for workers, eating at night for those living in the area, eating at night for those coming into the theater district, entertainment for those coming into the theater district for after the show and entertainment for those living in the area, and most importantly to actually DRAW people to it at night for the entertainment venues offered....IE to give a "night life" to that part of Houston...from reading this entire thread it seems to me that many felt HP was going to actually do the same thing....especially draw in the night life and drive business to the other tenants of HP

Last I saw one of the new main tenants at Bayou Place was going to be a server farm....which is about as far from day or night life as one can get

Edited November 20, 2008 by TexasVines

[LTAWACS]

because Bayou Place was supposed to be a place with eating in the day for workers, eating at night for those living in the area, eating at night for those coming into the theater district, entertainment for those coming into the theater district for after the show and entertainment for those living in the area, and most importantly to actually DRAW people to it at night for the entertainment venues offered....IE to give a "night life" to that part of Houston...from reading this entire thread it seems to me that many felt HP was going to actually do the same thing....especially draw in the night life and drive business to the other tenants of HP

Last I saw one of the new main tenants at Bayou Place was going to be a server farm....which is about as far from day or night life as one can get

Yes. The Planet has been there for some time now.

[Jax]

Isn't The Planet office in a section of Bayou place that was intended to be used for office space? Just like HP has a tower section dedicated to office space? Or did they put the Blue Planet office into a space that was originally intended to be used for "night life"?

[MetroMogul]

because Bayou Place was supposed to be a place with eating in the day for workers, eating at night for those living in the area, eating at night for those coming into the theater district, entertainment for those coming into the theater district for after the show and entertainment for those living in the area, and most importantly to actually DRAW people to it at night for the entertainment venues offered....IE to give a "night life" to that part of Houston...from reading this entire thread it seems to me that many felt HP was going to actually do the same thing....especially draw in the night life and drive business to the other tenants of HP

Last I saw one of the new main tenants at Bayou Place was going to be a server farm....which is about as far from day or night life as one can get

Exactly. People did not expect HP to be "just another shopping center." They expected a mixed use development with heavy emphasis on shopping and entertainment with a moderate residential component. To say the demand for that is less than 100 people in the whole of the city is a tad silly. HP was conceived due to that demand.

[memebag]

Exactly. People did not expect HP to be "just another shopping center." They expected a mixed use development with heavy emphasis on shopping and entertainment with a moderate residential component. To say the demand for that is less than 100 people in the whole of the city is a tad silly. HP was conceived due to that demand.

I didn't say that. I said there were less than 100 Houstonians craving what you described ("ONE entertainment/shopping district that will draw world and national renown like so many other cities currently have"), and I stand by it. I doubt there are more than 100 people who care about this issue and also believe that one entertainment and/or shopping district could possibly have that effect.

[Fringe]

Most of the shows that have been there so far have been Hip Hop concerts......

That fits in withmost of the clubs in downtown. That's why downtown is not drawing the white young professional crowd as much as midtown. montrose and the heighths.

[LTAWACS]

That fits in withmost of the clubs in downtown. That's why downtown is not drawing the white young professional crowd as much as midtown. montrose and the heighths.

Is that the developers' target audience?

Edited November 21, 2008 by LTAWACS

[Jax]

The East End of Downtown has a pretty good music scene. Not sure if you can call that downtown though.

[roadrunner]

For what it's worth, as a young professional in Houston that hangs around the trendy crowd, I can tell all of you that HOB is very popular. They draw great acts. Everyone I knew went to the Michael Jackson cover band concert last weekend. A couple of friends and I went late and tried to get in but the line was down the street.

The Foundation Room is also very popular with the 30,000aires of Houston (yep, they're here too). HOB is an excellent tenant and is really the only thing that is keeping my hopes up for this development.