Downtown Major Grocer

[cloud713]

i dont know the logistics/regulations behind this.. but when i lived in Waco i had a loft downtown, and noticed there was a lack of grocery options in the area. it was always a fantasy of mine to convert one of the old flat roofed warehouses in downtown to an urban format grocery store, and put a rooftop garden above it with access for shoppers to come up and pick out their fruits and vegetables, straight off the plant. it doesnt get any fresher than that. maybe hire some local farmers to tend to the crops from time to time, and have a few assistants up there to cut whatever fruit/vegetable you select off of the plant (you dont want random people just ripping stuff off). idk, i think it would be a neat concept and picking the produce directly from the crops would be something novelty enough to make people want to keep coming back (not that they wouldnt have reason enough to return to a convenient urban format grocery store in an area that lacks grocery) and make it unique.

well i pretty much just gave away one of my million dollar ideas.. if anyone has the money, have at it. just be sure to credit me..

sorry for the ramble.

[august948]

Well, a Whole Foods downtown would tend to give a net gain of zero in terms of a "large, affordable supermarket downtown" because WF is expensive and while I've never been to Phoenicia, I imagine there'd be overlap in products offered and customers served.

Furthermore, it would need to be amazingly popular with lots of foot traffic to go for a supermarket with nearly no surface parking, but if you were going to go for that, why not place it in the tunnels?

We all know that the food court at Commerce Towers is more or less dead, what if that area was gutted and replaced with a large-ish supermarket? It might draw more people to Commerce Towers (hence, more people downtown) and bring life to a corner of the tunnels otherwise neglected. I mean, there's a lot of logistics issues there (time opening, accessibility), but the idea intrigues me.

 

The problems with the tunnels are lack of visibility from the street and the tunnel hours, which are pretty much M-F, 9 to 6 or so.  If you could rely on only shoppers shopping during their lunch breaks, that might work.  But, a tunnel level/connection might be workable if the store is two levels, one street and one tunnel so you get a street presence and don't have to take up a built-up level above ground.  Probably would help if it was located near a light rail stop to expand it's potential customer base.

 

I suspect though, that you need to reach some level of local residents within a geographic area in order to make it feasible.  The major grocery chains have experience with that in other urban markets and no doubt already have a good idea of the criteria that need to be met in order to make a go of it.  As soon as those criteria are met, you'll start seeing stuff pop up.

 

[IronTiger]

How did Midtown, then, get a Fiesta in the late 1980s (1988 according to articles) and a Randalls then? Midtown was in decline for a lot of the latter part of the 20th century, and lost a lot of houses. (I don't know when the Randalls was built, HCAD is returning 2225 Louisiana as a home in Deer Park), and yet it's had two grocery stores for a number of years?

 

EDIT: I found out that Fiesta actually sits on land owned by Sears, and when it opened, Sears coordinated an interior spruce-up with the opening. While it's kinda cool that Fiesta opened as a complement to Sears, it's a safe bet that Fiesta will outlast it.

[august948]

Both are located in areas that are, or were, mostly residential.  Grocers don't need a really big geographic area to draw from, as evidenced by two heb's, one (used to be three) randall's, two super walmarts, one kroger (used to be two), one fiesta, one sprouts, and one whole foods all on the stretch of Westheimer from the Galleria to Eldridge (about 11 or 12 miles).  I don't think that downtown has gotten to the level of residents yet that a grocer is comfortable with in order to spend the greater amount that is required to do an urban store format.  It's coming, though, sooner or later.

[UtterlyUrban]

Folks in NYC are used to the higher prices and inconveniences associated with having to shop at the corner grocer(s). If you are coming here from a city like that or are a hard-core urbanista then you might be willing to make the sacrifices. But if you are used to lower prices and the convenience of having everything you need at one stop, like most people are in Houston, then you'll balk at doing it that way. That's why Houston needs, and eventually will get, major grocers in or near downtown, providing the population base is there.

I've also heard that NYC has policies in place that discourage large grocers from moving in. Not sure if that's accurate or not. Another big thing in NYC is grocery delivery which, frankly, I'd be inclined to use as my first option if I lived there.

Hoston already has a "major grocery" "near" downtown. It's called Randall's and Fiesta.... Both in mid-town. There is also a whole foods a couple of miles away (closer than many suburban stores are to suburban homes). If someone wants to build one in EaDo, great!

But.......

I continue to fail to see why a big box grocery store is needed in downtown. Others legitimately disagree with me but, if one wants to go to a big box grocer, go..... Drive the 3 miles just like you would in suburbia. But, downtown should develop as an urban core built around walking and trains. Big box grocers are inconsistent with walking and trains as it is not really possible to carry 12 bags on groceries on your 5 block walk home. Smaller grocers .... Where you walk to several times a week and buy a bag of stuff..... Are what urban living (I.e. DOWNTOWN) is about. It is not for everyone but it defines one aspect of the urban experience.

[ArchFan]

From reading past discussions about midtown, my expectation is that a lot of people (well, at least those into the "urban-living" concept) would welcome a traditional grocery as long as it didn't appear in the suburban format ... i.e., with a big surface parking lot in front.   Remember all the complaints about suburban-style development in midtown (CVS, Randall's, etc)?

 

It will be interesting to see whether (or how soon) the downtown population density will encourage development of either style of property nearby.  Perhaps it's likely that the first would be a suburban-style HEB (or the like) in the Eado area near the light rail, such that downtowners would also shop there?

[txn4art]

UtterluUrban, I don't know where you're located, but have you actually talked with residents of Eado, the near East End or downtown about where they buy groceries? Many folks don't like the Randall's on Louisiana (high prices, limited selection) or the Fiesta on San Jacinto (homeless hangout, scary at night, vehicle vandalism). A good location for a major grocery store to serve both urban apartment dwellers and all the east side neighborhoods would be south of the BBVA stadium but within a block or so of the Green Line. Surely there are still a few underused parcels of land left around there.

[Ross]

How did Midtown, then, get a Fiesta in the late 1980s (1988 according to articles) and a Randalls then? Midtown was in decline for a lot of the latter part of the 20th century, and lost a lot of houses. (I don't know when the Randalls was built, HCAD is returning 2225 Louisiana as a home in Deer Park), and yet it's had two grocery stores for a number of years?

 

EDIT: I found out that Fiesta actually sits on land owned by Sears, and when it opened, Sears coordinated an interior spruce-up with the opening. While it's kinda cool that Fiesta opened as a complement to Sears, it's a safe bet that Fiesta will outlast it.

 

I don't know when the Fiesta opened, but the Randalls opened after the first flurry of development in Midtown had sort of settled. The HCAD property address is 2200 Milam, and the store opened in 2002 or 2003. Before that, we pretty much had to drive to Kroger on Gray, or the Kroger on Montrose.

 

The first real development East of Main was Baldwin Square, which came along in 1998. Development West of Main was mostly apartments. By the time the Randalls came along, we were desperate for a place to buy groceries that wasn't a few miles away.

 

[august948]

Hoston already has a "major grocery" "near" downtown. It's called Randall's and Fiesta.... Both in mid-town. There is also a whole foods a couple of miles away (closer than many suburban stores are to suburban homes). If someone wants to build one in EaDo, great!

But.......

I continue to fail to see why a big box grocery store is needed in downtown. Others legitimately disagree with me but, if one wants to go to a big box grocer, go..... Drive the 3 miles just like you would in suburbia. But, downtown should develop as an urban core built around walking and trains. Big box grocers are inconsistent with walking and trains as it is not really possible to carry 12 bags on groceries on your 5 block walk home. Smaller grocers .... Where you walk to several times a week and buy a bag of stuff..... Are what urban living (I.e. DOWNTOWN) is about. It is not for everyone but it defines one aspect of the urban experience.

 

You can already take the train to at least one Walmart, so that's covered.  Plus the midtown Randalls and Fiesta are only a couple of blocks from rail stations.  So, you might be right in that a large grocer doesn't necessarily need to be in downtown.  As for the 12 bags of stuff, here's what they do in NYC...

 

 

[HoustonMidtown]

UtterluUrban, I don't know where you're located, but have you actually talked with residents of Eado, the near East End or downtown about where they buy groceries? Many folks don't like the Randall's on Louisiana (high prices, limited selection) or the Fiesta on San Jacinto (homeless hangout, scary at night, vehicle vandalism). A good location for a major grocery store to serve both urban apartment dwellers and all the east side neighborhoods would be south of the BBVA stadium but within a block or so of the Green Line. Surely there are still a few underused parcels of land left around there.

 

I live in EaDo....I go to the Montrose HEB or the new Kroger on Studemont, mainly out of habit -- I rarely go to the Randalls in Midtown and never even think about the Fiesta.  There is a Krogers on Polk (about 4 blocks away) which I have not visited either.  I also visit Phoenicia and Specs quite a bit.  I wouldn't be upset if a new grocery store showed up somewhere in EaDo (I expect one will eventually), but there are plenty of options today...

[UtterlyUrban]

UtterluUrban, I don't know where you're located, but have you actually talked with residents of Eado, the near East End or downtown about where they buy groceries? Many folks don't like the Randall's on Louisiana (high prices, limited selection) or the Fiesta on San Jacinto (homeless hangout, scary at night, vehicle vandalism). A good location for a major grocery store to serve both urban apartment dwellers and all the east side neighborhoods would be south of the BBVA stadium but within a block or so of the Green Line. Surely there are still a few underused parcels of land left around there.

I live downtown. I have talked to many residents in downtown. They are my neighbors.

If one wants to walk to a store in Houston, they like them close and convenient. If one wants to drive to a big box grocer, there are several within 5 miles. (Closer than some suburbanites have stores).

Now, if somebody wants to put a big suburban grocer in EaDo, smack where you mention it, that's fine. That is not "downtown" and this thread is about "downtown" grocers.

As to folks not liking the two existing big box grocers in mid-town, that is a preference issue Not an infrastructure issue.

[mollusk]

I suspect that as the impending wave of residential opens up, the economics of reviving the Superette downtown will start to look appealing in one or more places.  Will it be a duplicate of a suburban HEB/Kroger/Fiesta/what have you folded on top of or under its parking and slid under a tower?  Unlikely.  Could it be a revival of the HEB Pantry concept, renamed... could be.  Phonecia ain't small, but it's limited in scope.  I'm sure that there will be more of a market for paper towels and cat litter and Campbell's Soup than CVS can currently sustain.

[Nate99]

The market will support whatever it will. Someone has the numbers on how many residents downtown will add with all the new construction, but I would not not be surprised if it turned out that downtown dwelling Houstonians still do not behave like Mahattanites.

 

To those that find that model of urbanism an ideal lifestyle, I wonder why they don't move there. Houston will be denser, it would appear, but it won't be New York or San Francisco or Austin or Omaha or anywhere else. If I saw a city that looked like it had meaningful upside to Houston to the way I wanted to live, I'd look in to relocating, but I'm a cheap bastard that is fairly immune to the charms of aesthetics, so this is my place.

 

 

[de la rosa]

Seems to me the grocery that would stand to thrive the most in the downtown area would be Whole Foods.  If people can afford to pay downtown rents, they can definitely afford to buy WF groceries on a regular basis.

[LS27]

Looks like at least one of the market square towers may get a grocery store. This is from the Hines Market Square tower description:

"Unique feature: Built in a historic district, the high-rise’s base incorporates historical architectural features, like brick and cast stone, while the tower will be built out of modern glass and steel. The ground level will feature retail — including a restaurant, café and possibly a boutique grocery store — as well as a pocket park,"

As for the other Market Square Tower:

http://www.bizjournals.com/houston/news/2014/07/16/new-details-revealed-in-market-square-tower.html?page=all

Will at least one of them get one? Is there a possibility that both will?

[IronTiger]

Maybe it's just my perception, but I find on Swamplot, at least, griping whenever an inner loop strip center is being built (a few in the Heights, mostly), as if "suburbia" was creeping into their Inner Loop world.

 

If a block-size Kroger or H-E-B were built into downtown, even if they were reasonably well aesthetically blended into the streetscape, you'd hear griping that it's "too suburban" or something, and would become a homeless gathering spot before too long.

 

What I think it really boils down to is where you live has benefits and drawbacks. You can't live in a decently large suburban house with a yard and expect there to be shopping, dining, mass transit, and entertainment within a few blocks, nor could you live in an apartment at least 10 stories above the ground and want your large, cheap supermarket like suburbanites have.

[UtterlyUrban]

What I think it really boils down to is where you live has benefits and drawbacks. You can't live in a decently large suburban house with a yard and expect there to be shopping, dining, mass transit, and entertainment within a few blocks, nor could you live in an apartment at least 10 stories above the ground and want your large, cheap supermarket like suburbanites have.

Well said.

Within about a five mile radius of downtown right now, today, we already have several large grocers. Fiesta, Randall's, Whole Foods, Central Market, and likely others. Many suburbanites don't have grocers this close. It seems that some folks want to live in a "dense" city but want to have a select number of suburban amenities. OK, I get that. But a grocer that takes up an entire DOWNTOWN (the point of this thread) urban block may not be the best use.

If folks want a huge grocer in EaDo, I am all for it. If folks want a huge grocer on the near Northside, terrific! If folks want a THIRD large grocer in midtown, great. But this thread is about downtown and I don't understand why downtown needs a big box grocer.

That said, I would love to have a grocer or two, in addition to Phoenica, put an urban-concept store (I.e. Smaller scale, integrated with the neighborhood around it, in downtown. Competition is good.

[Sparrow]

Well said.

Within about a five mile radius of downtown right now, today, we already have several large grocers. Fiesta, Randall's, Whole Foods, Central Market, and likely others. Many suburbanites don't have grocers this close. It seems that some folks want to live in a "dense" city but want to have a select number of suburban amenities. OK, I get that. But a grocer that takes up an entire DOWNTOWN (the point of this thread) urban block may not be the best use.

If folks want a huge grocer in EaDo, I am all for it. If folks want a huge grocer on the near Northside, terrific! If folks want a THIRD large grocer in midtown, great. But this thread is about downtown and I don't understand why downtown needs a big box grocer.

That said, I would love to have a grocer or two, in addition to Phoenica, put an urban-concept store (I.e. Smaller scale, integrated with the neighborhood around it, in downtown. Competition is good.

 

Legitimacy--that's why Downtown needs a "big box" grocery store. Even Manhattan has stores like Home Depot and Kmart and Whole Foods. How can Downtown Houston expect to have a legitimate residential population with only a specialty grocer? A full size grocer isn't a "suburban amenity"--not in today's commercialized America at least. With 5k apartments coming on line within the next few years it's not a matter of if a grocer will come Downtown, it's who, when, and how many.

[IronTiger]

Legitimacy--that's why Downtown needs a "big box" grocery store. Even Manhattan has stores like Home Depot and Kmart and Whole Foods. How can Downtown Houston expect to have a legitimate residential population with only a specialty grocer? A full size grocer isn't a "suburban amenity"--not in today's commercialized America at least. With 5k apartments coming on line within the next few years it's not a matter of if a grocer will come Downtown, it's who, when, and how many.

 

I don't think Manhattan is a good example for downtown stores: it's substantially larger, and way, way, denser. I can't think of a major American city outside of the East Coast that has anything close to what some of you are suggesting. Any ideas?

[Slick Vik]

I don't think Manhattan is a good example for downtown stores: it's substantially larger, and way, way, denser. I can't think of a major American city outside of the East Coast that has anything close to what some of you are suggesting. Any ideas?

Chicago, San Francisco

[IronTiger]

Well, Chicago is still one of the dense, East Coast type cities (it doesn't have to be on the water to be EC), and SF is older than most Southern cities, and even it has a specialty gourmet grocer at best.

[Texasota]

Whole Foods has stores that would work downtown, and they carry cat food so they meet my definition of a full service grocer. 

Target does as well.

[mollusk]

San Francisco has at least two Safeways in or near the financial district - one is within a couple blocks of the Ferry Building.  Granted, you've got to get west of Van Ness to get one with a parking lot...

[IronTiger]

The Safeway in S.F. seems like a poor example to use. It's very small, and despite being updated, is also very old (check the logo, though it isn't all that old, it was a gourmet market called "Bon Appetit" back in the 1980s, according to Yelp). Most chains have a few stores that they keep like this, in Ohio, there's an amazingly small and dated Kroger tucked in the downtown area of the city, and H-E-B has a location in Brownsville that is very small as well (less than a city block). But they don't build like this anymore, and if you actually looked at the reviews of that Safeway, it gets reviews mostly for its deli, but its actual attributes as a grocery store, including price (well, not if you compare it to WF), freshness (the produce selection isn't good), or selection. To imagine a good analogy, it would be as if Randalls at Midtown was a sixth of the size, because that's more or less what the Financial District Safeway is like.

 

Whole Foods might work in theory, but it's just not population density, it's median income as well, and that would require a lot of rich downtown folks.

[mollusk]

Fine.  Go to the nice new one on 4th at King then.  It's not a bad walk.

[scarface]

 Smaller grocers .... Where you walk to several times a week and buy a bag of stuff..... Are what urban living (I.e. DOWNTOWN) is about. It is not for everyone but it defines one aspect of the urban experience.

 

Yeah in New York (Brooklyn, downtown Manhattan, etc, i did not see any big bog grocery stores. Just small grocery stores in small bodega style storefronts.

 

I think people want Houston to become Seattle.

[IronTiger]

Fine.  Go to the nice new one on 4th at King then.  It's not a bad walk.

In terms of location, that's about equivalent to the Randalls at Midtown anyway. Now, while I admit my "sacrifice 5/6 of the Randalls for a slightly closer store" was a bit cynical, how's this?

 

The Safeway in the Financial District used to be a specialty grocer. What if Phoenicia closed and became a Kroger? Well, it would be a big shame, but there would be an affordable grocer in the area that would be full-line...

[Texasota]

except that Phoenicia is already not particularly expensive; it's just doesn't sell certain things like pet products. 

 

As for Whole Foods requiring a certain median income, have you not noticed how expensive all these new buildings are? 

ALL of the new population downtown will easily be able to afford to shop at Whole Foods. 

[arche_757]

[and most if not all previous posts in this thread]

The Safeway in S.F. seems like a poor example to use. It's very small, and despite being updated, is also very old (check the logo, though it isn't all that old, it was a gourmet market called "Bon Appetit" back in the 1980s, according to Yelp). Most chains have a few stores that they keep like this, in Ohio, there's an amazingly small and dated Kroger tucked in the downtown area of the city, and H-E-B has a location in Brownsville that is very small as well (less than a city block). But they don't build like this anymore, and if you actually looked at the reviews of that Safeway, it gets reviews mostly for its deli, but its actual attributes as a grocery store, including price (well, not if you compare it to WF), freshness (the produce selection isn't good), or selection. To imagine a good analogy, it would be as if Randalls at Midtown was a sixth of the size, because that's more or less what the Financial District Safeway is like.

 

Whole Foods might work in theory, but it's just not population density, it's median income as well, and that would require a lot of rich downtown folks.

 So your answer is: "Nothing works for Downtown Houston."  "Never will work."

 

Talk about a defeatist attitude.  Do you ever not argue for arguments sake?

 

What do you suggest?

[IronTiger]

 So your answer is: "Nothing works for Downtown Houston."  "Never will work."

 

Talk about a defeatist attitude.  Do you ever not argue for arguments sake?

 

What do you suggest?

Whoa now. That's a bit taking a LOT of things out of context. First, there seems to be confusion on what people want in downtown. "A full-line store, oh, but it can't be TOO large and even the parking lot for the Midtown Randalls is too large".

 

Phoenicia is there, and what's wrong with it, really? Now, I've never been to Phoenicia, but if it's too small, there's not really a "huge" example for a downtown store anyway. If it's too expensive, Whole Foods (which could work, maybe GreenStreet) wouldn't answer that, and it lacks a pet department, a pet supply store located in the tunnels or adjacent (like the Shops at Houston Center) could solve that.

 

I even tossed around the idea of a supermarket in the tunnels before that was shot down as being too poorly-accessible.

 

One more idea: Aldi could work just about anywhere.