totheskies Posted October 14, 2008 Share Posted October 14, 2008 I've asked this question on the East End forum, but I think a "decent" grocer is even more desperately needed in DOWNTOWN. I'd love to hear everyone's thoughts. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
musicman Posted October 14, 2008 Share Posted October 14, 2008 critical mass isn't downtown yet and with the forclosures you see in many of the downtown lofts, it'll be a while still. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kylejack Posted October 14, 2008 Share Posted October 14, 2008 I live on St. Emanuel near Clay.Midtown (3 blocks off downtown) has Randall's and the underground parking is a nice touch, but man those prices are crazy. I usually go to Kroger on W Gray. I agree, though, it would be nice to see some warehouses on East End razed and replaced with a grocery store. There's a couple little markets further down St. Emanuel, but I figure they're mostly niche ethnic offerings. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
totheskies Posted October 14, 2008 Author Share Posted October 14, 2008 I live on St. Emanuel near Clay.Midtown (3 blocks off downtown) has Randall's and the underground parking is a nice touch, but man those prices are crazy. I usually go to Kroger on W Gray. I agree, though, it would be nice to see some warehouses on East End razed and replaced with a grocery store. There's a couple little markets further down St. Emanuel, but I figure they're mostly niche ethnic offerings.Yes, you're responding to your options, but do you ever walk to Randall's?? What if a grocery store were located right on the other side of the GRB, like a Central Market. That's in walking distance from you. Would you be more likely to go there? I struggle with this concept of "critical mass" for an urban area like Houston. Downtown itself may not have "enough residents" to warrant for a grocery store, but what about the near East End? Near Northside? Midtown/4th ward. Last time I checked, these areas were filling in like crazy... there's got to be 30-50,000 people that live in the immediate vicinity of downtown. That sounds like critical density to me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kylejack Posted October 14, 2008 Share Posted October 14, 2008 Yes, you're responding to your options, but do you ever walk to Randall's?? What if a grocery store were located right on the other side of the GRB, like a Central Market. That's in walking distance from you. Would you be more likely to go there? I struggle with this concept of "critical mass" for an urban area like Houston. Downtown itself may not have "enough residents" to warrant for a grocery store, but what about the near East End? Near Northside? Midtown/4th ward. Last time I checked, these areas were filling in like crazy... there's got to be 30-50,000 people that live in the immediate vicinity of downtown. That sounds like critical density to me.Much of East End would not shop at a high end grocery store like Central Market. Hell, much of East End is largely deserted. Midtown would be more interested, but I don't know that its enough people to support a grocery store, and if you stray too far toward Montrose there are plenty of other grocery options.I mean do I want it? Sure, but its not going to happen imo. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. Chenevert Posted October 14, 2008 Share Posted October 14, 2008 Randall's in Midtown would do more business if they lowered their prices. Its great for quick items on your way home from work, but I still drive to the Kroger on West Gray for my main shopping. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kylejack Posted October 14, 2008 Share Posted October 14, 2008 Randall's in Midtown would do more business if they lowered their prices. Its great for quick items on your way home from work, but I still drive to the Kroger on West Gray for my main shopping.Yep. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daniepwils Posted October 14, 2008 Share Posted October 14, 2008 Whole Foods please. So when Skyr is sold in Texas I can have access to it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
editor Posted October 14, 2008 Share Posted October 14, 2008 I struggle with this concept of "critical mass" for an urban area like Houston. Downtown itself may not have "enough residents" to warrant for a grocery store, but what about the near East End? Near Northside? Midtown/4th ward. Last time I checked, these areas were filling in like crazy... there's got to be 30-50,000 people that live in the immediate vicinity of downtown. That sounds like critical density to me.77002: 13,28977003: 9,19577004: 30,37977006: 18,87577010: 7677019: 15,640Total: 87,454These are 2000 numbers, but they're the ones that business decisions will be made on until the new set comes out for 2010. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Subdude Posted October 15, 2008 Share Posted October 15, 2008 77002: 13,28977003: 9,19577004: 30,37977006: 18,87577010: 7677019: 15,640Total: 87,454These are 2000 numbers, but they're the ones that business decisions will be made on until the new set comes out for 2010.A large proportion of the downtown population is imprisoned. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kylejack Posted October 15, 2008 Share Posted October 15, 2008 A large proportion of the downtown population is imprisoned.The cheapest way to live in a downtown highrise! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CoolBuddy06 Posted October 15, 2008 Share Posted October 15, 2008 77002: 13,28977003: 9,19577004: 30,37977006: 18,87577010: 7677019: 15,640Total: 87,454These are 2000 numbers, but they're the ones that business decisions will be made on until the new set comes out for 2010.Much of 77004 is third ward. I'd reckon with 77007 more than 77004. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
totheskies Posted October 15, 2008 Author Share Posted October 15, 2008 Much of East End would not shop at a high end grocery store like Central Market. Hell, much of East End is largely deserted. Midtown would be more interested, but I don't know that its enough people to support a grocery store, and if you stray too far toward Montrose there are plenty of other grocery options.I mean do I want it? Sure, but its not going to happen imo.Deserted?? In comparison to what? East End has blocks that are developed, and blocks that are not. It is a mixed neighborhood that still has a large group of industrial workspace, but it is not deserted. Your area has a few empty lots next to it, but you should walk a few more blocks south. There's plenty of people that live there, and the area is rapidly growing. Like ALL areas of the city of Houston, there are going to be empty lots. But I would not call that deserted. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kylejack Posted October 15, 2008 Share Posted October 15, 2008 (edited) Deserted?? In comparison to what? East End has blocks that are developed, and blocks that are not. It is a mixed neighborhood that still has a large group of industrial workspace, but it is not deserted. Your area has a few empty lots next to it, but you should walk a few more blocks south. There's plenty of people that live there, and the area is rapidly growing. Like ALL areas of the city of Houston, there are going to be empty lots. But I would not call that deserted. I said parts of it are deserted, and significant portions are, and that's in comparison to most other parts of town. I've attached a map of the zip code, and only 9,195 people lived here as of last Census. Its not just isolated blocks. There are wide swaths of unused warehouse space in this area, and yes I do walk to Thelma's for barbecue and further, I've seen a good portion of the area. But again, I reiterate that my neighborhood does not have a significant portion of people that would shop at a high end grocery store, which are the only ones you listed. Well, except for Wal-Mart, who seems to have a pretty clear policy of refusing to come inside the Loop. These grocery stores would have higher appeal with the Midtown crowd. Edited October 15, 2008 by kylejack Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
editor Posted October 15, 2008 Share Posted October 15, 2008 A large proportion of the downtown population is imprisoned.Excellent point. Do census numbers include prisons in the ZIP code data, or are they broken out separately. I looked on the Census.gov web site and couldn't find a way to separate for residence type. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CoolBuddy06 Posted October 15, 2008 Share Posted October 15, 2008 (edited) Excellent point. Do census numbers include prisons in the ZIP code data, or are they broken out separately. I looked on the Census.gov web site and couldn't find a way to separate for residence type.Looks like the imprisoned are treated like residents according to http://www.prisonersofthecensus.org/. Edited October 15, 2008 by CoolBuddy06 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daniepwils Posted October 15, 2008 Share Posted October 15, 2008 77010: 76 (These must be all the people who live in the 4 Seasons, as that is the only residential area in that zip code).77002: 13,289 seems a bit high (must include prisoners) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KinkaidAlum Posted October 16, 2008 Share Posted October 16, 2008 77010: 76 (These must be all the people who live in the 4 Seasons, as that is the only residential area in that zip code).77002: 13,289 seems a bit high (must include prisoners)77010 is basically just the Houston Center area but it does include the Four Seasons condos. Also, One Park Place will be in the 77010 zip code. With 347 units, even with just a conservative estimate of 1.3 people per unit, you'd add 451 residents at 100% occupancy.77002's 2000 population figure includes prisoners. That's why the sex breakdown was 81% male!Remember also that 77002 includes almost all of northern midtown. Buildings like The Rise, 2222 Smith, Post Midtown Square, The Edge, and Camden's new City Center apts. are all in 77002. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CoolBuddy06 Posted October 16, 2008 Share Posted October 16, 2008 77010 is basically just the Houston Center area but it does include the Four Seasons condos. Also, One Park Place will be in the 77010 zip code. With 347 units, even with just a conservative estimate of 1.3 people per unit, you'd add 451 residents at 100% occupancy.77002's 2000 population figure includes prisoners. That's why the sex breakdown was 81% male! Remember also that 77002 includes almost all of northern midtown. Buildings like The Rise, 2222 Smith, Post Midtown Square, The Edge, and Camden's new City Center apts. are all in 77002. Ok so how do we get them to poll for their favourite grocery store? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TexasVines Posted October 16, 2008 Share Posted October 16, 2008 77002: 13,28977003: 9,19577004: 30,37977006: 18,87577010: 7677019: 15,640Total: 87,454These are 2000 numbers, but they're the ones that business decisions will be made on until the new set comes out for 2010.actually the census tries to keep a decent running tally now and I am sure retailers and really anyone esle can get those numbers if desired Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
N Judah Posted October 17, 2008 Share Posted October 17, 2008 (edited) I am sure developers know everything about anyone who lives in those areas. If potential demand existed for a new grocery store, that store would already be there by now. Edited October 17, 2008 by N Judah Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
totheskies Posted October 20, 2008 Author Share Posted October 20, 2008 I said parts of it are deserted, and significant portions are, and that's in comparison to most other parts of town. I've attached a map of the zip code, and only 9,195 people lived here as of last Census. Its not just isolated blocks. There are wide swaths of unused warehouse space in this area, and yes I do walk to Thelma's for barbecue and further, I've seen a good portion of the area.But again, I reiterate that my neighborhood does not have a significant portion of people that would shop at a high end grocery store, which are the only ones you listed. Well, except for Wal-Mart, who seems to have a pretty clear policy of refusing to come inside the Loop. These grocery stores would have higher appeal with the Midtown crowd.So it's clear we have different definitions of "deserted". Many of those warehouses still have people that work there, and many of them are currently "deserted" b/c they are being remodeled into housing. Would you care to assume that 77003 zip code has gained any people since 2000?? If I were a betting man, I'd say it's gained well over 1,000, and by 2010 we may be looking at much more. We also have different definitions of what is a high-end grocer. To me, only Whole Foods would fall into that category. Central Market has some "high-end qualities, but many of it's prices are comparable to HEB. Wal Mart Neighborhood has the exact same stock as a regular Super Wal Mart. I'd be willing to bet that many people in your neighborhood do shop at Kroger, and they might even shop at the Kroger on West Gray. The Kroger at Cullen and Polk is the closest, but it is sub-standard for modern Kroger stores. I shop there for one-item trips only, but when I am on a major grocery run, I go to Wal Mart or Kroger (West Gray). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kylejack Posted October 22, 2008 Share Posted October 22, 2008 So it's clear we have different definitions of "deserted". Many of those warehouses still have people that work there, and many of them are currently "deserted" b/c they are being remodeled into housing. Would you care to assume that 77003 zip code has gained any people since 2000?? If I were a betting man, I'd say it's gained well over 1,000, and by 2010 we may be looking at much more. We also have different definitions of what is a high-end grocer. To me, only Whole Foods would fall into that category. Central Market has some "high-end qualities, but many of it's prices are comparable to HEB. Wal Mart Neighborhood has the exact same stock as a regular Super Wal Mart. I'd be willing to bet that many people in your neighborhood do shop at Kroger, and they might even shop at the Kroger on West Gray. The Kroger at Cullen and Polk is the closest, but it is sub-standard for modern Kroger stores. I shop there for one-item trips only, but when I am on a major grocery run, I go to Wal Mart or Kroger (West Gray).Thanks for mentioning the Kroger at Polk and Cullen. I wasn't aware of it and it will make for a good alternative.Central Market is absolutely without a doubt a high-end grocery store. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rsb320 Posted October 22, 2008 Share Posted October 22, 2008 Even a small HEB Pantry, like the one in Bellaire would be nice. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Subdude Posted November 4, 2008 Share Posted November 4, 2008 There is a new chain in the southwest called Fresh & Easy, the idea of which is smaller stores than usual to make shopping more convenient. Would something like this be more appropriate for downtown than a typical large footprint store? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LTAWACS Posted November 4, 2008 Share Posted November 4, 2008 There is a new chain in the southwest called Fresh & Easy, the idea of which is smaller stores than usual to make shopping more convenient. Would something like this be more appropriate for downtown than a typical large footprint store?Not sure. How small are we talking about? There are already some convenience stores in downtown... if these new stores are too small there may be a blurred line between the two. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheNiche Posted November 4, 2008 Share Posted November 4, 2008 I am sure developers know everything about anyone who lives in those areas. If potential demand existed for a new grocery store, that store would already be there by now.Take it from me: most retail developers don't know nearly as much about infill housing and demographic changes as you might think. It is difficult enough to find a half-decent infill site, but then undertaking the cost and effort to do site planning and ultimately to sell the concept to a big corporate retailer with a sales projection model that is based from crappy Claritas demographics is an extremely difficult proposition....never mind the short-term issues with the economy, retail sales, the lack of credit, or that land sellers aren't backing off very much from their pricing expectations.Editor is probably right. The 2010 Census will help--a lot. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
roadrunner Posted November 5, 2008 Share Posted November 5, 2008 On the corner of Main St. and Preston (or Prarie, can't remember) the other day I saw signs for a cafe/market that is coming soon. Probably not a grocer, and I don't know anything about it, but it may be something unique to downtown. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sevfiv Posted November 5, 2008 Share Posted November 5, 2008 On the corner of Main St. and Preston (or Prarie, can't remember) the other day I saw signs for a cafe/market that is coming soon. Probably not a grocer, and I don't know anything about it, but it may be something unique to downtown.That's probably the old Byrd's store location that was mentioned somewhere around here...can't find any permits yet, but I look forward to seeing what it'll be Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rsb320 Posted November 5, 2008 Share Posted November 5, 2008 That's probably the old Byrd's store location that was mentioned somewhere around here...can't find any permits yet, but I look forward to seeing what it'll beThe sign says Byrd's Cafe and Market, Spring 2009. It looks like it's going to be an upscale deli and market. You might be able to find hamburger buns there, but they're not going to be Sunbeam (IMO). There's no building activity going on in there right now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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