Victory Park In Dallas

[tierwestah]

found this surfing on dallasmetropolis

http://www.bizjournals.com/dallas/stories/...7217600^1674369

Mixing up the menu at Victory Upscale development

adding restaurants that

[worldlyman]

Dallas Morning News comments on Victory:

http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcontent/dw...comments_anchor

[TexasVines]

does the word "dallas" automatically trigger the reminder above or is that reminder in every thread started in this subsection of the forum?

[C2H]

I agree it was overhyped at the beginning. It seemed like it was realy focused on flash which I myself bought into the hype. I heard the developer is moving towards cheaper alternatives. That's the only way that place will survive because right now its on life support!

[C2H]

T/V i think the reminder is automatically triggered. I do feel like the mods on here are a little paranoid any time someone mentions the word Dallas. I quess because historically, especially on the old HAIF site when Dallas VS Houston wars were permitted, it could get kind of ugly. They were fun and entertaining reads though!

Edited October 14, 2008 by C2H

[wernicke]

There is a lot of content on VP linked on the posted article too. A lot of the comments on the article are very negative... seems the locals are a little restless with the way it has panned out.

VP needs some active park space like DG, in addition to cheaper restaurants/pubs/apartments. There's really nothing to do there, and all the condos in the area start at like $500K.

It has definitely been dead the few times I have gone to explore on a trip to Dallas. Some of the buildings look really cool though.

[RedScare]

I agree it was overhyped at the beginning. It seemed like it was realy focused on flash which I myself bought into the hype. I heard the developer is moving towards cheaper alternatives. That's the only way that place will survive because right now its on life support!

There was a belief that there are far more wealthy people who overspend than have ever existed. I suppose the recently cratered credit market helped inflate that myth by allowing middle income posers to spend as if they were wealthy by simply running up their credit cards. This myth was pointed out several times on the old Victory thread, but it was usually shot down as some sort of anti-Dallas jealousy.

I don't think any 'I told you so's are warranted, but the question begs to be asked, just what DO you do with Victory? I don't see easy credit coming back soon, if ever. Does Hillwood wait until it does, or do they try to reposition it as more middle market? Since it is almost impossible to position highrise condominiums as middle market, due to cost of construction, I would expect Victory to become much more commercial in scope. Once the recession ends, I would look for more office towers, and virtually no condos.

That's my guess.

[editor]

does the word "dallas" automatically trigger the reminder above or is that reminder in every thread started in this subsection of the forum?

It appears on every thread in this subsection.

[TexasVines]

it is hard to comment totally without sounding like dallas bashing

first reading some of the other stories linked on the story posted it sounds like the developers are going to go more commercial and less residental in the future

second I agree that the market for half a million dollar condos just does not exist in Texas like it does in other places...you can buy a 300K house with your very own lot and 200K left over will buy you a LOT of fuel even at higher prices....not to mention the schools issues

third I also agree that with the cost factor and looking at it from above on google it seems there is no real area to build anything, but over priced condos that are not in demand....so the option is to go commercial

it is in a HORRIBLE location, but it is nice that the total crap that was there is gone now.....but victory is way too far away from ANYTHING else.....from downtown.....from their convention center.....from residental....from other existing hotels

dallas is a trendy town and that is part of it's downfall and really part of the downfall of many areas....westend came and went.....same with deep ellum which just went deep ghetto.....greenville survives because it does have residential near it....included the dreaded home with a lot and a yard....of course if you live too close to greenville you might get your lawn t/spr/inkled every night

there is ZERO to draw people down to victory and the prices for what is there are beyond stupid

no matter what any may argue on here or anywhere else only a total fool thinks you will get people out of their cars en masse in Texas....so having expensive parking at over priced retail is a recipe for failure

sports team owners in dallas are too concerned with getting their area as their area development....I commend Houston team owners for seeing into the future of the city and not just their wallet.....the Toyota Center might not be the most beautiful building, but the AA Center looks like an AA hanger....hardly something to draw people to a trendy area......Minute Maid has character and the Toyota Center is right near it and they are both perfectly placed by the convention center.....it helps with that thing dallas team owners have missed the concept of which is critical mass....while I feel Arlington will get their investment back the ball park and Jerry World are still not going to offer any real critical mass to ever support much around it.....and the AA Center is proving it does not offer that.....things located near Minute Maid and The Toyota Center both have conventions to count on as well.....and downtown is not separated from them by freeways and major streets like victory is separated from anything else

having grown up in Houston and lived in San Antonio, dallas, and Austin.....dallas is not even on the list of places I would move back to.....while I CLEARLY understand why most in dallas have white flighted it out of dallas to other cities it is that same factor that has killed the entire area when it comes to what dallas offers.....in Houston and San Antonio you just can not escape HOUSTON AND SAN ANTONIO for the most part because they have not allowed the area to be cut up into competing suburbs....I feel this keeps a much large portion of the population looking out for the best interest of the city as a whole and cuts down on some of the ways things become trendy and then die....because really people in Plano could care less that people in dallas dumped money into something and it failed.....they will just wait until a new trend pops up or go to Arlington or Fort Worth

in dallas because it is really a smaller city with big city needs you can still get caught up in the "what is in it for my hood" type of politics....in Houston people way out in west Houston are smart enough to see through that and the critical mass of voters mostly shoots that crap down where it belongs....in dallas the critical mass of common sense voters that does not buy into that garbage lives in Plano and can't vote in dallas even if they wanted to.....so major projects in dallas stall because there is not enough to do a major project and throw the scraps to the "my hooders" as well....it is easier to go to Arlington, Frisco or ANYWHERE but dallas proper

if it was possible to put 50+ story office buildings on a truck and move them somewhere else the dallas metro area would be suburbs surrounding a totally vacant and ghetto area run by total fools

all the cities I listed above have issues and some of them are the same, but dallas is the one that is unique in that it is really a small city surrounded by dozens of suburbs where the common sense has left to....and really it shows now and will show more in the future

I was living in dallas when victory was getting off the ground and I and many others were seriously surprised that dallas even closed that deal.....it was probably because of the Perot name and a bit of the Hicks name.....much harder to drag them through the mud the way laura miller and half of the city council did with Jerry Jones.....Perot and Hicks had a history of bringing other things to dallas VS Jones that really did make his true fortune off of the sports team

Victory probably should have gone somewhere near the current reunion arena, the convention center, and the Hyatt Hotel, but a developer and his dreams and stupidity of the city council and their desires to "not give too much" would not allow that

Victory only passed because dallas believed they would get everything promised, give little in return, and mainly get rid of a total eyesore dump area in the process.....what they ended up with was a pig and a poke and an area around reunion that will soon be worthless when it is demoed and a Hyatt and convention center with one less thing near them.....along with another area just like the reunion area was in the past.....void of true critical mass....Hunt made the same promisses in the past about the reunion area and then the 80s oil bust and S&L crisis killed that.......laura the fool miller had already vilified Hunt for that (and for his office building plans later on) and was too busy setting up to vilify Jerry Jones.......so she could not just go and vilify Perot and Hicks or risk people totally catching on to what dallas is.....an extremely poorly run city that wants it all, but wants to get "their cut" as well while slamming those that try and profit from THEIR investments

just really a bad deal all around for dallas....victory area going nowhere, reunion area dying, nothing coming to formerly trendy areas like the west end and deep ellum and the possibly of Fair Park going the same route with the loss of the Cotton Bowl game and the possibility (though doubtful from comments I read after the RRS) of the Texas OU game eventually moving.....though again many fan comments I have read said the new Cotton Bowl stadium was done well and they prefer the game there with the Fair......but really think what dallas could have had

Edited October 14, 2008 by TexasVines

[N Judah]

Agreed. Dallas is hemmed in by close-in suburbs, to its detriment. But if LA can stage a comeback, so can Dallas.

[tierwestah]

I read on dallasmetropolis that the Nove has closed and most of the retailers in VP are getting restless and are tired of waiting for the shoppers. The current retail shops are ready to pull out because they are realizing no one wants to pay for parking and shop at those ridiculously high priced stores. Now they are working in bringing in more wallet-friendly dining like Pizza and Burger places. That's the only way this area will make it.

Its a shame that Hillwood is just now figuring this out!

[worldlyman]

If the entertainment aspects of it do not pan out in the future or near future...it could morph into a business park just as easily. It could have a few workers' eateries tucked in. I haven't been to it, but the pictures of it look pretty striking.

http://www.mediaarchitecture.org/wp-conten...7/11/VMN01s.jpg

Edited October 14, 2008 by worldlyman

[Karick42]

That was an interesting article. I remember when the started building Victory and my wife and I were excited to see the development when we would visit. It's a shame that it isn't more popular but I know it's not completely over. I hope they turn it around though because the Victory development could and should be a huge part of Dallas.

[TheNiche]

The DMN comments on Victory again:

http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcontent/dw...re.3957f1a.html

This news validates a lot of comments that have been made on this thread.

[Houston19514]

Victory Park was ill-conceived from day one. Everything FAR too high-end, and the location is too much of an island unto itself. As someone above said, no critical mass. Despite the fondest hopes of many Dallas boosters, the fact remains, Victory Park is NOT in downtown Dallas, and therefore neither benefits from nor contributes to the creation of a critical mass that might have supported the retail space. As it is, I don't think even mid-scale retail would likely be successful there.

Edited March 2, 2021 by Houston19514

[TxDave]

The high-end focus of Victory Park always perplexed me. Why go exclusive around an anchor that generally draws a large cross section of the general population?

Many of the people who were excited about the potential for Victory Park were turned off when they realized that they were essentially shut out of the high end boutiques and restaurants that ended up comprising the development.

Now that the upscale concept is apparently failing, the retail should be refocused to serve the needs of the neighborhood: daily services for the residents that do live there and the soon to arrive office workers; shops and restaurants that appeal and are accessible to patrons of events of the AAC; and like every neighborhood needs, a unique venture or two of some type that draws people for something that they cannot find in any other area of the city (trendy, high-end boutiques do not qualify - they are all over).

With the right focus and direction, the Victory Park area could evolve into a true urban neighborhood; however the current risk is that it will end up being just another incomplete, unrealized real estate development.

[Houston19514]

The high-end focus of Victory Park always perplexed me. Why go exclusive around an anchor that generally draws a large cross section of the general population?

Many of the people who were excited about the potential for Victory Park were turned off when they realized that they were essentially shut out of the high end boutiques and restaurants that ended up comprising the development.

Now that the upscale concept is apparently failing, the retail should be refocused to serve the needs of the neighborhood: daily services for the residents that do live there and the soon to arrive office workers; shops and restaurants that appeal and are accessible to patrons of events of the AAC; and like every neighborhood needs, a unique venture or two of some type that draws people for something that they cannot find in any other area of the city (trendy, high-end boutiques do not qualify - they are all over).

With the right focus and direction, the Victory Park area could evolve into a true urban neighborhood; however the current risk is that it will end up being just another incomplete, unrealized real estate development.

Quite right. Plus, I've always been perplexed by the many people singing the hosannas of the Victory Park plan as some sort of urban planner's dream. I have always thought it was laid out too much like an office park, and it's only gotten worse as it has developed. It is also terribly constrained and handicapped by its location.

[totheskies]

I think that Victory can work in the long-term, but the area has got to find some better connections to either downtown or uptown. The retail options just aren't going to cut it, b/c with today's economy EVERYONE is shopping at Wal-Mart, HEB, etc. whether they're rich or not. It would be great to intermingle Victory with the West End a bit more and try to revive that area.

[TexasVines]

I think that Victory can work in the long-term, but the area has got to find some better connections to either downtown or uptown. The retail options just aren't going to cut it, b/c with today's economy EVERYONE is shopping at Wal-Mart, HEB, etc. whether they're rich or not. It would be great to intermingle Victory with the West End a bit more and try to revive that area.

unfortunately just another HEB or Walmart is not something new or different especially when in a horrible over priced location

as for Victory and the West End.....Victory was trying (and failing) to be a place to live with some failed high end appeal.....the West End WAS a place for mainly tourist and people with friends in town to go for a night on the town......it was killed by bland generic tourist crap like planet hollyweird, house of blues, hard rock cafe, and sky high rents

there is really no way to blend the two especially with the infrastructure that cuts them off from themselves and now that they are both over priced, over hyped, and half empty and void of any real identity or draw.....merging them is like merging GM and Chrysler.....two things in trouble is twice the trouble

[RedScare]

unfortunately just another HEB or Walmart is not something new or different especially when in a horrible over priced location

as for Victory and the West End.....Victory was trying (and failing) to be a place to live with some failed high end appeal.....the West End WAS a place for mainly tourist and people with friends in town to go for a night on the town......it was killed by bland generic tourist crap like planet hollyweird, house of blues, hard rock cafe, and sky high rents

there is really no way to blend the two especially with the infrastructure that cuts them off from themselves and now that they are both over priced, over hyped, and half empty and void of any real identity or draw.....merging them is like merging GM and Chrysler.....two things in trouble is twice the trouble

West End was lame LONG before Planet Hollywood and HOB got there.

[TexasVines]

West End was lame LONG before Planet Hollywood and HOB got there.

lame perhaps to you and I and others....but at least it was doing some business.....now it is lame and dead

[RedScare]

It was dead by the early 90s though...years before any of those places you mentioned moved in. I left in 1995, so I don't know what they've done recently, but the locals stopped going within 3 years of it opening. In fact, Victory's upscale approach may have been a direct response to the fact that West End's middle class kitsch failed so miserably.

Edited December 8, 2008 by RedScare

[tierwestah]

Victory Park and luxury living on life support. I wonder how much harder Houston will get hit after the announcements of dead projects like Titan,Turnberry, High St, and Sonoma.

watch news video regarding Dallas Victory here.

EDIT http://cbs11tv.com/local/Nap.Of.Luxury.2.907641.html

Edited January 14, 2009 by tierwestah

[TxDave]

The Dallas Observer (sister publication to Houston Press) recently ran a feature about the failings of Victory Park:

http://www.dallasobserver.com/2009-01-29/news/empty-victory/

Edited February 14, 2009 by TxDave

[feufoma]

"It appears that Victory Park didn't follow the fundamentals of mixed-use projects by opening with so few tenants."

And this is why HP isn't a sure thing either. At least the proposed shops and restaurants are more of a mix-with really no high end retailers proposed for HP. I'd hate to see HP go the way of Victory (although I have to admit I'm somewhat pleased to see a Dallas project go south).

[Trae]

"It appears that Victory Park didn't follow the fundamentals of mixed-use projects by opening with so few tenants."

And this is why HP isn't a sure thing either. At least the proposed shops and restaurants are more of a mix-with really no high end retailers proposed for HP. I'd hate to see HP go the way of Victory (although I have to admit I'm somewhat pleased to see a Dallas project go south).

Uh, why would you really want a Dallas project to go south? The only thing I'm happy about is that the Dallas boosters coming on here trying to sell Victory has a project given by God are now eating their crow. None (except a select few) were being realistic about Victory's situation at all. Because of all this, maybe now Victory can diversify its stores/restaurants.

[citykid09]

"It appears that Victory Park didn't follow the fundamentals of mixed-use projects by opening with so few tenants."

And this is why HP isn't a sure thing either. At least the proposed shops and restaurants are more of a mix-with really no high end retailers proposed for HP. I'd hate to see HP go the way of Victory (although I have to admit I'm somewhat pleased to see a Dallas project go south).

Although for the moment Victory may be doing bad, the can still look foward to the future. The project is mostly built, the infrastructure is there. All they have to do is find tenants and get people to come. I would much rather have the infrastructure with few tenants at the moment, then to not have the infrastructure at all with no hope.

[Trae]

I'd rather it the other way around. What's the point of looking at empty structures just because it "looks nice". When the time comes for more building (after the economic slump), you're stuck with what you have with not much modifications.

Edited February 16, 2009 by Trae

[Houston19514]

Although for the moment Victory may be doing bad, the can still look foward to the future. The project is mostly built, the infrastructure is there. All they have to do is find tenants and get people to come. I would much rather have the infrastructure with few tenants at the moment, then to not have the infrastructure at all with no hope.

Decent point. But that leaves giant hurdles to overcome, the most giant of which is that the "infrastructure" is ill-conceived. No amount of mid-range tenants lining one side of street for two-three blocks, with nothing but a parking garage on the other side of the street, is likely to lure regular crowds of people, especially when the whole project is located on a veritable "island", and the design of the project reinforces the island effect. (Now we'll likely be treated to several Dallas posters telling us it's not an island because they have actually walked from downtown to Victory Park on at least one occasion. ;-) )

[citykid09]

Honestly, I think Victory has a bad design. The development around the American Airlines Stadium does not really fit in with the stadium. If they wanted the Times Square look, they shouldn't have had the plaza where you have to walk up stairs to get to it. The development should have instead revolved around the street where people can see it.