Market Square Park At 301 Milam St.

[Vertigo58]

Makes me hungry even 120 yrs later.

[memebag]

What have all the saucy bootblacks gone?

[Poppahop]

What have all the saucy bootblacks gone?

Sounds like the title of a Decemberists song?

[memebag]

Sounds like the title of a Decemberists song?

I've had the Paula Cole song stuck in my head ever since I wrote that question.

[RedScare]

Houston buildings need more crouching lions and fountains....and girls who love to be stared at.

[lockmat]

I found this from December '08:

PPS found, unsurprisingly, that people stayed away due to the lack of other people using the space. PPS's suggestions for livening up the park included a food stand with lots of seating, a playground, and temporary events: fitness classes, live music and a farmers market.

The #1 PPS recommendation for making the space active was a dog run. The amenity would attract people at all times of day, as well as provide a place where dog owners could meet their neighbors and form community connections.

The city is now working towards implementing these suggestions, and hope to begin construction in the summer of 2009.

http://blog.pps.org/market-square-readying...revitalization/

also...

I thought this was an interesting take:

Houston is a city where every public space is seen as a design statement not a place for people. Hence, there are no great public spaces in Houston, and there never will be until city leaders get over the idea of

Edited May 11, 2009 by lockmat

[kylejack]

Ugh dog run.

[sidegate]

Ugh dog run.

I can't speak for anywhere else but dogs are a big deal in this city. We are one of a small minority of households on our block that doesn't have at least one. Their owners invest a lot of time in them, and like talking to other dog owners about dog stuff so I can understand catering to them. As for Market Square I've always found it very uninspiring and as other posters have pointed out the elevated lawns and sunken walkways detract from the continuity of the space, making it seem smaller and generally giving it a very dated 70s-ish feel. From a practical point of view I'd be reticent to let a toddler run around on the grass lest they go sailing off one of those ledges. And then there are the bums but given the climate they will always be a fact of life here. When I was young free and single I used to enjoy hanging out in the bars on the periphery so I'm sure it would be nice to sit outside one of those and look out on a thoughtfully updated urban space.

[kylejack]

I can't speak for anywhere else but dogs are a big deal in this city. We are one of a small minority of households on our block that doesn't have at least one. Their owners invest a lot of time in them, and like talking to other dog owners about dog stuff so I can understand catering to them. As for Market Square I've always found it very uninspiring and as other posters have pointed out the elevated lawns and sunken walkways detract from the continuity of the space, making it seem smaller and generally giving it a very dated 70s-ish feel. From a practical point of view I'd be reticent to let a toddler run around on the grass lest they go sailing off one of those ledges. And then there are the bums but given the climate they will always be a fact of life here. When I was young free and single I used to enjoy hanging out in the bars on the periphery so I'm sure it would be nice to sit outside one of those and look out on a thoughtfully updated urban space.

However I am selfish and want things that benefit me, not others.

[infinite_jim]

I'm sure this will make for a great public restroom for all.

Just kidding, but I'm not really sure any preconceived "design" is a good idea. The grade dynamics of it's current design does isolate the epicenter of the park and the sculpture's choice of materials reinforces a stark character. I'd be fine with the simplicity of a level grading and a manicured lawn of Hank Hill's criteria.

[OnTheOtherHand]

Would it be possible for the city to acquire weekend rights to part of the parking lot? I assume that these lots make most of their money during the weekdays. If the city bought weekend rights to the 1/3 of the parking lot closest to the park, they could make some simple improvements (like brick paving and a few trees), and use this area for weekend events such as a farmer's market or occasional festivals. Preston could be temporarily closed during these weekend events and possibly even be used as a location for marker/festival booths.

The rest of the parking lot would still be parking, and it might even make more money when there were weekend events at the park. The whole lot would still be used for parking during weekdays.

One flaw with this is that I assume that most downtown parking lot owners would sell their lots immediately if a buyer offered the right price. I don't know how they would arrange a lease to the city while still maintaining this sales flexibility. Of course, with the current market, they might take a little short-term lease money from the city rather than holding out for a big sale.

This also would involve the city either spending money or figuring out some other way to fund the project. Does anyone know the owner of the parking lot? Is there any chance that something like this (with pretty minimal up-front costs) could be financed privately? The city could arrange to close the street during events, provide security, and maybe accept some liability, and the owner would organize events that allow him to get some return on any improvements or time invested.

Just a thought.

[samagon]

If I'm thinking of the right place, one of the unique aspects of this space, to me, is the integration of the floors of whatever buildings used to sit there in the walkway.

I don't particularly care how this space is updated, but I hope that they can retain this unique feature of this greenspace!

Edited May 19, 2009 by samagon

[rsb320]

It needs tables under the trees. People use the pocket park at Capitol and Milam like crazy, especially for lunch. They also use the sitting area in front of Jones Hall. For some reason, Jones Plaza and Market Square are underutilized. I think providing a place for someone to eat their lunch would greatly increase its usage.

[lockmat]

It needs tables under the trees. People use the pocket park at Capitol and Milam like crazy, especially for lunch. They also use the sitting area in front of Jones Hall. For some reason, Jones Plaza and Market Square are underutilized. I think providing a place for someone to eat their lunch would greatly increase its usage.

this one?

http://www.houstonarchitecture.info/Buildi...nChase_Park.php

That would be sort of neat for future buildings to include small parks like this, too.

[musicman]

This also would involve the city either spending money or figuring out some other way to fund the project.

with the city having to float >20million in bonds to meet their current retirement obligations, not sure a proposal such as yours would be achievable currently. there are still proposals out there to start charging for parking on sunday downtown according to a couple of business owners i know.

[rsb320]

this one?

http://www.houstonarchitecture.info/Buildi...nChase_Park.php

That would be sort of neat for future buildings to include small parks like this, too.

That's it. The Brown Bag Deli is adjacent, so you can grab a sandwich and then grab an outside table. I did it just last week.

Music, this city has so may generous endowments, etc. I'm sure we could manage to drum up some private contributors for Market Square. I mean really, it's the centerpiece of old Houston.

[Daniepwils]

with the city having to float >20million in bonds to meet their current retirement obligations, not sure a proposal such as yours would be achievable currently. there are still proposals out there to start charging for parking on sunday downtown according to a couple of business owners i know.

Why don't they charge for parking on Sundays? I mean they already do every other day of the week.

[musicman]

Why don't they charge for parking on Sundays? I mean they already do every other day of the week.

most business owners were adamantly against metered parking, esp on slower periods like weekend days. just yet another reason not to go downtown.

there was also talk in the last 6 months or so to lengthen period til later in the evening weekdays to which many businesses owners said no esp because of the two hr limit implemented in the last yr or so. it makes it difficult for people to have dinner and some drinks somewhere without having to worry about moving your car.

[lockmat]

Found some old stuff, including a video. Seems like the video concept would have been awesome but from the final report it looks like concept number one won out.

video: http://www.mainstreettirz.com/images/Marke...k_Animation.wmv

http://www.mainstreettirz.com/marketsquarepark.html

ONE

TWO

THREE

[musicman]

from 13, looks like changes are in the works beginning in nov with a goal opening of memorial day weekend. money will be from TIRZ funds.

depiction is here.

Edited September 28, 2009 by musicman

[H-Town Man]

Looks great. They did it right.

[uhlaw09]

Article here: http://politicalblog.abc13.com/2009/09/big-changes-coming-to-market-square.html

[Porchman]

It seems like they're trying to create a considerable amount in that one block. It would be great if they could extend it to the next block south. They could replace the current surface lot with underground parking. Maybe the major foundations could take a stake in such a project. Ooo! They could rename it Deja Vu Green!

[samagon]

It seems like they're trying to create a considerable amount in that one block. It would be great if they could extend it to the next block south. They could replace the current surface lot with underground parking. Maybe the major foundations could take a stake in such a project. Ooo! They could rename it Deja Vu Green!

hahaha

one of the cool things I liked about the current Market Square was that they incorporated the tile floors of older building in the walkways, a very subtle nod to the history of Houston, if they lose that, we'll be losing out on that bit of history.

[porTENT]

Bleh, another design by committee and yet another redesign in ~20 years. This should have been an international design competition.

[Subdude]

It's hard to tell, but it would be nice if they could keep the existing trees in place. "Lauren's Garden" is a "contemplative area".

I liked the old Market Square pre the current version. Nothing there that I recall except for a knoll near the north side. The small hill managed to draw its share of sunbathers and hangers-out.

[20thStDad]

Giant ferris wheel.

[musicman]

one of the cool things I liked about the current Market Square was that they incorporated the tile floors of older building in the walkways, a very subtle nod to the history of Houston, if they lose that, we'll be losing out on that bit of history.

the historical items are nice but that sunken area has been the location of quite a few muggings. hopefully the new design will help eliminate that.

[fatesdisastr]

there really doesnt seem to be a captivating water feature at the proposed park.

to me, water features are what draw the people in. hint: disco greens shoot water, ponds, etc

[musicman]

there really doesnt seem to be a captivating water feature at the proposed park.

to me, water features are what draw the people in. hint: disco greens shoot water, ponds, etc

with the problems they have with homeless taking baths (and stealing parts) in the current fountains, it's probably a good thing. it looks like the circular ones will remain.

[rsb320]

with the problems they have with homeless taking baths (and stealing parts) in the current fountains, it's probably a good thing. it looks like the circular ones will remain.

Cop horses drink out of those too.

They removed that ugly, propeller-looking sculpture this week. I remember reading that it would be incorporated into the new park design. Maybe they are getting ready to start construction.

[RedScare]

I think it best that grumpy old men with homeless obsessions not engage in the design of public spaces.

[kylejack]

Let's have it done by homeless old men with grumpy obsessions!

[rsb320]

Not about the park, but it is Mkt Sqr.

Something is going on at the western end of the Henkle Bldg. There's paper on the windows and a permit that says something about minor restaurant remodel. I don't even recall what was in there previously. It's to the left of Les Givrals.

[tigereye]

Per the HBJ, construction is supposed to start this month. And they've provided us with a few details of the redesign as well.....

Linkage

[LTAWACS]

thanks for the link

[citizen4rmptown]

VERY COOL....

Redesign features will include a dog run and a historic walking area.

In addition, there will be a water feature dedicated to Lauren Catuzzi Grandcolas, a local passenger on United Flight 93, which crashed after being taken over by hijackers during the 9/11 attacks, as well as seasonal flowers, trees and a memorial to all victims of 9/11.

Art will remain a major component in the redesign, according to a statement from Downtown District officials. The existing Market Square Park is a collaboration of artists coordinated by DiverseWorks.

The same artists — Richard Turner, Paul Hester, James Surls, Malou Flato and newcomer Ketria Scott — will incorporate some new pieces as well as update older works. Artwork in the park will be managed by the Houston Arts Alliance.

The Downtown District is negotiating with Niko Niko’s Greek & American Café to operate a small restaurant in the park with outdoor seating, a trellis providing shade and a dual plaza/performance area on the Travis Street side.

Construction is expected to begin by the end of the year and be completed in mid-2010.

[rsb320]

I'm excited about the Niko Niko's component.

[kylejack]

I'm excited about the Niko Niko's component.

Indeed. And they'd better stay open at night or else!

[ricco67]

Call me a bit heartless, but I don't think a 9/11 memorial isn't very fitting condidering how small the connection it is. Name it after an someone local who did something noble or an officer that died in the line of duty. Hell, name a bench after Marvin.

Edited December 19, 2009 by ricco67

[Subdude]

Agree on the memorial bit. Niko Nikos is brilliant. It's about time they expanded. I just hope they can stay in business at that location. It seems a lot of food joints have come and gone on Market Square.

[rsb320]

Agree on the memorial bit. Niko Nikos is brilliant. It's about time they expanded. I just hope they can stay in business at that location. It seems a lot of food joints have come and gone on Market Square.

Seems to me that the restaurants and bars that are there now have been there from quite some time (ie: Treebeards, etc.). The Les Givrals people are adding two more eating places, on either side of their existing restaurant. At lunch time anyway, all of those restaurants around Mkt Sqr are packed.

[citizen4rmptown]

Call me a bit heartless, but I don't think a 9/11 memorial isn't very fitting condidering how small the connection it is. Name it after an someone local who did something noble or an officer that died in the line of duty. Hell, name a bench after Marvin.

It might not be a connection, but a memorial is a memorial, and wether the connection is small, it was an important event, was it not? It doesnt matter if there was a memorial in Pennsylvania or in Houston, because it was something that affected everybody. Maybe not in a big way, but i think the family or relatives who had somebody killed in Flight 93 would appreciate it.

[ricco67]

I disagree.

It would be like having a memorial for the OKC or the original WTC bombings here in Houston because a native died there.

If you're going to put a 9/11 for one person, then perhaps ALL victims with Houston ties from that day should have their names inscribed.

Better yet, leave it empty until the wars are over so all the (local) names that have fallen can be included properly honored.

Edited December 19, 2009 by ricco67

[AtticaFlinch]

I disagree.

It would be like having a memorial for the OKC or the original WTC bombings here in Houston because a native died there.

If you're going to put a 9/11 for one person, then perhaps ALL victims with Houston ties from that day should have their names inscribed.

Better yet, leave it empty until the wars are over so all the (local) names that have fallen can be included properly honored.

I disagree. Houston has the Holocaust Museum and it fits here. I think it's appropriate to have reminders everywhere of the destruction wrought from hatred all over the world. It might start to cause people to think before they start wars in the future.

[ricco67]

I disagree. Houston has the Holocaust Museum and it fits here. I think it's appropriate to have reminders everywhere of the destruction wrought from hatred all over the world. It might start to cause people to think before they start wars in the future.

The difference being is that it's a dedicated building for that history which was a global tragedy.

Once the war is over, I would not have any opposition to a related museum dedicated to that, but do it right, don't do it half baked. a modest plaque in a central park is a "feel good" measure I'm not thrilled about.

[AtticaFlinch]

The difference being is that it's a dedicated building for that history which was a global tragedy.

Once the war is over, I would not have any opposition to a related museum dedicated to that, but do it right, don't do it half baked. a modest plaque in a central park is a "feel good" measure I'm not thrilled about.

Maybe you're right. Maybe it is just a "feel good" measure. I still like the idea though. 9/11 affected more than just those people who happened to be in lower Manhattan that morning, and I'm not just referring to the fallout of the two wars we started as a result. First responders from around the US converged on New York en masse to help their fellow fire fighters, paramedics and police rescue people and begin the process of cleaning up the mess. Hell, my cousin's husband (who happens to live in Dallas) was one such person. I'm having a difficult time understanding why anyone would object to any memorial about 9/11. It's a very big part of the American persona, regardless of place or time. I'd rather see a museum too, but I really think anything larger than a memorial outside of New York would be the disingenuous "feel good" measure.

[ricco67]

Maybe you're right. Maybe it is just a "feel good" measure. I still like the idea though. 9/11 affected more than just those people who happened to be in lower Manhattan that morning, and I'm not just referring to the fallout of the two wars we started as a result. First responders from around the US converged on New York en masse to help their fellow fire fighters, paramedics and police rescue people and begin the process of cleaning up the mess. Hell, my cousin's husband (who happens to live in Dallas) was one such person. I'm having a difficult time understanding why anyone would object to any memorial about 9/11. It's a very big part of the American persona, regardless of place or time. I'd rather see a museum too, but I really think anything larger than a memorial outside of New York would be the disingenuous "feel good" measure.

A proper museum would be the proper venue, I believe.

Having such a structure in the future wouldn't be a "Feel good" measure, but a proper way to be in the proper context as to why things happened the way it happened.

The Holocaust didn't just happen, there was quite a few important event that led up to that event, and as such, a museum can be a proper way to put it all together....as long as it's not politicized.

[RedScare]

Maybe you're right. Maybe it is just a "feel good" measure. I still like the idea though. 9/11 affected more than just those people who happened to be in lower Manhattan that morning, and I'm not just referring to the fallout of the two wars we started as a result. First responders from around the US converged on New York en masse to help their fellow fire fighters, paramedics and police rescue people and begin the process of cleaning up the mess. Hell, my cousin's husband (who happens to live in Dallas) was one such person. I'm having a difficult time understanding why anyone would object to any memorial about 9/11. It's a very big part of the American persona, regardless of place or time. I'd rather see a museum too, but I really think anything larger than a memorial outside of New York would be the disingenuous "feel good" measure.

But, it this a memorial to all those victims with Houston connections, and all those first responders and others who came to the aid of those affected by the tragedy? From reading the admittedly incomplete statement, it appears that this is a memorial to only one person who died in the attack. It would appear that a 9/11 memorial in a centrally located park should honor ALL those who died and came to the aid of the injured, as opposed to just one person whose family pushed for it. Again, the article is short on details, but if that is the case, I would be in favor of a more inclusive memorial.

EDIT: Upon closer reading, it does appear that there is a broader memorial to all victims in addition to the garden dedicated to Lauren. I do not have a problem with that. Chances are, Lauren's family did a lot of work to make this happen.

Edited December 21, 2009 by RedScare

[RustyB]

FWIW - Last week there was some dudes taking measurements in the little lot next to la Carafe.