Victory Park In Dallas

[Trae]

Exactly.

They royally f***ed up with the design I think.

Edited February 16, 2009 by Trae

[TxDave]

Honestly, I think Victory has a bad design. The development around the American Airlines Stadium does not really fit in with the stadium. If they wanted the Times Square look, they shouldn't have had the plaza where you have to walk up stairs to get to it. The development should have instead revolved around the street where people can see it.

No doubt that Victory suffers from several design flaws. For example, the plaza 'with stairs' exists because it was built around the existing American Airlines Center plaza (designed before Victory was even conceived). The plaza even has an uneven surface for in-ground fountain jets that are no longer used. Perhaps it could have been redesigned/rebuilt, but even despite the flaws the plaza still functions reasonably well.

A bigger problem with the development was the upscale mix of retailers that initially populated the area. Aside from being vulnerable to the faltering economy, the limited clientele was likely turned off by fighting event traffic and parking to patronize the high-end establishments. On the flip side, many of the arena event attendees, a built in clientele, were priced out of even considering a visit to the neighboring businesses. Ultimately, several of the original tenants have shut down.

However, on a positive note (if you see it that way), the developer has recognized that problem and is seeking to diversify with 'less-pricey' establishments. More details are available here:

http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcontent/dw...ry.370eba7.html

Maybe this will allow the development appeal to a broader base of the population (area visitors and nearby residents) and be successful as the core of urban neighborhood.

[dfwcre8tive]

Some news from Victory Park:

Hard Rock Cafe plans a return gig in Dallas

Restaurant/concert venue scheduled to open in July inside Victory Park condo tower

07:57 PM CDT on Tuesday, March 17, 2009

By KAREN ROBINSON-JACOBS / The Dallas Morning News

krobinson@dallasnews.com

http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcontent/dw...k.45d95d0a.html

The Hard Rock Cafe is planning to return to Dallas this summer, opening in Dallas

[Houston19514]

No doubt that Victory suffers from several design flaws. For example, the plaza 'with stairs' exists because it was built around the existing American Airlines Center plaza (designed before Victory was even conceived). The plaza even has an uneven surface for in-ground fountain jets that are no longer used. Perhaps it could have been redesigned/rebuilt, but even despite the flaws the plaza still functions reasonably well.

Why don't they use the fountain jets? Is it just because it's not worth the money to operate them if nobody is there to see it? Or did it occur to them that having fountain jets in the middle of a plaza in which you are trying to encourage the gathering of people was not the best idea ever? ;-)

[JasonDFW]

Why don't they use the fountain jets? Is it just because it's not worth the money to operate them if nobody is there to see it? Or did it occur to them that having fountain jets in the middle of a plaza in which you are trying to encourage the gathering of people was not the best idea ever? ;-)

The fountain jets were there before Victory Plaza was there. I really think they no longer serve a purpose.

Jason

[Houston19514]

The fountain jets were there before Victory Plaza was there. I really think they no longer serve a purpose.

Jason

How so? What purpose did they serve pre-Plaza that they no longer serve?

[scarface]

I've read many articles about Victory Park basically almost Vacant now. They had 3-4 restaurants close back to back within the last 2 months and some more closures scheduled soon. Hillwood has actually surrendered the property to someone else. Not that i'm gloating or anything seeing how it was once referred to as the "Time Square of Texas", but i am really sorry to hear that its currently going under. A child could point out the obvious mistakes in this development

First off the layout. The reasons stated for the closures in the reports were: The store fronts were too isolated, Parking was too expensive, Outrageous prices in the stores. The light rail line they extended out that way is in front of the AA Center. The Plaza sits behind the AA center and plus its in an inward development.

Now what can developers learn from all of this. Los Angeles's LA LIVE Project and Dallas Victory were built close to the same time and intended to serve the same basic purpose. LA LIVE project from what i hear is doing OK and Victory is currently holding on for dear life. It's starting to make me a little frightful for Houston Pavilions. That development too faces inward and feels somewhat isolated too from the rest of the Pedestrian areas. Proper signage should help this problem. Even though H/P hasn't really taken off yet due to the economy, does it seem like the design layout could possibly cause a problem? Hope not.

[Trae]

LA Live is actually holding up nicely during this economy.

[TheNiche]

I've read many articles about Victory Park basically almost Vacant now. They had 3-4 restaurants close back to back within the last 2 months and some more closures scheduled soon. Hillwood has actually surrendered the property to someone else. Not that i'm gloating or anything seeing how it was once referred to as the "Time Square of Texas", but i am really sorry to hear that its currently going under. A child could point out the obvious mistakes in this development

First off the layout. The reasons stated for the closures in the reports were: The store fronts were too isolated, Parking was too expensive, Outrageous prices in the stores. The light rail line they extended out that way is in front of the AA Center. The Plaza sits behind the AA center and plus its in an inward development.

Now what can developers learn from all of this. Los Angeles's LA LIVE Project and Dallas Victory were built close to the same time and intended to serve the same basic purpose. LA LIVE project from what i hear is doing OK and Victory is currently holding on for dear life. It's starting to make me a little frightful for Houston Pavilions. That development too faces inward and feels somewhat isolated too from the rest of the Pedestrian areas. Proper signage should help this problem. Even though H/P hasn't really taken off yet due to the economy, does it seem like the design layout could possibly cause a problem? Hope not.

Houston Pavilions' problems are twofold. Firstly, timing to the market couldn't have been worse, and product roll out was essentially botched. But more fundamentally, if the downtown retail market could support it in the first place then the City wouldn't have had to subsidize the retail component so heavily. Bayou Place and the Shops at Houston Center have always had difficulty with vacancy. There is no reason to believe that Houston Pavilions will function differently.

Victory has had a different kind of problem from HP, as well. It targeted a very wealthy customer base, which also tends to be somewhat older. In a down economy, top-earning demographics have a fairly more volatile income than do non-management non-entrepreneurial working stiffs of any other strata of society. If they're doing well, they're doing very well. And if they're doing poorly, they're doing very poorly.

We're architecture aficionados, here, so it's easy to think that the credit or blame for the success of a project is attributable to its spatial layout. There's some truth to that, but it is a very limited truth. When it comes right down to it, retail success is linked chiefly to employment and personal income, especially in an environment like downtown Houston where none of the competing retail spaces will never be so visible as a wide open shopping center off the interstate. Consumers that want to shop downtown really have to know and understand the scene, no matter what their destination, and so HP is not at any competitive disadvantage.

Edited June 1, 2009 by TheNiche

[lockmat]

what and where is LA Live? Dallas?

[musicman]

what and where is LA Live? Dallas?

Los Angeles's LA LIVE Project and Dallas Victory were built close to the same time and intended to serve the same basic purpose.

[citykid09]

what and where is LA Live? Dallas?

In LA. Its LA's version of Times Square.

Victory Park:

I wonder if they could modify the whole area so that people could see it better and get to it easier? I thought it was a bad design when I first saw it. The should have taken a look at Times Square before building it the way they did. All off the billboards should have been on the street where people could just walk and drive by. It would have been much more successful if they had designed a street similar to the way Times Square splits, and added large high and midrise buildings high dense all through out. Then sell add space on all of the buildings. It could have been much better than Times Square in my opinion.

By the way the Times Square area now has a few of the main streets in the area permanently closed of and turned into pedestrian malls. I saw it on the news earlier this week. So the way that we a use to seeing Times Square with cars on both sides of the median of buildings is no more.

http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/09151/97343...d=lifestyle.xml

Edited June 1, 2009 by citykid09

[Houston19514]

In LA. Its LA's version of Times Square.

Victory Park:

I wonder if they could modify the whole area so that people could see it better and get to it easier? I thought it was a bad design when I first saw it. The should have taken a look at Times Square before building it the way they did. All off the billboards should have been on the street where people could just walk and drive by. It would have been much more successful if they had designed a street similar to the way Times Square splits, and added large high and midrise buildings high dense all through out. Then sell add space on all of the buildings. It could have been much better than Times Square in my opinion.

By the way the Times Square area now has a few of the main streets in the area permanently closed of and turned into pedestrian malls. I saw it on the news earlier this week. So the way that we a use to seeing Times Square with cars on both sides of the median of buildings is no more.

http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/09151/97343...d=lifestyle.xml

To clarify and correct cityKid (who, to nobody's surprise, misread the linked article), only one street has been closed and turned into a pedestrian mall: Broadway, from 42 to 47th streets.

[citykid09]

To clarify and correct cityKid (who, to nobody's surprise, misread the linked article), only one street has been closed and turned into a pedestrian mall: Broadway, from 42 to 47th streets.

Well I did not read that particular article, I just found an article on it to share with you all. from what I read earlier, only on street in the Times Square area was closing off a section. But this street was closing off 2 sections total, one section is in another busy square that is not Times Square.

[scarface]

LA Live is actually holding up nicely during this economy.

You're agreeing with what i said in the opening post. LA LIVE is doing ok during this economy while Dallas Victory is struggling.

And for those of you who are unfamiliar with the LA LIVE project. You can take a glance at it on their website. See link below.

http://www.lalive.com/

Edited June 1, 2009 by scarface

[Houston19514]

Well I did not read that particular article, I just found an article on it to share with you all. from what I read earlier, only on street in the Times Square area was closing off a section. But this street was closing off 2 sections total, one section is in another busy square that is not Times Square.

and somehow that caused you to tell us that "the Times Square area now has a few of the main streets in the area permanently closed of and turned into pedestrian malls"??? Too funny.

[kylejack]

Geesh, why is everyone so hostile in this thread?

[EMME]

and somehow that caused you to tell us that "the Times Square area now has a few of the main streets in the area permanently closed of and turned into pedestrian malls"??? Too funny.

What is your deal?

[EMME]

Geesh, why is everyone so hostile in this thread?

I only see one hostile poster and that is Houston19514 don't know why he seems to be attacking CityKid.

[Houston19514]

I only see one hostile poster and that is Houston19514 don't know why he seems to be attacking CityKid.

Very simple. Because I'm tired of CityKid constantly posting lies and misinformation, and I'm going to continue to call him on it every chance I get.

[scarface]

I think people need to relax. Some of you all take this forum way too seriously like its your life! People who have lives probably will find that there's no need to stress and turn gray over what a stranger says on the internet! Unless you guys are getting paid which i'm sure not even the mods are!!!

Now back on topic. (I'm playin mod now! )

Edited June 2, 2009 by scarface

[drfunk]

We're architecture aficionados, here, so it's easy to think that the credit or blame for the success of a project is attributable to its spatial layout. There's some truth to that, but it is a very limited truth. When it comes right down to it, retail success is linked chiefly to employment and personal income, especially in an environment like downtown Houston where none of the competing retail spaces will never be so visible as a wide open shopping center off the interstate. Consumers that want to shop downtown really have to know and understand the scene, no matter what their destination, and so HP is not at any competitive disadvantage.

I don't think it's as complicated as that. I went to Victory Park a few months ago, and after paying something like $10 for parking on a Sunday afternoon, I had to walk around for literally 15 minutes before I could even figure out where the pedestrian areas were. The development is quite poorly designed. I had to use the Google Maps on my iPhone to find any of the specific stores I wanted to visit because there was no logical pedestrian access to them and the area is poorly signed and mapped.

[TheNiche]

I don't think it's as complicated as that. I went to Victory Park a few months ago, and after paying something like $10 for parking on a Sunday afternoon, I had to walk around for literally 15 minutes before I could even figure out where the pedestrian areas were. The development is quite poorly designed. I had to use the Google Maps on my iPhone to find any of the specific stores I wanted to visit because there was no logical pedestrian access to them and the area is poorly signed and mapped.

Destination retail in urban environment is just like that. Customers really have to know where they're going, and the first attempt is often wrought with problems.

[totheskies]

Victory Park and HP are two very different animals...

HP is three blocks... Victory is a whole district of places meant to link the West End and Uptown.

They went "all out" with Victory, and built super high-end stores that cater to a very small part of the population. HP is more of a mix (edit: it WILL be once all the stuff actually opens). I have no use for BCBG or XXI, but I do go to HP because of the House of Blues, Books-a-Million and just to stroll around.

Both of them are well situated with transit (especially when the permanent Green Line opens). But even as one who's been there a couple of times now, navigating around Victory is pretty tough. Houston Pavilions is a very simplistic project by comparison... park in the Garage, and take the skywalk into the development.

[scarface]

People have thought i was crazy on this forum for comparing the two developments. Even in the old thread I started a few years back, people thought i was comparing apples and oranges. But HP is the retail component of all the developments going on downtown Houston's eastside. East downtown also has experienced stadium development, residential, restaurants, and etc just like Dallas Victory.

I know people tend to think of HP as a small component compared to the collosial Victory but if alot of the individual components are similar. It's just Victory is a development that happened all at once which contains retail, residential, and stadium development while east downtown Houston has been building on slowly for the past 9-10 years. I'll illustrate:

MM park stadium opened in 2000

Toyota Center opened in 2003 while AA Center opened in 2001

Inn at the Ballpark residences, OPP just like The Cirque, and other Victory residences.

Shops @ Victory Plaza is comparable to HP

Discovery Green will be just like the new deck park planned for Dallas.

I know i already covered that in the old thread but it is some similarity. I just hope the poor inward design layout of H/P doesn't create a void to where the shops can't get noticed by foot traffic. I hope they still decide to do the Video Screen thing that was talked about once before in another thread.

Oh and for anyone who's interested, here's a link to a recent article about the current Struggles of Victory Park. It talks about how the buildings in VP can be uninviting versus the buildings in West Village which are more humble.

http://www.dmagazine.com/Home/2009/06/01/T...ctory_Park.aspx

Edited June 12, 2009 by scarface

[NThomas]

VP's real problem was it's focus was one a small demographic that already has multiple shopping/accommodation/housing options that really didn't set itself apart.

Victory Park's success lies in marketing & focusing on those visitors to the American Airlines Center (AAC) and House of Blues (HoB). Chili's is always packed whenever there's an event going on at the AAC and with Hard Rock Cafe opening in July (supposedly, I think it'll be more like August) the demographic (middle-class males 25-50) that goes to most events at either venue will have another option besides Chili's. Unfortunately,because of lack of signage and poor pedestrian flow throughout the development most HoB attendees have no clue there's a Chili's and end up in the just as empty West End Historical District. An AAC or HoB event goer isn't going to stop by a Quicksilver retail store on their way home, they want to grab a bit to eat at a Fox Sports Grill or ESPN Zone. While the Hard Rock Cafe is a step in the right direction, VP needs more restaurants like Chili's and sports focused retailers like HatWorld or team specific apparel retailers like a "Dallas Stars Store" and "Dallas Mavericks Store"

[totheskies]

VP's real problem was it's focus was one a small demographic that already has multiple shopping/accommodation/housing options that really didn't set itself apart.

Victory Park's success lies in marketing & focusing on those visitors to the American Airlines Center (AAC) and House of Blues (HoB). Chili's is always packed whenever there's an event going on at the AAC and with Hard Rock Cafe opening in July (supposedly, I think it'll be more like August) the demographic (middle-class males 25-50) that goes to most events at either venue will have another option besides Chili's. Unfortunately,because of lack of signage and poor pedestrian flow throughout the development most HoB attendees have no clue there's a Chili's and end up in the just as empty West End Historical District. An AAC or HoB event goer isn't going to stop by a Quicksilver retail store on their way home, they want to grab a bit to eat at a Fox Sports Grill or ESPN Zone. While the Hard Rock Cafe is a step in the right direction, VP needs more restaurants like Chili's and sports focused retailers like HatWorld or team specific apparel retailers like a "Dallas Stars Store" and "Dallas Mavericks Store"

Right on point here... and same thing goes for Houston/ HP. We have to start with the basic downtown visitors, figure out why they're coming in, and then cater to them. Trying to create a whole new purpose for a development is never going to be as sucessful as using a developement to fulfill a need. VP already has a big sports crowd, so start by getting businesses that they like and use, and then branch out into other areas.

[dfwcre8tive]

Hard Rock Cafe opens next week:

http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcontent/dws/dn/latestnews/stories/070709dnmethardrock.14b6d67e.html

Hillwood hands off Victory Park to the Germans:

http://blogs.dallasobserver.com/unfairpark/2009/07/now_victory_is_theirs_as_hillw.php

[NThomas]

Hard Rock Cafe opens next week:

http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcontent/dws/dn/latestnews/stories/070709dnmethardrock.14b6d67e.html

Hillwood hands off Victory Park to the Germans:

http://blogs.dallasobserver.com/unfairpark/2009/07/now_victory_is_theirs_as_hillw.php

HRC is exactly what VP needs. Throw in a Wich Wich, Corner Bakery, (dare I...) Burger King, Dunkin, etc. and VP might actually attract visitors into stay more then just for the basketball/hockey game.

[citizen4rmptown]

HRC is exactly what VP needs. Throw in a Wich Wich, Corner Bakery, (dare I...) Burger King, Dunkin, etc. and VP might actually attract visitors into stay more then just for the basketball/hockey game.

Well there goes their target customer base, but i agree, as it is the only way to keep Victory Park from dying.....