METRORail University Line

[ssullivan]

lots of wishful thinking on paper but in real life, would be too controversial because lots of land acquisition would be necessary.

Honestly, I don't know that much land would have to be acquired. Most of the proposed routes on his maps are on existing major streets, and in some cases, they involve existing railroad corridors.

[musicman]

Some acquisition may be required at some of the turns but that would be expected. You don't hold up an entire transit system just to mollify a handful of opponents and AOers'. That's life in the Big City for you.

He has better ideas than METRO ever will. for instance allowing both bus and train on the same roadway. places in europe have also added taxis to the mix successfully. I honestly believe there are more than a handful of opponents. it's more like 50/50.

when metro's plans finally do come out...it'll be interesting ot see how many of the cross streets will be closed particularly for those in the area. The currently line only passes thru one neighborhood per se. so traffic patterns were only changed in that neighborhood. i'm talking between 59 and the fine arts museum. it really has hindered vehicular traffic. I know the man with the wheelchair biz on san jacinto had to threaten to sue because he was promised more than one entrance to his parking lot. well when the rail was finished. he only had one entrance. One of my aunts lives on caroline over there and she said that traffic on that street has really increased.

The proposed line really cuts through more neighborhoods so well probably see lots of increased traffic as well. i know i use roseland or stanford a lot to bypass the lights on montrose. if these streets are closed at richmond. everyone will be forced to montrose most likely.

[AftonAg]

Ok here's the deal - I have lived in the Afton Oaks neighborhood since the 1980's and I am against the rail on Richmond running through my neighborhood. For those of you that don't live in the area - the rail idea seems like a good one. Never mind that when the voters approved the University line it was going to run down Westpark - that's a minor point, and one that will likely be decided by the courts at some point. Richmond is already a very busy street. I would like for any of you that have the time to take a trip down Richmond from Greenway Plaza to Chimney Rock at 5:30 on any weekday non holiday evening. You will get the idea. Right now there is some road work being done at the left turn lane at Richmond and 610 - inside the loop. On almost any evening coming from the east towards 610 on Richmond it will take you 25 to 45 minutes to travel from Newcastle to 610 loop. I can walk it in five minutes - ten if it is really hot.

So let's build a train down the middle of Richmond - cut down a few dozen really old Oak trees, and cause some businesses to go under because they are inaccessible during construction. That is what happened on Main Street - perhaps you have forgotten. It really isn't that big of a deal - those businesses were replaced by newer glitzier businesses just ready to take your dollar. What about those poor stiffs that built their businesses on Main Street over a lifetime - only to file bankruptcy, lose their property and see it bought on the courthouse steps at 10 cents on the dollar by one of Metro's cronies - that's the American Way right. Get a piece of the pie even if you have to steal the pie from someone else's plate with help from the government.

Yeah let's build that train down the middle of Richmond - the Afton Oaks neighborhood is changing - lots of young couples raising their kids, kids and parents out walking dogs and riding bikes in the evenings. an idyllic setting to say the least - until traffic get's backed up and a surburbanite road rager decides to cut through from Westheimer to Richmond or Richmond to Westheimer. Madly speeding through the neighborhood to beat traffic. So he runs over a few dogs and kids no big deal. Even if he doesn't he has still made my neighborhood a more dangerous place to live. Tell me that the train will prevent that - I dare you - we all know that it isn't the case.

This line belongs on Westpark - where Metro already owns the right of way, where the voters approved it. If it is such a boon to business it should revitalize the Westpark corridor - there will be a minimum effect on traffic and people - as there aren't any neighborhoods right on Westpark. Businesses will thrive, and one of Houston's newest business segments - the bicycle taxi will certainly benefit from hauling people back and forth from Richmond to the metro station. Stations along Westpark would also result in more people along Westpark - which in turn would bring more police to the area. If you are from Houston you know that many of the neighborhoods close to Westpark will benefit from a greater police presence.

[RedScare]

Note to other forumers: Texas A&M does not teach the tortured logic displayed in the previous post. It comes only from living in Afton Oaks. I will dissect the post once I return from lunch on Main Street...yeah, that Main Street.

[ricco67]

i will wait with baited breath. i wanna read read's response.

[Highway6]

Never mind that when the voters approved the University line it was going to run down Westpark - that's a minor point, and one that will likely be decided by the courts at some point.

Are these the same people that meant to vote for Gore, but voted for Bush instead ? Are you really an elderly Florida democrat ?

Anyone that starts their argument with the above, you really can't help but just tune them out. How come it seems the only people that misread the ballot are from Afton Oaks ?

[Trae]

That's why I think it should go north on Weslayan, and then make a left on Westheime. It will leave those AOer's alone (we don't need World War 4 starting in Houston), and would hit the high density developments.

[WesternGulf]

Ok here's the deal - I have lived in the Afton Oaks neighborhood since the 1980's and I am against the rail on Richmond running through my neighborhood. For those of you that don't live in the area - the rail idea seems like a good one. Never mind that when the voters approved the University line it was going to run down Westpark - that's a minor point, and one that will likely be decided by the courts at some point. Richmond is already a very busy street. I would like for any of you that have the time to take a trip down Richmond from Greenway Plaza to Chimney Rock at 5:30 on any weekday non holiday evening. You will get the idea. Right now there is some road work being done at the left turn lane at Richmond and 610 - inside the loop. On almost any evening coming from the east towards 610 on Richmond it will take you 25 to 45 minutes to travel from Newcastle to 610 loop. I can walk it in five minutes - ten if it is really hot.

I think one thing that the residents of Afton Oaks, a pocket in between Uptown and Highland Village, are failing to realize is that they are blindly stepping in front of thousands of residents who are looking for effective alternative transportation. Because Richmond is already a busy street, alternative transportation such as rail comes with the territory. It says a lot about Afton Oaks about the success of alternative modes of transportation in Houston to improve the quality of life that they still want the line to be on Westpark.

So let's build a train down the middle of Richmond - cut down a few dozen really old Oak trees, and cause some businesses to go under because they are inaccessible during construction. That is what happened on Main Street - perhaps you have forgotten. It really isn't that big of a deal - those businesses were replaced by newer glitzier businesses just ready to take your dollar. What about those poor stiffs that built their businesses on Main Street over a lifetime - only to file bankruptcy, lose their property and see it bought on the courthouse steps at 10 cents on the dollar by one of Metro's cronies - that's the American Way right. Get a piece of the pie even if you have to steal the pie from someone else's plate with help from the government.

You have a point. The success of businesses, particularly in Midtown, did go under during the construction of the Red Line. I think everyone knows this including those "Metro cronies", but I guess you have little faith with the new techniques that Metro has surfaced to prevent such issues. Even techniques to save those trees along Richmond.

Yeah let's build that train down the middle of Richmond - the Afton Oaks neighborhood is changing - lots of young couples raising their kids, kids and parents out walking dogs and riding bikes in the evenings. an idyllic setting to say the least - until traffic get's backed up and a surburbanite road rager decides to cut through from Westheimer to Richmond or Richmond to Westheimer. Madly speeding through the neighborhood to beat traffic. So he runs over a few dogs and kids no big deal. Even if he doesn't he has still made my neighborhood a more dangerous place to live. Tell me that the train will prevent that - I dare you - we all know that it isn't the case.

Are we talking about the same Richmond Avenue here?

This line belongs on Westpark - where Metro already owns the right of way, where the voters approved it. If it is such a boon to business it should revitalize the Westpark corridor - there will be a minimum effect on traffic and people -as there aren't any neighborhoods right on Westpark. Businesses will thrive, and one of Houston's newest business segments - the bicycle taxi will certainly benefit from hauling people back and forth from Richmond to the metro station. Stations along Westpark would also result in more people along Westpark - which in turn would bring more police to the area. If you are from Houston you know that many of the neighborhoods close to Westpark will benefit from a greater police presence.

About that Westpark again. Do Afton Oaks residents take public transportation? Not very smart to place a ral line in no mans land and take a risk about the success it would have. Personally I hated that Westpark was an option to begin with. I am not going to even comment on the bicycle taxis. Let's not forget about the thousands of riders who will be taking the University Line. The heavily used 82 bus on Westheimer that connects Downtown and the Galleria and other buses in the same vicinity, thousands of students and faculty at University of Houston, TSU, University of St Thomas and even possibly Rice University, and the of employees that work in the Greenway Plaza/Upper Kirby area. I doubt many of those individuals would like to hoof it over from Westpark to get to their destinations. Honestly, would you. The benefits of this rail line outweigh the temporary inconveniences.

Edited July 18, 2006 by WesternGulf

[Pumapayam]

lots of wishful thinking on paper but in real life, would be too controversial because lots of land acquisition would be necessary.

I like it too, and hope we get the most connected routes. The scoped routes were interesting to see on paper.

[RedScare]

OK, Ag, can you name any of the businesses that closed on Main Street SOLELY because of rail construction? I can't think of one...and I office on Main Street. I know there were some nightclubs that changed hands and formats before the construction even started. Do you blame METRO for that? I know of one ill advised restaurant that closed during construction...but they were doing poorly BEFORE the construction. Interestingly, the owners of that closed restaurant are still running their successful restaurant half a block away, to this day. And another small businessman opened a restaurant successfully in the old space.

Here are some examples of business in operation before, during and after construction:

Mia Bella 320 Main

St. Pete

[MidtownCoog]

We destroyed Third Ward to build 288.

So I fully support a rail line along Richmond where people live.

Sorry, Afton Oaks, but I don't buy your argument.

[Trae]

When was 288 built?

[IHB2]

This line belongs on Westpark - where Metro already owns the right of way, where the voters approved it. If it is such a boon to business it should revitalize the Westpark corridor - there will be a minimum effect on traffic and people - as there aren't any neighborhoods right on Westpark.

That's correct. There also is no ridership-one of the prerequisites for federal funds.

in fact you're both wrong. there are over 1000 single family homes in Sunset Terrace, Montclair, College Court Place and the West U "chimney" along with a few hundred apt units and some duplexes between the south edge of Sunset Terrace and Bissonnet. The back yards of all single family dwellings on Childress St are only ~30 feet from the METRO Westpark ROW.

Rail on Westpark will have the same kind of distance/noise/cut-through traffic relationship to the homes in these subdivisions as rail on Richmond would to the homes in Afton Oaks.

The civic associations associated with these subdivisions are all on record with METRO and Culberson as opposing rail on Westpark, and in February the West U City Council rejected Martha Wong's request for supporting a Westpark alignment, and is on the record (but with no formal vote) as opposing a Westpark alignment.

but nmainguy is correct that the ridership potential is now and through 2035 projected to be ~75% less for a Westpark alignment than for Richmond.

that's point 1 for why all METRO taxpayers should be outraged that the UC Line may be built in the least cost-effective per rider alignment - Westpark.

point 2 for why all METRO taxpayers should be outraged is Culberson/Wong attempting to short-circuit a public process to benefit a small, but loud and uncivil, percentage of their constituencies at the expense of all taxpayers.

but above all, as I argued elsewhere in this thread, the Westpark alignment will seriously diminish mobility south of 59 for 610, 59, and Westpark Tollway users, and for north/south travel trying to cross 59 on Wesleyan, Buff Spdwy, and Kirby - the only through routes available between 610 and Montrose.

the build-out of any high frequency but slow moving collector/distributor mass transit link in Houston must accomodate existing freeway/tollway systems designed to move large #s of vehicles rapidly. placing LRT on Westpark will have the opposite effect.

[musicman]

OK, Ag, can you name any of the businesses that closed on Main Street SOLELY because of rail construction? I can't think of one...and I office on Main Street.

Saba Blue water grill, the ninfa's venture at the corner of main and prairie, solero, the tapas place that was next door to red cat which changed to a sushi place which is now closed too, la tapatia, patrenella's, the place where se vauge is now has been at least 3 different restaurants and numerous bars/clubs on main. it is harder to remember the ones that are gone than the ones that are still open. I still think the most successful ones are the mom and pop places vs. those that are backed by companies. the mom and pop places can adjust to the market better.

[Highway6]

http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/metrop...an/4054936.html

Thats a pretty damn encouraging story. I look forward to tonight to see this laid out, but it seems they actually have listened alot to what people have to say - both the pro-richmond and anti-richomond people. On Richmond at least to Greenway but not through Afton Oaks, turning north from westpark and connecting directly to uptown line and the galleria....

Edited July 18, 2006 by Highway6

[RedScare]

Saba Blue water grill, the ninfa's venture at the corner of main and prairie, solero, the tapas place that was next door to red cat which changed to a sushi place which is now closed too, la tapatia, patrenella's, the place where se vauge is now has been at least 3 different restaurants and numerous bars/clubs on main. it is harder to remember the ones that are gone than the ones that are still open. I still think the most successful ones are the mom and pop places vs. those that are backed by companies. the mom and pop places can adjust to the market better.

OK, so when are you going to list the ones that closed only because of construction? Several of those opened after the rail line was finished!

My favorite is La Tapatia...2 blocks away from Main Street!

PS - Solero is still open. Saba closed after the rail line opened.

[Houston19514]

OK, Ag, can you name any of the businesses that closed on Main Street SOLELY because of rail construction? I can't think of one...and I office on Main Street. I know there were some nightclubs that changed hands and formats before the construction even started. Do you blame METRO for that? I know of one ill advised restaurant that closed during construction...but they were doing poorly BEFORE the construction. Interestingly, the owners of that closed restaurant are still running their successful restaurant half a block away, to this day. And another small businessman opened a restaurant successfully in the old space.

I am unaware of a single business that went bankrupt and was sold on the courthouse steps...but I know of plenty on Main that opened after the rail began operation.

I am confident that you did not hang out on Main prior to the rail. Only derelicts and 1400 busses daily did. Now, Main is a rebuilt pedestrian friendly street, filling up with restaurants, bars and shops. I know. I walk it daily. So do thousands of others, including parents bringing their kids (as if that means something). Now, that is not what the rail is supposed to do...it's job is transit...but your post is so inaccurate as to be embarrassing.

A little advice. Give verifiable facts in your arguments. Hold your kids' hand when you walk on Richmond. And, keep your dog on a leash. The suburbanite road rager? Not METRO's problem, call the police.

Thanks RedScare. I was thinking the exact same thing. I look forward to Ag's list of businesses ruined by Metro Rail construction, and sold on the court house steps to Metro cronies. I want names! I'm sure Ag has a long list of names or he/she surely would not have posted such slanderous statements.

Edited July 18, 2006 by Houston19514

[Trae]

http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/metrop...an/4054936.html

Thats a pretty damn encouraging story. I look forward to tonight to see this laid out, but it seems they actually have listened alot to what people have to say - both the pro-richmond and anti-richomond people. On Richmond at least to Greenway but not through Afton Oaks, turning north from westpark and connecting directly to uptown line and the galleria....

I like that. The Uptown Line is probably going to be light rail. I hope they add some nice designs to these "train-buses." Maybe some to identify what area the bus is in.

Also, are these lines going to go by colors, or what we are calling them now?

[musicman]

My favorite is La Tapatia...2 blocks away from Main Street!

You mentioned La Carafe which is on the same block. Let have some consistency.

La Carafe and many of the other business will be successful whether the train is there or not. I think that is the point that he was trying to make. Many of the pro rail people have been insisting that BECAUSE of rail, the businesses are successful. That is NOT the case.

Edited July 18, 2006 by musicman

[WesternGulf]

Let's be realistic for a moment though. Richmond and Main, particularly through Midtown, are apples and oranges. Reasons why a business along Main would not be as successful as one on Richmond during construction:

Main street is more narrow than Richmond which might intimidate some people as far as driving in the construction zone that was the Red Line. Main is a lot more ped oriented as far as businesses and parking is not as abundant as it is on Richmmond.

I think Richmond could handle a couple of lanes and a median u/c.

Edited July 18, 2006 by WesternGulf

[GovernorAggie]

Thanks RedScare. I was thinking the exact same thing. I look forward to Ag's list of businesses ruined by Metro Rail construction, and sold on the court house steps to Metro cronies. I want names! I'm sure Ag has a long list of names or he/she surely would not have posted such slanderous statements.

*shivers* please don't call this person Ag. It's embarrassking

By the way, as you all know, Saba became El Centro, which looks to be doing pretty well to me.

[RedScare]

You mentioned La Carafe which is on the same block. Let have some consistency.

La Carafe and many of the other business will be successful whether the train is there or not. I think that is the point that he was trying to make. Many of the pro rail people have been insisting that BECAUSE of rail, the businesses are successful. That is NOT the case.

I predicted La Tapatia's demise while they were building it. Terrible location. La Carafe, OTOH, is a legend. I agree that the businesses will make or break regardless of the rail. Cotswold had more to do with Downtown's comeback than the rail, though the rail helped, not hurt the businesses.

The same will happen on Richmond. New streets and sidewalks, in addition to the rail, will help the businesses that are there. I understand and agree that construction should be planned to be less disruptive, and METRO knows that now, but Ag's argument is just incorrect.

[musicman]

I predicted La Tapatia's demise while they were building it. Terrible location. La Carafe, OTOH, is a legend. I agree that the businesses will make or break regardless of the rail. Cotswold had more to do with Downtown's comeback than the rail, though the rail helped, not hurt the businesses.

The same will happen on Richmond. New streets and sidewalks, in addition to the rail, will help the businesses that are there. I understand and agree that construction should be planned to be less disruptive, and METRO knows that now, but Ag's argument is just incorrect.

According to Carolyn Wenglar who owns La Carafe and Warren's, she said that the rail hasn't helped her businesses at all. Her pet peave is the parking situation downtown though. She speaks before city council often on this subject. She didn't support he changes initiated by the City (Cotswold) which changed the number of on street parking spaces. Many of her regulars have complained about less on street parking due to Cotswold beautification and she doesn't support the new valet parking areas because that means less on street parking as well. Overall she said there hasn't been an increase in business at either estabilishment. Things just look different when you go out the door.

[Transit Nut]

The presentation for the 3 meetings is now on the METRO Solutions website!

http://metrosolutions.org/go/doc/1068/112145/ (click on the large map)

The pictures and concepts in the presentation are quite excellent. Three of my favorites:

• The elevated station at Greenway Plaza (which ultimately depends on which alignment they go with)
  
• The renderings of neighborhood-friendly light rail
  
• The minimal amount of right-of-way needed
  

Unfortunately I will not be able to attend these meetings, so if any of you do go, please let us know what they say!

Edited July 18, 2006 by Transit Nut

[KinkaidAlum]

I agree with AftonOaksAggy.

Rail is bad. It kills trees. It rapes pets. Forces kids into a life of porn. Metro cronies and leftist transportation whackjobs will seize your land and take away your guns!

God save Afton Oaks from clean, reliable transportation. Let Afton Oaks keep her majestic neighbors; the Budget Rent-a-Car, a drive thru Burger King, a tire discounter, a lighting store in a strip mall, kolache factory, a highway, a freight railroad track, the Rajun Cajun, gas stations, and more.

Keep Afton Oaks scenic!

[Houston19514]

I agree with AftonOaksAggy.

Rail is bad. It kills trees. It rapes pets. Forces kids into a life of porn. Metro cronies and leftist transportation whackjobs will seize your land and take away your guns!

God save Afton Oaks from clean, reliable transportation. Let Afton Oaks keep her majestic neighbors; the Budget Rent-a-Car, a drive thru Burger King, a tire discounter, a lighting store in a strip mall, kolache factory, a highway, a freight railroad track, the Rajun Cajun, gas stations, and more.

Keep Afton Oaks scenic!

ROFL Not to mention the 3000 foot wide swath of property Metro will take by eminent domain around each of their stations. ;-)

[Highway6]

Just got back from there... unfortunately, the opposition was as loud and ferocious as ever and there in quite a large numbers.

They all had on bumper stickers that said " IT said 'Westpark', Stupid !! "

Anyways.. the stuff they had there was nice and as someone else said can now be seen on their website.

It wasnt really that much new... except marking possible stations.

I will say.. looks like they have taken turning south at Weslayn off the table, but not turning south at the RR track. Also, despite what the Chronicle article said this morning about the possibility of running the line north at Sage or PostOak and having it connect directly to the Galleria and Uptown line... they had nothing there showing this possibility... which was discouraging. They also had the line extending out to Hilcroft P&R, so I think the likliness of having the University Line have a Galleria Station is decreasing.

It was funny listening to some of the enginners explain over and over again what public ROW is.... what some of these residents dont understand is.. if part of their actual yard is encroaching on the public ROW, then they really have been in the wrong for quite awhile and have no right to complain.

If they lose a few feet.. tough titty..

Personally... if i had 3-4 less feet to mow... hells yeah.. put a sidewalk there.

[Trae]

Not having a Galleria station would just be stupid.

[ricco67]

Dang! I totally forgot it was today!

I don't think it would be a major thing that it doesn't have a galleria stop. While it would be nice if it DID have one, I stop one post oak and have a small shuttle would probably suffice until another line is completed.

The main issue is to try to get more people to ride it to the major population and employment centers.

[TheNiche]

Dang! I totally forgot it was today!

I don't think it would be a major thing that it doesn't have a galleria stop. While it would be nice if it DID have one, I stop one post oak and have a small shuttle would probably suffice until another line is completed.

The main issue is to try to get more people to ride it to the major population and employment centers.

I think that one of the things that the LRT desperately needs is wealthier passengers. A Galleria/Uptown stop would foster that (and serve tourists); shuttles would not do quite so well.

I'm also hestiant about using the Hillcroft's TC for the same reason. I think that if the LRT becomes a moving slum, the folks with lots of money will tend to shy away. If those folks shy away and the LRT is not perceived as a locational asset to those businesses needing to sell things to those with money, then TOD doesn't work because the market demand is insufficient to overcome the cost of land.