METRORail University Line

[Howard Huge]

I've always been for that.

To me, the purpose of trains is to fight traffic. Almost every person on a train, is one less car on the freeway.

That being said, I've always driven down 288 in the thick of horrible traffic, looked over at the median thats as wide as a football field, and pictured this in my head, going to and from Pearland to downtown:

Edited May 15, 2015 by Howard Huge

[cloud713]

Sounds like we have a lot of similar ideas BFS,, I was just Google earth sketching a west side rail system and am utilizing some of the DART style train service as well. I'll probably post it over in the rail charette thread to not side track this topic too much.

[BigFootsSocks]

I'd be curious to see what you come up with, especially for the 290/TCR connection. It would definitely need to be a centralized location, but where?

I doubt there's any harm in posting it here; it's not like this threads going to be used to watch a long-delayed project

[cloud713]

alright, screw it..

Pink - HSR

Red - DART-esque "LRT/Commuter Hybrid"

Yellow - LRT

Green - Elevated rail

Blue - Subway

White - METRO Proposed Uptown line

details - so i put a subway between Chimney Rock and Kirby, on the Westheimer line. in Midtown the Westheimer line would curve north at Brazos, turning into subway again, and shifting east to Smith under downtown, all the way north to the Post Office Site/potential transit hub.

on the i10 line i followed the rail ROW parallel to Washington up across i10, before turning west along Old Katy Road and hitting the NW Transit Center, before continuing on along i10W.

not sure if i would move the Westpark line coming into Midtown over/up onto the Main St LRT line, and have the Westheimer route be heavy rail or try to keep them both "hybrids". i think Westheimer could be heavy rail.

figured i would be different and not pick NW Mall or the Post Office for a HSR station. plus with this location you have pretty good access to 610 by 2 different roads (would obviously be reconstructed/widened) and a very wide road leading to i10 already. and you are at the north end of the N/S east of 610 commuter line i incorporated, linking any HSR arrivals to 4 different East/West lines to connect you across the city. and with this site, there is SO MUCH potential around the site with all the industrial warehouses that could be redeveloped. ideally all the surrounding properties would be bought by the time the HSR line would be up and running, and being redeveloped so the area isn't so crummy looking.

Edited May 15, 2015 by cloud713

[Howard Huge]

Wait cloud, so you don't keep the Westheimer line going down Elgin to U of H, connecting to the University and the Purple line?

[cloud713]

in a perfect world, probably.. though I'm not sure "heavy rail" would be warranted once you get east of the Spur. the University LRT line through that area will probably be enough to serve the local population. i might would consider turning the Heavy Rail south down the spur to Alabama St, before heading east, passing by the new stadium and straight into the heart of UH up University Park Dr. i just feel like Elgin/north of campus is too far disconnected from whats going on at most of UH and would only serve the single family residential between Main and Scott. kind of pointless.

TBH this was only a "West Side Rail Plan" (i didn't really consider anything east, north, or south of my "boundaries"), and i was looking for a quick route into the CBD from the Westheimer line and didn't want to add a transfer at Main/Elgin (which doesn't have an LRT station in the immediate vicinity). i thought it would be convenient to serve the "Skyline District"/corporate side of downtown, and end at the Post Office Site, which would be some sort of transit hub, even if the HSR station ends up out west.

[Montrose1100]

You're putting Elevated in the more dense part of town but making it a subway down the broader strip of Westheimer? Past the west curve of Westheimer also holding on the subway for too long, to what, to bypass the Aloft, some restaurants, and suburban strip centers?

I say boo to you Cloud.

[ADCS]

You're putting Elevated in the more dense part of town but making it a subway down the broader strip of Westheimer? Past the west curve of Westheimer also holding on the subway for too long, to what, to bypass the Aloft, some restaurants, and suburban strip centers?

I say boo to you Cloud.

 

Agreed. How are you going to slap an El in the most walkable part of Montrose? Concrete pillars are imposing and discourage pedestrian traffic, much as they do for elevated freeways. Needs to be a subway from Main to Fountain View.

Edited May 15, 2015 by ADCS

[cloud713]

this is what i get for slapping together a rail plan in ~30 minutes. lol.. didn't get to consider everything. at upwards of half a billion dollars per mile, my thinking was subway is too expensive to put down the entirety of that route, so i had to pick and choose. TBH I'm not too familiar with the Westrose intersection. is it one of the more walkable parts of Montrose? glancing at a map its where the half priced books is, in what appears to be a suburban strip center, next to a suburban Kroger, next to a suburban Walgreens..? there do appear to be some nice restaurants in the area though, so if thats the case hopefully all the aforementioned suburban stuff can be redeveloped.

I'm not sure where you mean by "some restaurants and suburban strip centers"? theGalleria/River Oaks District/Azalea Court/Highland Village/River Oaks/ect would not be cool with an El going through there.. that part pretty much had to be subway. and obviously the stretch through downtown. as for being "wider", yeah, but traffic is historically worse through the west side..

since this seems to be a reoccurring issue, and Montrosians would probably freak (though you could make the structure really artsy through there. leave the neatly designed infrastructure as blank white "canvases" for local artists to periodically paint up, with neat lighting at night.. idk?), but i tried to figure out how to dip it down below grade before and after Montrose and there really aren't any opportunities without just being a big ass dip in the middle of segment from the Midtown curve-north and the Kirby dip down to subway. so IMO it would either have to be all subway from Brazos to Chimney Rock, or basically what i have sketched up.

damn i just rambled hard.. rail, man.

[Montrose1100]

this is what i get for slapping together a rail plan in ~30 minutes. lol.. didn't get to consider everything. at upwards of half a billion dollars per mile, my thinking was subway is too expensive to put down the entirety of that route, so i had to pick and choose. TBH I'm not too familiar with the Westrose intersection. is it one of the more walkable parts of Montrose? glancing at a map its where the half priced books is, in what appears to be a suburban strip center, next to a suburban Kroger, next to a suburban Walgreens..? there do appear to be some nice restaurants in the area though, so if thats the case hopefully all the aforementioned suburban stuff can be redeveloped.

I'm not sure where you mean by "some restaurants and suburban strip centers"? theGalleria/River Oaks District/Azalea Court/Highland Village/River Oaks/ect would not be cool with an El going through there.. that part pretty much had to be subway. and obviously the stretch through downtown. as for being "wider", yeah, but traffic is historically worse through the west side..

since this seems to be a reoccurring issue, and Montrosians would probably freak (though you could make the structure really artsy through there. leave the neatly designed infrastructure as blank white "canvases" for local artists to periodically paint up, with neat lighting at night.. idk?), but i tried to figure out how to dip it down below grade before and after Montrose and there really aren't any opportunities without just being a big ass dip in the middle of segment from the Midtown curve-north and the Kirby dip down to subway. so IMO it would either have to be all subway from Brazos to Chimney Rock, or basically what i have sketched up.

damn i just rambled hard.. rail, man.

I was talking about subway past the galleria west of Westheimer (to what, Chimney Rock)? Anything Within a 5-7 mile radius of Downtown and immediate Galleria area should be underground and out of sight. Anything on Westheimer in the loop should be underground. There are some exceptions. Having light rail down Memorial would be grand (through the park), certain areas of town can handle a light rail on the ground (maybe not sharing traffic lights with the street).

You can slap all the art you want on an elevated line but it will still remain. It could be done down the western portion of Westheimer I guess. But it's still going to be a blight.

I say boo sir. Boo to elevated and boo to you. Just kidding around Cloud. I'm just as passionate as everyone else and I'm simply critiquing your 30 minute rail plan.

[cloud713]

all good.. i was just running off of some of the ideas from the elevated rail discussion yesterday.

so i guess if we subwayed Westheimer from the Galleria to downtown, all that would be elevated would be the far west Westheimer line, outside the loop, and a small stretch from the Westpark ROW east over the section along the Carter, and north into the Main St light rail line (i realized it made sense to run the Westpark line that way since Westpark would be guy wire/LRT style powered vehicles vs 3rd rail heavy rail on the Westheimer/downtown line).

yeah i don't really want any of the new yellow LRT lines out west sharing vehicle traffic, or being straddled by lanes on both sides like our inner city lines.

[samagon]

You guys all think too small. Pie in the sky...

 

Commuter line:

From Townsen park and ride to First Colony mall. middle of 59 the whole way.

Stops:

Townsen park and ride

Will Clayton Pkwy

Eastex park and ride

Texas Ave (stadiums and LR)

Elgin

Fannin (red line LR)

Greenway

Uptown (wherever the LR is supposed to go)

Hillcroft TC

Bellaire Blvd

Westwood park and ride

Bellfort park and ride

New park and ride to be built near first colony mall

 

Another commuter line:

starts at elgin and 288, down to at least pearland town center. middle of 288 the whole way.

holcombe ave

reed road

pearland town center

 

New LR:

from 288 on Holcomb to HW6 on bellaire.

stops everywhere!

but definitely stops:

red line

59

 

'nother new LR:

from eastwood TC on elgin to HW6 on Westheimer (it would be LR from EWTC to Smith st, then subway to chimney rock, then LR again the rest of the way)

stops everywhere!

but definitely stops:

288

main

galleria

 

that's about it. go ahead and get this to METRO board, tell them I can start next Tuesday, and the salary I've set for myself is fair for both parties.

Edited May 15, 2015 by samagon

[cloud713]

lol, now we've really starting to turn this into the Rail Charette thread. which is totally cool, just maybe slightly more appropriate over there? i love the ideas Samagon.. I've definitely implemented more than one of those plans in plans over in the Charette.

[Luminare]

you know there is a rail thread for this stuff >.>

[morrchr1]

http://www.houstontomorrow.org/livability/story/rep.-john-culberson-and-metro-reach-deal-on-university-line/#When:19:17:22Z

 

Does this mean another vote for the University line as it was previously designed?  In today's anti-road money climate, I think that would pass easily!

[IronTiger]

http://www.houstontomorrow.org/livability/story/rep.-john-culberson-and-metro-reach-deal-on-university-line/#When:19:17:22Z

Does this mean another vote for the University line as it was previously designed? In today's anti-road money climate, I think that would pass easily!

I think it's for federal funding on Richmond, I think the Afton Oaks plan has been officially dead for years.

[morrchr1]

I think it's for federal funding on Richmond, I think the Afton Oaks plan has been officially dead for years.

 

That would be fine. It would make more sense if a heavy rail is added on the Westpark easement later anyways, right?

[IronTiger]

That would be fine. It would make more sense if a heavy rail is added on the Westpark easement later anyways, right?

Most of the east part of the Westpark heading east toward downtown is pretty much unusable. I can't imagine rail of any type wedged between 59 and the houses in the University Place area.

[cloud713]

yeah, the rail would have to be trenched most likely through that segment of Westpark ITL, but it would be a damn shame if METRO couldn't figure out a way to utilize the rest of that corridor. they could almost get it all the way to the Main St line if they got creative and elevated it around the new Carter tower and utilities. otherwise i guess it could cut north at Yoakum, since the METRO ROW ends at Montrose.

i just thought of something (topic related, heh)..

does Richmond need to be resurfaced through Afton Oaks? or are road conditions through there okay. a lot of Richmond is terrible but i don't venture through AO often. i was thinking if the roads need to be replaced, continue the Richmond/University Line as originally envisioned, into Uptown, and get them to cut/cover trenched segments through Afton Oaks so the residents aren't "bothered" by them or whatever.

Edited May 15, 2015 by cloud713

[IronTiger]

yeah, the rail would have to be trenched most likely through that segment of Westpark ITL.

i just thought of something (topic related, heh)..

does Richmond need to be resurfaced through Afton Oaks? or are road conditions through there okay. a lot of Richmond is terrible but i don't venture through AO often. i was thinking if the roads need to be replaced, continue the Richmond/University Line as originally envisioned, into Uptown, and get them to cut/cover trenched segments through Afton Oaks so the residents aren't "bothered" by them or whatever.

Part of the thing against rail through Afton Oaks is the oaks themselves, and depending on the type, tend to die if the roots are disturbed. This also relates to why some sidewalk repair is difficult for the same reason.

Edit: a bike path would be nice for the rest of the ROW

Edited May 15, 2015 by IronTiger

[ADCS]

Part of the thing against rail through Afton Oaks is the oaks themselves, and depending on the type, tend to die if the roots are disturbed. This also relates to why some sidewalk repair is difficult for the same reason.

Edit: a bike path would be nice for the rest of the ROW

 

Houston so often seems to be a place where rationality is placed on a high pedestal... until trees are involved.

[IronTiger]

Houston so often seems to be a place where rationality is placed on a high pedestal... until trees are involved.

Well, I do think the Wendy's tree removal issue was kinda ridiculous, at least the press Swamplot gave it.

[samagon]

Part of the thing against rail through Afton Oaks is the oaks themselves, and depending on the type, tend to die if the roots are disturbed. This also relates to why some sidewalk repair is difficult for the same reason.

Edit: a bike path would be nice for the rest of the ROW

 

Correction, the trees were one of the reasons AO residents provided for why the rail shouldn't pass down Richmond. Whether this is really the reason they don't want rail down Richmond is another matter that is up for discussion.

 

If this truly is one of their concerns, the loss of these trees (at least in my opinion) does not outweigh the cost of having to fly the LR over 59.

 

Especially when you consider that it crosses at a point that doesn't have it go through the heart of greenway, easy access to this huge employment center should be paramount, and you'd think that the directors of the greenway area would lobby for easy LR access pretty hard. especially considering the positive impacts LR seems to be having all along the red line corridor (look at the proximity of every single residential development to the red line along the corridor, it's amazing).

 

I think I said it in another thread, but given 5 more years developers all over the city are going to be pushing really hard for more fixed guide-way transit near their properties, we're reaching a watershed mark.

 

When this is put back on the ballot, I expect a fair number of commercials paid for by developers and land owners recommending people vote for light rail on Richmond (whether it ends up being a yes, or no vote that OKs light rail is another matter).

 

edit: here's the thread:

http://www.houstonarchitecture.com/haif/topic/32109-gerald-hines-calls-for-more-mass-transit-in-houston/

 

I wonder how much of the speech from Hines helped Culberson change his stance?

Edited May 15, 2015 by samagon

[cloud713]

I think I said it in another thread, but given 5 more years developers all over the city are going to be pushing really hard for more fixed guide-way transit near their properties, we're reaching a watershed mark.

 

When this is put back on the ballot, I expect a fair number of commercials paid for by developers and land owners recommending people vote for light rail on Richmond (whether it ends up being a yes, or no vote that OKs light rail is another matter).

i think its already happening. Gerald Hines gave that talk about Houston needing more mass transit a week or two ago. and as you pointed out on the red line, lots of developers are seeing the benefits of the rail throughout midtown and downtown.

we also need to remember, not only will a Culbertson revote allow for the University Line to potentially be built, but also the Uptown Line to be built out as LRT instead of BRT.

[ADCS]

i think its already happening. Gerald Hines gave that talk about Houston needing more mass transit a week or two ago. and as you pointed out on the red line, lots of developers are seeing the benefits of the rail throughout midtown and downtown.

we also need to remember, not only will a Culbertson revote allow for the University Line to potentially be built, but also the Uptown Line to be built out as LRT instead of BRT.

 

Let's not keep our aspirations limited. Rail on Post Oak, sure - but as heavy rail that connects the TCR station (if it's at the NW Mall site, like I'm expecting it to be) with Uptown,  Highland Village, River Oaks, Upper Kirby, Greenway Plaza, Montrose, Midtown and Downtown. This could be something that knits Houston's urban core together in a way that was unimaginable even 10 years ago.

 

In the end, the problem with the University and Uptown Lines wasn't that they were too disruptive, it was that they didn't think big enough on them.

[nativehoustonion]

I believe Gerald Hines did it.  When he did his speech that Houston must do something about mass transit. He said not just for Houston but for the Woodlands, Sugar Land and the whole metro area.  We must have heavy rail connecting to our light rail lines to save our infrastructure.  We will have 2 International airports, one of largest ports in the world, and almost 7 million in population.  But no transportation plan!  We must have leadership for the next 20 years.

[Slick Vik]

It's possible Culberson also realized there's no chance for Richmond road repair without the rail project.

[IronTiger]

I hate to open old wounds, but I do see one way around the Richmond rail thing that may be able to satisfy most parties: part of the problem with rail on Richmond would be that it would essentially narrow the road to two lanes and make it more difficult to turn left and generally be worthless as a major thoroughfare. Why not take advantage of the mandatory setbacks as dictated by old zoning rules to widen the ROW, allow for the same amount of lanes, and create the "urban" look with that?

[cspwal]

That's an interesting idea, though I suspect a lot of the opposition of the Richmond line was more during the construction phase than once it was done.

[j_cuevas713]

Out of curiosity I wandered to the Metro website and saw that the FTA finalized the environmental study on this line which gives Metro the right to tweak the design. This is awesome news and I knew nothing about this. Even if it goes back to the ballot box, its clear by how packed the trains and busses are that people want public transportation.