POST: 401 Franklin Post Office Site Redevelopment

[emmanume]

This reminds me of POST

[ZRFkris]

I’ll try and upload some photos from Rufus 🤙🏽

[j_cuevas713]

I think what was really cool is I saw one of those double decker city tour buses filled up with people the day I went. We def made a good impression on visitors with so many people walking around to check out POST and the energy of everything. 

Edited November 17, 2021 by j_cuevas713

[freundb]

2 hours ago, emmanume said:

This reminds me of POST

LOL. 100%

[Luminare]

I'll be honest. I've never seen a stairs configured in this way. Definitely going to walk this next time I'm in town. Have any of you seen Inception? Its like that moment when Joseph Gorden-Levitt's character was showing Ellen Page...Elliot Page...ugh...whatever anyway, the Penrose Steps or infinite staircase, but then the illusion was broken to show that its all a trick and the stairs then separate. Pretty neat. 

[BeerNut]

From u/Metaljoetx on Reddit.  713 Music Hall

 

 

[BigFootsSocks]

10 hours ago, Luminare said:

I'll be honest. I've never seen a stairs configured in this way. Definitely going to walk this next time I'm in town. Have any of you seen Inception? Its like that moment when Joseph Gorden-Levitt's character was showing Ellen Page...Elliot Page...ugh...whatever anyway, the Penrose Steps or infinite staircase, but then the illusion was broken to show that its all a trick and the stairs then separate. Pretty neat. 

It is Elliot Page, he changed it this year I believe.

[freundb]

11 hours ago, Luminare said:

I'll be honest. I've never seen a stairs configured in this way. Definitely going to walk this next time I'm in town. Have any of you seen Inception? Its like that moment when Joseph Gorden-Levitt's character was showing Ellen Page...Elliot Page...ugh...whatever anyway, the Penrose Steps or infinite staircase, but then the illusion was broken to show that its all a trick and the stairs then separate. Pretty neat. 

They are cool. They look even more like an illusion from the second floor like @tigereye posted in his twitter pics. 

[gene]

On 11/17/2021 at 8:50 AM, BigFootsSocks said:

It is Elliot Page, he changed it this year I believe.

I wonder what or how they will handle that fact on The Umbrella Academy? i love that show! 

[BeerNut]

21 minutes ago, gene said:

I wonder what or how they will handle that fact on The Umbrella Academy? i love that show! 

I believe he is a producer on that show,  I would think there would be some consistency in character.

[Andrew Ewert]

On 11/17/2021 at 8:50 AM, BigFootsSocks said:

It is Elliot Page, he changed it this year I believe.

They know that, they're just taking the opportunity to take a dig at trans people regardless of how off-topic it is.

[BEES?!]

I’m hoping to get back soon to POST since they had their grand opening. Anyone been back? How’s it looking like on non-opening weekend?

I can’t wait to get back and try some of the places that’ve opened up! (I’m a bit ramen fan, so Ramen Moto is one I’m really looking forward to)

[samagon]

I went during lunch on black Friday, it was busy.

Food was passable at the place I ate, view was stunning.

 

maybe it was just me, but the inside felt like a mall with no retail moved in, and all of the food court open. 

Edited December 2, 2021 by samagon

[BEES?!]

1 hour ago, samagon said:

I went during lunch on black Friday, it was busy.

Food was passable at the place I ate, view was stunning.

 

maybe it was just me, but the inside felt like a mall with no retail moved in, and all of the food court open. 

Nice pic samagon!

Yeah, when we went for the soft opening, I definitely got that impression, too. (Though there were a lot less of the restaurants open- I think only like half) 

I saw what looked like someone moving stuff into one of the office spaces in the Z-stairway area. I wonder if POST is having to compete with ION for tenants for their office space. 

In any case, I’m excited, and very curious, to see what they’ll do with the space in the next phases. What a unique project- I can’t wait to get back and check it out again!

[Texasota]

I was there on Sunday and it was pretty full with a surprising (to me at least - it was very windy) number of people just hanging out on the roof.

All the food I tried was excellent, and apparently the vendors are having issues with having under-ordered for the demand they've been getting. 

[samagon]

spot on review:

https://www.houstonpress.com/restaurants/popping-in-at-post-houston-12461354

after reading that, I have to agree, I wasn't disappointed in the food, I was disappointed in the food for the price I was charged. I suspect the prices they pay for those stalls is hefty, along with the CAM, so it gets passed on down the line.

[nate4l1f3]

It really is a wasted opportunity not to have some sort of rooftop bar/beer garden. I’d be more willing to pay $15 for a drink if that’s the case. 

[samagon]

17 hours ago, nate4l1f3 said:

It really is a wasted opportunity not to have some sort of rooftop bar/beer garden. I’d be more willing to pay $15 for a drink if that’s the case. 

someone had mentioned that it looked like they had leasable space on the roof deck. my guess is that the vision is that a bar is going to option that, but for the premium they are asking none have bitten yet.

I think it's interesting they bill it as a park, and it is, but at the end of the day, it's an amenity of a business. in that HP article, you can see clearly in the photo of the couple that got engaged they were drinking some sparkling liquid poured from a wine like container. I mean, that was a special type thing, but if you allow someone to bring a bottle of wine up there to make an engagement that much more memorable, then what about someone just doing a date night? what about someone doing some casual drinking with friends? where is that acceptability line drawn?

I can't recall if I saw a sign that said 'no outside food or drink' but I would suspect that this is going to be a quick addition, unless I just missed the signs.

[sapo2367]

17 hours ago, nate4l1f3 said:

It really is a wasted opportunity not to have some sort of rooftop bar/beer garden. I’d be more willing to pay $15 for a drink if that’s the case. 

IIRC there are plans for TWO rooftop bars eventually. But I can't recall now where I read that so don't believe everything you see on the internet.

[H-Town Man]

I guess the big question now is whether the attraction of the rooftop deck can continue to draw enough people to provide business to support the food court tenants, whose rent in turn supports the maintenance of the rooftop deck. Unless they can get some other things going.

 

[j_cuevas713]

 

55 minutes ago, H-Town Man said:

I guess the big question now is whether the attraction of the rooftop deck can continue to draw enough people to provide business to support the food court tenants, whose rent in turn supports the maintenance of the rooftop deck. Unless they can get some other things going.

 

The concert venue is also going to help draw people constantly. When I was in SF and Seattle, both of their markets weren't always busy. It was usually big events that drew crowds but otherwise the amount of people was sparse. 

[H-Town Man]

1 hour ago, j_cuevas713 said:

 

The concert venue is also going to help draw people constantly. When I was in SF and Seattle, both of their markets weren't always busy. It was usually big events that drew crowds but otherwise the amount of people was sparse. 

How often are concerts though?

 

[samagon]

when I was in Seattle, Pike Place Market was packed. it was a Saturday morning so weekend made a difference I'm sure, but it was very busy.

Post401 (and those hoping that Houston becomes a tourist destination) could only hope to be as successful as Pike Place.

Edited December 9, 2021 by samagon

[j_cuevas713]

12 minutes ago, samagon said:

when I was in Seattle, Pike Place Market was packed. it was a Saturday morning so weekend made a difference I'm sure, but it was very busy.

Post401 (and those hoping that Houston becomes a tourist destination) could only hope to be as successful as Pike Place.

Oh yeah for sure. I think with time it will. They will continue to add tenants. Future additions to the building will happen as well. 

 

15 minutes ago, H-Town Man said:

How often are concerts though?

 

Pretty damn often. We aren't just talking about big names either. I'm sure it will host an array of artists continually. That's the whole reason they built it was to have a constant stream of people visiting the site and as an anchor to draw tenants. 

[hindesky]

There seems to be 3-5 per month so far till May. I bet they schedule more too.

https://www.713musichall.com/events

Edited December 9, 2021 by hindesky

[H-Town Man]

This was the featured article on Costar yesterday, at least for Texas-area subscribers (my subscription is through Dallas). So everyone in the Texas real estate world saw a nice big picture of the center atrium. The article was fairly in depth but not much that we didn't already know.

Leasing the office will be challenging... they are asking $32/SF NNN. Compare that to Pennzoil Place at $28.50/SF NNN, the Gulf Building at $24.00/SF NNN, or for the history lover, a nice old gem like 917 Franklin for $24.00/SF Full Service (~$15.00/SF NNN). Where would you rather be?

The article's focus on the Lius was something different from other articles I've read:

Unlikely Duo

When local Taiwanese-American developer Frank Liu, with Lovett Commercial, purchased the high-profile site in 2015, it drew some initial concern because his company is mostly known for building shopping centers and townhouses that are “neither ugly nor distinctive” and are “mostly inconspicuous despite their large numbers,” according to Texas Architect Magazine.

Indeed, OMA’s partnership with Lovett Commercial is a bit like the fictional Homer Simpson character from "The Simpsons" marrying a super model, said Kirby Liu, director of development at Lovett Commercial and Frank Liu's son, at Post Houston’s grand opening in November. OMA’s international adaptive reuse projects include turning a Soviet-era restaurant into a contemporary art museum in Moscow and converting a distillery into a museum for Prada in Milan.

Lovett Commercial beat out some bids from developers that wanted to demolish the project and start from scratch for the high-profile site.

“This site after all stands alone as the key to unlock the urban potential of downtown. So perhaps there was a little disappointment when this once-in-a-generation opportunity fell into the hands of a developer whose primarily known for townhouses and strip centers and perhaps that disappointment was magnified when it became known that we wanted to preserve virtually the entirety of the complex,” said Kirby Liu.

An interior shot of a the post office sorting room where letters served as locators in the warehouse. (OMA)

Lovett Commercial bought the site at a time when global oil prices were collapsing and sending the commercial real estate market that tended to rely on energy tenants into a tailspin, with oil and gas companies shedding office space and fleeing pricey downtown leases. Two years later, Hurricane Harvey crashed into the city, flooding underground pipes that overwhelmed the former post office's sump pumps, flooding basements and destroying much of the building’s infrastructure, Kirby Liu said in an email to CoStar News.

“To be honest, we were not immune from mounting public incredulity that we were chasing what seemed to be a project with all the odds stacked against it and inexperienced leadership at that," Kirby Liu said at the ceremony. "This is a manifestation of our collective hope in that true architecture is for everyone from every walk of life.”

[BEES?!]

Don’t Pennzoil and the Gulf building both suffer from pretty high vacancy rates? I’d be curious to see how much POST is asking for lines up with similar projects. Probably not something like Texas Tower, but a low or mid-rise new construction office building/ mixed use concept inside the loop? How much are asking rates for, say, Montrose Collective? 
 

I’m not an expert on any of this stuff by any stretch of the imagination, to be sure (nor do i play one on tv :P ) but I’d imagine someone who wants to lease office space in POST/one of the trendier new low/midrise buildings might be a different clientele than the people looking to rent in one of the towers in downtown/uptown/etc. 

[freundb]

I really liked how the empty office looked lit up in orange during the grand opening. I know it would be one very expensive art installation, but I'm ok with it. 

[H-Town Man]

2 hours ago, BEES?! said:

Don’t Pennzoil and the Gulf building both suffer from pretty high vacancy rates? I’d be curious to see how much POST is asking for lines up with similar projects. Probably not something like Texas Tower, but a low or mid-rise new construction office building/ mixed use concept inside the loop? How much are asking rates for, say, Montrose Collective? 
 

I’m not an expert on any of this stuff by any stretch of the imagination, to be sure (nor do i play one on tv :P ) but I’d imagine someone who wants to lease office space in POST/one of the trendier new low/midrise buildings might be a different clientele than the people looking to rent in one of the towers in downtown/uptown/etc. 

Pennzoil and Gulf both have fairly good occupancy for downtown - Gulf is high 70's and Pennzoil is in the 60's%. Montrose Collective is $37-45/SF NNN but that is new construction, hard to compare. Ion might be a better comparison at $33-37/SF NNN.

Different clientele, yes, to a point. A prospective tenant at POST gets a great view, a food hall, a sense of history, a downtown vibe. A prospective tenant at the Gulf building gets a great view, a food hall, a sense of history, a downtown vibe. Some differences remain... POST may be more of a blank slate for something offbeat, while at Gulf there is more the traditional office feel with lots of bank employees around you. Parking and traffic are big issues... maybe POST is easier to get in and out of for someone driving in on Washington?

Edited December 17, 2021 by H-Town Man

[arche_757]

What sense of history are you remotely referring to?

[H-Town Man]

10 hours ago, arche_757 said:

What sense of history are you remotely referring to?

Both buildings are historic. The Gulf moreso, obviously.

[arche_757]

What’s the historic part of the post office again?

The Gulf I certainly understand.  The other -to me- is a stretch.  I mean we’ve had a lot of fantastic buildings torn down here that are more substantial architecture, but whatever.

[Texasota]

If nothing else, both the Gulf building and the post office are legally historic. They're listed in the National Register of Historic Places.

Pennzoil Place is not, but it is 100% eligible for listing. It's an important building architecturally.

 

[arche_757]

Interestingly I’m having a time finding what makes it a national register building, NPS website keeps crashing for me.  Can anyone elaborate on what makes the Barbara Jordan Post Office of national significance?  Please.

[mkultra25]

1 hour ago, arche_757 said:

Interestingly I’m having a time finding what makes it a national register building, NPS website keeps crashing for me.  Can anyone elaborate on what makes the Barbara Jordan Post Office of national significance?  Please.

For what it's worth, the searchable table here:

https://www.nps.gov/subjects/nationalregister/database-research.htm#table

indicates a local level of significance but not a state, national, or international level of significance. Area of significance is listed as "Architecture; Politics/Government", along with a listing date of 2/2/2018. The obvious conclusion to be drawn is that a site does not have to necessarily have national or even state-level significance in order to be listed.    

Edit: I searched the table for "Barbara Jordan" to locate the building.

Edited December 18, 2021 by mkultra25

[arche_757]

Thanks @mkultra25!  I found the database but couldn’t get it to load even after multiple attempts. I assume the traffic from HAIF was so great it was causing immense slowdowns for the NPS.

That is interesting that a building with local history would make it onto a national database.  I know the NPS is somewhat subjective in reviewing projects, but to me for a building to be on a national list of important buildings it really does require national importance.  That can be through either the history that took place, or history that was made by the building, or through the fantastic architecture it exhibits - like the Menil will eventually be on the NPS register.

That brings the question: which buildings do Houstonians feel strongly should belong on the national register?

[mkultra25]

17 hours ago, arche_757 said:

That is interesting that a building with local history would make it onto a national database.  I know the NPS is somewhat subjective in reviewing projects, but to me for a building to be on a national list of important buildings it really does require national importance.  That can be through either the history that took place, or history that was made by the building, or through the fantastic architecture it exhibits - like the Menil will eventually be on the NPS register.

That brings the question: which buildings do Houstonians feel strongly should belong on the national register?

Knowing that there were at least a few Heights-area houses in the National Register, I went back to the database and searched for "Harvard", then scrolled down to Texas, expecting to find the late Bart Truxillo's house at 1802 Harvard. It was indeed there, but two things surprised me: 1) that it, like the former Post Office, was also listed as having only local significance, and 2) there are almost 20 other houses on Harvard listed in the Register, likewise flagged as being solely of local significance. 

The Truxillo house could be argued to have more than local significance, from the standpoint of being more architecturally-distinctive than the Post Office building, and being one of two remaining houses built by the original developers of the Heights. But the same can't be said for every other house on Harvard that's listed.

Downloading the data set via the link on that page is a much easier way to work with the data. It's a csv file that can be filtered by Texas/Harris County/Houston in Excel to show that there are 282 listings in Houston out of a total of 96,643 listings. 

[arche_757]

It will be interesting to read in: 10, 15, 20+ years the architectural guides regarding Post.  The transformative architecture OMA has rendered there (I’ve not been in person, this is judging from photos) is unique - not only here in Houston, but really anywhere in the States.  These sort of grand “civic” scape repurposed building projects seem to be more commonplace in Europe and Asia, so to have a large scale repurposing locally is really great.

Imagine a similar approach to the old convention center 25 years ago.

[H-Town Man]

On 12/18/2021 at 11:14 AM, arche_757 said:

What’s the historic part of the post office again?

The Gulf I certainly understand.  The other -to me- is a stretch.  I mean we’ve had a lot of fantastic buildings torn down here that are more substantial architecture, but whatever.

I'm not saying I love the building. But the giant cast-in-place concrete columns and beams are a type of construction we may not see again. The postal service didn't mess around when they built things. There's a sense of, "Let us think that when we build, we build forever" that you don't find in today's steel frame, tiltwall warehouses like that Amazon one that crumpled like a tin can.

How many other existing warehouses in Houston do you think could support a rooftop deck without a ton of extra columns and reinforcement being added?

The cast concrete exoskeleton of the office building is also something that evokes an era.

[thatguysly]

Seeing that Houston tears everything down and saves virtually nothing, you could argue any building that lasts that long could be considered significant.

[arche_757]

@H-Town Man I am not sure?  I mean if the structure of the Post Office is by itself the  architecturally significant element that deserves preservation, then why do we even debate the Astrodome?

Beggers cannot be choosers, since at this point we’re all beggers in this town when it comes to historic preservation.  It is a shame developers like Lovett didn’t exist a couple decades sooner.  If there had been more here with a thought towards preservation then perhaps we would have some of our old, great buildings: Sam Houston Coliseum, Robinson Public Warehouse, Foleys Downtown, Prudential Building et cetera.

Edited December 21, 2021 by arche_757
Clarity on response.

[H-Town Man]

On 12/20/2021 at 10:00 PM, arche_757 said:

@H-Town Man I am not sure?  I mean if the structure of the Post Office is by itself the  architecturally significant element that deserves preservation, then why do we even debate the Astrodome?

Beggers cannot be choosers, since at this point we’re all beggers in this town when it comes to historic preservation.  It is a shame developers like Lovett didn’t exist a couple decades sooner.  If there had been more here with a thought towards preservation then perhaps we would have some of our old, great buildings: Sam Houston Coliseum, Robinson Public Warehouse, Foleys Downtown, Prudential Building et cetera.

I don't know why there is even a debate about the Astrodome. I don't see why it is controversial to preserve. I am also pretty sure it would be a functioning tourist attraction right now if it were not for the Texans and the Rodeo. I think Ed Emmett was willing to take them on and Lina Hidalgo isn't. It's not a fight that most people would want to have in their first or second term as judge.

Some of those buildings you mention I am not sure pass cost/benefit analysis. Sam Houston Coliseum had some history but was pretty dated for its function. Location comes into play. New York is on its third or fourth iteration of Madison Square Garden. Some of those early iterations were pretty amazing structures with 100 times the history of Sam Houston Coliseum, but land on Madison Square is too precious a commodity to be taken up by a functionally obsolete arena (and yes, I do realize that the current MSG is not on Madison Square). POST might see the wrecking ball too at some point and I won't be chaining myself to the bulldozers.

[arche_757]

Hard to compare NYC historic buildings with our own.  Coliseum may be a bit of a stretch.  The others may seem odd, but considering how few large historical structures we have, not to mention those were all recently demolished with nothing replacing them.  *Foley’s being the exception.

Edited December 23, 2021 by arche_757

[Big E]

9 hours ago, H-Town Man said:

I don't know why there is even a debate about the Astrodome.

Because most people in Houston don't give one whit about the Astrodome. It was Emmett's pet project, but nobody else cared and just want it torn down because it serves no purpose, which is why every attempt at a referendum to spend money on the thing failed. Texas Stadium and the Georgia Dome were torn down with no fanfare at all and nobody misses them. Hidalgo just had the issue thrown in her lap because Emmett went to the level of getting the thing declared historic on his way out the door.

[j_cuevas713]

Honestly I’m glad he did, and its a State Antiquities Landmark, meaning it can’t be altered without consent from the state. This is a rare opportunity to actually save one of the buildings that made us the city we are. We really need to evaluate the importance of the few remaining truly historic buildings we have left. We don’t have the “luxury” of tearing down any more history. People often argue that even Yankee Stadium was torn down but losing Yankee Stadium didn’t hurt NY because most of NYC is old and historic. 

[dbigtex56]

1 hour ago, Big E said:

nobody else cared and just want it torn down

You're wrong.
You know you're wrong, so there's no need to expand on that statement.

[dbigtex56]

1 hour ago, Big E said:

Hidalgo just had the issue thrown in her lap because Emmett went to the level of getting the thing declared historic on his way out the door.

Read 'How the Astrodome was saved'.
"In 2014, the Astrodome became a National Historic Landmark on the National Register of Historic Places. Three years later, it became a State Antiquities Landmark."
(Hidalgo defeated Emmett in the November 2018 election. Please explain how Emmett had the Dome receive two landmark statuses retroactively while "on his way out the door".)
 

[bobruss]

Let's not get started on the Astrodome argument on this site. 

I think it has its own post.

[H-Town Man]

14 hours ago, arche_757 said:

Hard to compare NYC historic buildings with our own.  Coliseum may be a bit of a stretch.  The others may seem odd, but considering how few large historical structures we have, not to mention those were all recently demolished with nothing replacing them.  *Foley’s being the exception.

Sam Houston Coliseum:Houston::3rd Madison Square Garden:New York

 

[SMU1213]

Bring the Astrodome down to it's steel studs and put a park in the middle of it.

Next question.