METRORail University Line

[musicman]

I think that one of the things that the LRT desperately needs is wealthier passengers. A Galleria/Uptown stop would foster that (and serve tourists); shuttles would not do quite so well.

I'm also hestiant about using the Hillcroft's TC for the same reason. I think that if the LRT becomes a moving slum, the folks with lots of money will tend to shy away. If those folks shy away and the LRT is not perceived as a locational asset to those businesses needing to sell things to those with money, then TOD doesn't work because the market demand is insufficient to overcome the cost of land.

the current line has quite a few homeless due to the number of churches/shelters offering meals in the proximity. i had to go to memorial hermann for last month or so and i couldn't believe how many homeless were waiting in line at church at fannin at macgregor for free breakfast. then they get back in train and head downtown when done.

since they wanted it to replace bus lines. it will attract the same customers. if there were less stops, those farther out would be more tempted to use it cause it REALLY would save travel time. that's why the park and ride is so successful.

Edited July 19, 2006 by musicman

[AftonAg]

Obviously I have stumbled onto a chat room that has its favorites. Not a problem for me. I also note by some of the responses that from the letters Ag at the end of my tag it was ass/u/med that I must be a Texas Aggie. I am smiling at some of the comments that were made, and disappointed in some.

My purpose in posting was to attempt to give non-Afton Oaks residents my perspective and that of some of my neighbors. Read you did an equisite job of dissecting my "logic". Poor fellow, that was just a few random thoughts that I cobbled together over lunch. Sitting at my desk having a salad. I note from the times of your postings that you needed all of lunch "on Main Street", "Yes that Main Street" to partake of a meal and get your thoughts together.

The bottom line to me and most of my neighbors is property value. Plain and simple. Yep its all about the money. I purchased my current dwelling in the late 70's for 85K, the current tax appraisal is 400K+. I won't be exact as a matter of decorum, and because it really isn't anyone else's business.

I was accused of making a slanderous comment regarding the businesses that went bankrupt along Main while Metro was building that line. I was also requested to provide a list of the businesses that went bankrupt or were properties that were sold on the court house steps. Guess what I don't have the energy for it.

I will admit that I was naive in posting to what I thought was a friendly discussion regarding the Metro "Railroading of Richmond". But I am a little surprised at the that others might be so naive when it comes to the political end of it.

You are likely too young to remember the scandal under "Mayor Bob" and the Grand Parkway - look it up I am not going into it. For the record I met Mayor Bob before he was mayor and in fact his was at one time a very close friend of one of his children. To most of the respondents I would just say this, " Rice is a very tough school - get back to studying or mommy and daddy may not be happy next time you come home.

So I plead guilty, guilty to being wealthy, and apparently that is a crime on this forum. I have not seen any posting's that have changed my mind. Perhaps in the next round someone will be able to persuade me. Just for background I have traveled all over the world and utilized mass transit in Paris, London, Berlin, Rome, and many other cities. I am not against mass transit - I think it is a good idea, I just don't want on Richmond. The Paris rail transit system is easy to use, reasonably clean, and reasonably reliable when the operators aren't on strike.

To touch on the Aggie comment - I have a child at The University of Texas, a child at Texas A&M, and my youngest will be attending Harvard this fall. You figure it out.

[Guest danax]

Obviously I have stumbled onto a chat room that has its favorites. Not a problem for me.

You're right about that, but I would guess that the vast majority of Houstonians would vote for a straight shot down Richmond as the best plan. And I would say, for the most part, we do tend to discuss pure issues and ideas and not get into personal nit-picking.

It's good to see someone finally post from Afton Oaks. NIMBYs are often on the minority side of public opinion but they're inspiring examples of what a minority group can do if their collective voice is loud and clear. The "what's best for the citizens" vs NIMBYs is a classic American process and I enjoy watching it and have faith that it will result in something decent, but not ideal. That's just the way compromises work.

And I say compromise because it would appear that that is what will happen, if David Wolff's comment in the Chronicle regarding dropping the line down to Westpark at Greenway as option, "I could live with either one.", isn't a lie.

So congratulations (not a snide comment) and welcome to our group.

[KinkaidAlum]

It would be a MAJOR mistake to not include a Galleria station.

#1 The train is designed to unite major employment centers. Last time I checked, the Galleria mall, surrounding hotels, and attached office towers would qualify.

#2 The train is also being used as a tool to make Houston more attractive to our out of town guests. If a rider from Denver could hop on a train near his downtown hotel, make one transfer, and then get off at the Galleria, that's a PLUS. If he has to take a train, make a connection, and gets dumped at some park and ride in the middle of beautiful Southwest Houston, uh...Not so Much!

#3 You have to build rail where the riders are. You cannot rely on future development to fill trains because you lose your shot at federal funding. That to me is what this whole opposition is about, other than Afton Oaksers worrying about their property values.

#4 Light rail needs to go where people want to go to encourage cars to get off the road. If you live at the Courts at Museum Gate, would you walk one block down Montrose to board a train if it went right down Richmond to your job at the Greenway Plaza? Yes. Would you take it to the Galleria Station to shop or dine? Highly likely. Would you take it to catch a movie at the Edwards in order to avoid the garage? Probably. Now, would you do any of those things if it went down Westpark? Uh, NO. You'd drive your car.

#5 Light rail is also used to encourage future development. While it's been slower than some have hoped in Houston, the original line has created downtown living like the Commerce Towers, hotels like the ZaZa, a new massive medical tower in the tmc, and future proposals like the Pavilions, TMC Transit Center, and Hardy Yards. With CenterPoint's right of way down the North side of Westpark, there is LITTLE opportunity for light rail to foster growth on Westpark. That's not good.

I will be so disappointed if a small neighborhood like Afton Oaks and a few renegade politicians F this thing up for Houston. If we indeed have to put it down Richmond and then turn it to Westpark and then miss the Galleria, then why in the Hell should we even build it? It will FAIL.

Of course, that is what I truly believe is the opposition's real wish. They want this line to fail so that there won't be future lines. This sin't about oak trees and killing dog walkers, this is about stopping government spending for the PUBLIC good and a perceived notion that rail will detract from a property's value, although all evidence says OTHERWISE. Being near the rail has increased property values in Houston and in EVERY other city that has built rail recently!

[Houston19514]

Obviously I have stumbled onto a chat room that has its favorites. Not a problem for me. I also note by some of the responses that from the letters Ag at the end of my tag it was ass/u/med that I must be a Texas Aggie. I am smiling at some of the comments that were made, and disappointed in some.

My purpose in posting was to attempt to give non-Afton Oaks residents my perspective and that of some of my neighbors. Read you did an equisite job of dissecting my "logic". Poor fellow, that was just a few random thoughts that I cobbled together over lunch. Sitting at my desk having a salad. I note from the times of your postings that you needed all of lunch "on Main Street", "Yes that Main Street" to partake of a meal and get your thoughts together.

The bottom line to me and most of my neighbors is property value. Plain and simple. Yep its all about the money. I purchased my current dwelling in the late 70's for 85K, the current tax appraisal is 400K+. I won't be exact as a matter of decorum, and because it really isn't anyone else's business.

I was accused of making a slanderous comment regarding the businesses that went bankrupt along Main while Metro was building that line. I was also requested to provide a list of the businesses that went bankrupt or were properties that were sold on the court house steps. Guess what I don't have the energy for it.

I will admit that I was naive in posting to what I thought was a friendly discussion regarding the Metro "Railroading of Richmond". But I am a little surprised at the that others might be so naive when it comes to the political end of it.

You are likely too young to remember the scandal under "Mayor Bob" and the Grand Parkway - look it up I am not going into it. For the record I met Mayor Bob before he was mayor and in fact his was at one time a very close friend of one of his children. To most of the respondents I would just say this, " Rice is a very tough school - get back to studying or mommy and daddy may not be happy next time you come home.

So I plead guilty, guilty to being wealthy, and apparently that is a crime on this forum. I have not seen any posting's that have changed my mind. Perhaps in the next round someone will be able to persuade me. Just for background I have traveled all over the world and utilized mass transit in Paris, London, Berlin, Rome, and many other cities. I am not against mass transit - I think it is a good idea, I just don't want on Richmond. The Paris rail transit system is easy to use, reasonably clean, and reasonably reliable when the operators aren't on strike.

To touch on the Aggie comment - I have a child at The University of Texas, a child at Texas A&M, and my youngest will be attending Harvard this fall. You figure it out.

Well, aren't you something? To be able to cobble together a bunch of slanderous crap off the top of your head and then plead lack of energy when challenged to provide support for your statements. Are you through now? Do you even have any support for your proposition that a rail line running on Richmond through Afton Oaks will lower the property value you are so proud of? I presume you don't have the energy to gather those fact either. Do you have the energy to explain what exactly your ranting about suburban road ragers have to do with light rail?

This is, in fact, generally a friendly board where people exchange ideas and facts and are, for the most part prepared to back up their statements. Try to come up with some facts to support your opinions and statements; we'll look forward to seeing them.

Edited July 19, 2006 by Houston19514

[Transit Nut]

Also, despite what the Chronicle article said this morning about the possibility of running the line north at Sage or PostOak and having it connect directly to the Galleria and Uptown line... they had nothing there showing this possibility... which was discouraging. They also had the line extending out to Hilcroft P&R, so I think the likliness of having the University Line have a Galleria Station is decreasing.

I'm not sure what additional displays they had at the meeting, but based on what they have online I don't see anything contradicting what Mr. Wilson said in the Chronicle.

Look at the map here: http://metrosolutions.org/go/doc/1068/112145/

"Wilson said Metro is also studying having the University Line light rail trains switch onto the planned Uptown Line on South Post Oak, enabling passengers to reach the Galleria shopping area without having to transfer." (http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/front/4054936.html)

I think many of you are thinking, if it's going to the Hillcroft TC, it can't go to the Galleria as well. That may not be true. What if one train, headed west from Main St., terminated at Hillcroft, and the next train terminated at San Felipe at Post Oak, and trains keep alternating between termini? For example, in Dallas, both the Red and Blue lines share track in Downtown but then split off to different termini at Mockingbird Station. As long as they connect the University Corridor and the Uptown Corridor appropriately, there shouldn't be anything to prevent westbound trains from getting to the Galleria as well as to the Hillcroft TC.

This dual-termini setup works especially well if the tracks transition from Richmond to Westpark, say around Greenway Plaza. This also avoids Afton Oaks.

[The Voice of University Oaks]

First of all, I'm actually glad that an Afton Oaks resident came to this forum to express his views. Unpopular as his opinion might be, he is a real person who owns real property along Richmond and his side of the story ought to be heard. His views on the University Corridor are no less valid than mine (I am a real person who owns real property one block off of Wheeler near the University of Houston who works in a real building on Timmons one block off of Richmond) or anyone else's. So let's be civil without piling up on him.

That being said, if Afton Oaks residents prefer the hundreds of diesel-belching buses that currently run up and down Richmond through their neighborhood today over the possibility of an electrically-powered light rail vehicle one day gliding through their 'hood, so be it. The truth is, I don't think it should go through Afton Oaks anyway. Not enough ridership there.

I was at tonight's meeting. A lot of good, respectful dialogue. There was some unfortunate name-calling and bickering as well (coming from people on *both* sides of the Richmond argument, I'd add), but most of the discussion was civil. The "no Richmond" folks were there in force, yes, but they were by no means the only constituency present; a number of pro-Richmond people were there as well.

METRO has taken the Reliant ROW hugging the south side of US-59 off the table, which is as I had expected. It's too narrow and it doesn't serve anybody. The attractors and generators that would create ridership - HSPVA and University of St. Thomas students, Menil and Rothko Chapel patrons, residents of the older, pedestrian-oriented Montrose neighborhoods - are all on the north side of 59 anyway. Thus, if this thing is built it's going to go down Richmond at least as far as Shepherd. From there, METRO is looking at several places where the train can transition from Richmond over (or under) 59 to Westpark: Shepherd, Edloe, some street within Greenway Plaza, Timmons, the UP right-of-way parallel to Weslayan, Post Oak or Sage.

METRO has also extended the line from its recent terminus at South Rice to its original (referendum) terminus at Hillcroft Transit Center, which I believe is a good thing because it will better serve one of the densest and most transit-dependent neighborhoods in the city: Gulfton. It also foretells the concept of future extensions to Gessner, Westchase, Mission Bend and maybe even Clodine.

IHB2 has come up with an excellent argument on this thread as to why the line should not go down Westpark at all. I agree with him in theory, but I think political reality is going to force this line into the Westpark ROW at some point along its alignment.

I think the best option would be at Greenway Plaza. That way it serves one of the five largest employment centers in the city (as well as what is rumored to be the largest church in the entire nation) and it avoids completely screwing up Shepherd, Kirby and Buffalo Speedway between the Westpark ROW and southbound 59 frontage road. Furthermore, the train at Weslayan would probably be grade-separated due to the fact that it is not going to cross the UP line at grade. Thus, the only real problem area becomes the junction of Westpark, Post Oak and the 610 frontage roads at the 59/610 interchange (which, granted, is a mess as it is).

However, I have a feeling that political forces (think John Culberson and Martha Wong) as well as withering opposition from businesses along Richmond (who, understandably, fear the train on the basis of what it *might* do to their businesses and are already preparing to sue METRO) are going to try to force the transition to occur at Shepherd. Never mind the fact that such an alignment would completely screw up the movement of traffic along Shepherd, Kirby and Buffalo Speedway south of 59 and completely miss Greenway Plaza (unless we build some costly pedestrian bridge over 59 from Westpark to Greenway that nobody would use anyway): there's a "best solution" from an engineering and planning standpoint, and there's a "best solution" from the political/legal standpoint, and Shepherd might be a case of the latter beating the former.

I'm also going to be at Monday night's meeting at the Third Ward Multi-Service Center. There's also a meeting Tuesday night at St. Paul's United Methodist Church. The University Line could be one of the most important public works projects in the city's history, especially as gas prices continue to spiral upward and the inner loop continues to densify. Folks, if you care about this issue one way or another, BE THERE.

[RedScare]

Read you did an equisite job of dissecting my "logic". Poor fellow, that was just a few random thoughts that I cobbled together over lunch. Sitting at my desk having a salad. I note from the times of your postings that you needed all of lunch "on Main Street", "Yes that Main Street" to partake of a meal and get your thoughts together.

I assume you meant to type "Red". Sorry it took me so long to respond. I'm self-employed, and so gave up eating at my desk long ago. Since it is only Tuesday, I kept it to 2 hours.

Now, on to important matters.

Skipping AO won't hurt things much. It may actually help. The distance from Richmond to Westpark around the Compaq Oasis of Love is only a quarter mile at best. Heading back north on the other side of 610 is roughly another quarter mile. There is absolutely nothing on Richmond through Afton Oaks of any use to rail patrons. However, there is retail, residential and developable land on that stretch of Westpark. As far as the potential for more destinations and residents who would actually use the rail, this small stretch of Westpark is preferable.

I hope METRO chooses this route. Despite the flawed logic of the AO residents, if they don't want it, and the detour doesn't derail the whole line (pun), they shouldn't have to look at it. I want it in MY neighborhood, but that's me.

BTW, good to see Greenway Plaza coming out in support on the U-Line. Politically, that is very helpful.

[Trae]

Red, what about that connection with the Galleria. Isn't Westpark to far south.

[firstngoal]

I'll be at next Tuesday's meeting... showing my support of rail down Richmond to at least Greenway Plaza. And, ardently supporting continued expansion of METRO light rail in Houston.

I am really tired of the Afton Oaks crowd. They are vehemently against rail on Richmond - fine. No problem. They are totally entitled. But the condescension - and hypocrisy - I have seen repeatedly in public forums from this group sickens me. They rally against the degradation in their quality of life if light rail were to go through their neighborhood... yet apparently don't complain about the loud, belching freight trains (hauling hazardous cargo, no less!) that roll right next to the neighborhood many times a day. They cry for the future of their stately oaks along Richmond (really?), yet don't mention a damn thing about the invasion of McMansions that rip the hell out of the tree canopy on their streets. They moan about the traffic driving too fast through their neighborhood... yet I haven't heard a peep from these "concerned citizens" about the developers that throw up retail, office, and apartment developments around their tranquil subdivision... you know, the very developments that generate all that traffic! So, Afton Oaks, going to try and stop the development at West Creek?... or further development in Highland Village?... or how about the proposal on the HISD land?? Gonna produce bumper stickers and talk down to the rest of Houston about that?? Yeah, didn't think so...

Good luck to you folks in your traffic-clogged, one-upping, we-are-better-than-you Wonderland.

[TheNiche]

I'll be at next Tuesday's meeting... showing my support of rail down Richmond to at least Greenway Plaza. And, ardently supporting continued expansion of METRO light rail in Houston.

I am really tired of the Afton Oaks crowd. They are vehemently against rail on Richmond - fine. No problem. They are totally entitled. But the condescension - and hypocrisy - I have seen repeatedly in public forums from this group sickens me. They rally against the degradation in their quality of life if light rail were to go through their neighborhood... yet apparently don't complain about the loud, belching freight trains (hauling hazardous cargo, no less!) that roll right next to the neighborhood many times a day. They cry for the future of their stately oaks along Richmond (really?), yet don't mention a damn thing about the invasion of McMansions that rip the hell out of the tree canopy on their streets. They moan about the traffic driving too fast through their neighborhood... yet I haven't heard a peep from these "concerned citizens" about the developers that throw up retail, office, and apartment developments around their tranquil subdivision... you know, the very developments that generate all that traffic! So, Afton Oaks, going to try and stop the development at West Creek?... or further development in Highland Village?... or how about the proposal on the HISD land?? Gonna produce bumper stickers and talk down to the rest of Houston about that?? Yeah, didn't think so...

Good luck to you folks in your traffic-clogged, one-upping, we-are-better-than-you Wonderland.

Actually, they (along with Bellaire) complained quite loudly about freight train noise. I've heard (can't remember where) that there is a new silence rule that applies to the UP track at night now. A number of them that also complain about McMansions, but they don't have a very loud voice because Bellaire and Heights folks are more numerous...they just kind of blend into the background. Also, when people complain about development nearby, they usually don't get almost any coverage at all unless there's a semilegitimate legal snarl (like in the Essex case). What would even be the point in complaining, anyway, about projects which are clearly beyond their control? On the other hand, they do have a voice and a stake in the LRT alignment.

I can't say that I'm pissed with them for taking the stance that they have. There are some nights quiet enough that I can hear the LRT horn from my patio. I can also understand how they'd be really pissed about losing the oak-lined boulevard. The LRT is legitimately annoying and is incompatible with this single-family neighborhood.

My only complaint with them...and it is a big one...is that they won't keep the issue so simple. Many of them try to throw other things out there to see what sticks. They overcomplicate the issue with nonsense. I can see how, from their point of view, it is considered a necessary evil of the political realm...but it pisses me the hell off.

[CE_ugh]

What I think some along richmond fail to grasp is that Richmond at some point in the future will require a major street reconstruction. I drive down Richmond almost everyday now, and while the street is very busy, it is also in increasingly poor condition. As someone who's parents experienced first hand how ANY road work hurts business, I know that the businesses and home owners on Richmond will be adversely affected some time in the near future. It's a fact of life in the big city, and a good businessperson would be prepared for it, whether they be on Richmond, Kirby or Studemont.

[AftonAg]

Nmainguy - you so missed the point on the traffic back-ups caused by the minor road work going on @ Richmond & the 610 Loop. If this minor bit of road work backs up traffic from the loop all the way to Newcastle just try to imagine the effect of rail construction on that entire segment. Traffic will be backed up all the way to Greenway Plaza, to the east and all the way to Chimney Rock to the West, and for those East bound by the time they reach Newcastle they will be desparately searching for a path around the traffic. There are only three paths after the railroad tracks, Mid-lane - another neighborhood to cut through that is against Richmond Rail, Newcastle - through Afton Oaks, both of which will put the driver on Westheimer - or the street at the west end of Afton Oaks heading south to the feeder along 610 that will only return the driver to the intersection of the North 610 feeder and Richmond.

[AftonAg]

You're right about that, but I would guess that the vast majority of Houstonians would vote for a straight shot down Richmond as the best plan. And I would say, for the most part, we do tend to discuss pure issues and ideas and not get into personal nit-picking.

It's good to see someone finally post from Afton Oaks. NIMBYs are often on the minority side of public opinion but they're inspiring examples of what a minority group can do if their collective voice is loud and clear. The "what's best for the citizens" vs NIMBYs is a classic American process and I enjoy watching it and have faith that it will result in something decent, but not ideal. That's just the way compromises work.

And I say compromise because it would appear that that is what will happen, if David Wolff's comment in the Chronicle regarding dropping the line down to Westpark at Greenway as option, "I could live with either one.", isn't a lie.

So congratulations (not a snide comment) and welcome to our group.

Danax - Thanks it is nice to note that a few folks in this group were able to take my comments as they were intended. I agree that there will be a compromise - and I think the line will turn south on or before Weslayan and make it's way to Westpark. You are correct regarding ridership in the Afton Oaks area -

I think another possibly overlooked phenomenon here is touched on in your post. When a group like those in Afton Oaks - comes out against something and uses all of their resources and is united in their effort a small number can generate a lot of attention, and that is seen by many people as the rich getting their way when all we are doing is effectively using the system.

On the other hand when a less affluent group does exactly the same thing many are likely to take up that cause and see it as a "noble effort", the old us versus them. Intersting isn't it.

No I did not miss your point. I pointed out the tempoary nature of the construction. It's a non-issue when you are constructing a 100 year piece of infrastructure. By your "logic", we should never do any road construction anywhere because it might slow things down a bit ie I10 re-built, West Loop re-build, future Richmond re-build, Studewood re-build...the list goes on and on. You will always have inconvinience when you live in a large city when it comes to infrastructure construction.

Now that the new proposals are on the table, I'm supporting the most direct of the two: straight down Richmond. Including the esplanade, there are potentially the equivilent of 8 traffic lanes to put a two track LRT in. If some trees are lost, well so be it. One very small minority and a couple of power-grabbing politicians trying to back-door trash this line does a disservice to the entire city.

Okay well obviously you see this as an us versus them - them being the Afton Oaks crowd. Your only interest at this point is to see to it that the rail goes through the Afton Oaks neighborhood - a place I am sure you have never visited.

[ricco67]

Obviously I have stumbled onto a chat room that has its favorites. Not a problem for me. I also note by some of the responses that from the letters Ag at the end of my tag it was ass/u/med that I must be a Texas Aggie. I am smiling at some of the comments that were made, and disappointed in some.

I was accused of making a slanderous comment regarding the businesses that went bankrupt along Main while Metro was building that line. I was also requested to provide a list of the businesses that went bankrupt or were properties that were sold on the court house steps. Guess what I don't have the energy for it.

I will admit that I was naive in posting to what I thought was a friendly discussion regarding the Metro "Railroading of Richmond". But I am a little surprised at the that others might be so naive when it comes to the political end of it.

You are likely too young to remember the scandal under "Mayor Bob" and the Grand Parkway - look it up I am not going into it. For the record I met Mayor Bob before he was mayor and in fact his was at one time a very close friend of one of his children. To most of the respondents I would just say this, " Rice is a very tough school - get back to studying or mommy and daddy may not be happy next time you come home.

So I plead guilty, guilty to being wealthy, and apparently that is a crime on this forum. I have not seen any posting's that have changed my mind. Perhaps in the next round someone will be able to persuade me. Just for background I have traveled all over the world and utilized mass transit in Paris, London, Berlin, Rome, and many other cities. I am not against mass transit - I think it is a good idea, I just don't want on Richmond. The Paris rail transit system is easy to use, reasonably clean, and reasonably reliable when the operators aren't on strike.

To touch on the Aggie comment - I have a child at The University of Texas, a child at Texas A&M, and my youngest will be attending Harvard this fall. You figure it out.

First off, AO, welcome to the forum, some of the things you may notice that we have a tendency to cite our sources for our various perspectives to back them up with facts.

Another thing, if you read the post more carefully one of the posters simply gave you the initials of AG to shorten your name. The local aggie took offence to that effect. No matter how delusional he is, he's proud of being an AG.

Also, do not assume we're not on par with your particular demograpic. We have quite a few professionals on here which range from business owners in a variety of fields. I believe we have a couple of lawyers, Managers, and I think a few engineers (of various disciplines) on here as well.

There are also a couple of people like yourself who travel extensively and represent a few other countries has their origin. We have a considerable community who have friendly arguments from different perspectives and have different life experiences on many different levels. You should look into the other postings on here and that may give you some more perspective on our little group.

...Westpark around the Compaq Oasis of Love....

LOVE the name. You are a constant reminder as to why I should never drink while reading the posts on here.

Nmainguy - you so missed the point on the traffic back-ups caused by the minor road work going on @ Richmond & the 610 Loop. If this minor bit of road work backs up traffic from the loop all the way to Newcastle just try to imagine the effect of rail construction on that entire segment. Traffic will be backed up all the way to Greenway Plaza, to the east and all the way to Chimney Rock to the West, and for those East bound by the time they reach Newcastle they will be desparately searching for a path around the traffic. There are only three paths after the railroad tracks, Mid-lane - another neighborhood to cut through that is against Richmond Rail, Newcastle - through Afton Oaks, both of which will put the driver on Westheimer - or the street at the west end of Afton Oaks heading south to the feeder along 610 that will only return the driver to the intersection of the North 610 feeder and Richmond.

I drive along richmond almost every day and go to the galleria via different routes almost daily and I'm aware of the construction at 610, but I also know the congestion on Westhiemer is almost biblical on proportion. I'm guilty of cutting through A-oaks from time to time to avoid traffic (before the construction).

While I am not going to pretend the people in your neighborhood would use transit, face the fact that construction is going to be part of A-oak's future with the road needing some serious repair. The fact that they will probably also widening the road, you will probably lose your median anyway.

Seeing the medical center, one of the most congested parts of the city before and after the rail, traffic has improved considerably and quite a few on here might concur with that fact. After all is said and done, you won't have as much traffic going down richmond taking away the amount of busses!

I'm not one of the most eloquent members on here, but I have a great amount of experience with traffic on here and know most of the city of Houston as a whole better than alot of people know some of their own neighborhoods.

Believe me when I say that your arguements will hold very little water with me.

The only thing I ask with my fellow members (as well as you, OA) to be civil to each other until he gets "used" to how we operate on here. There has been many a-time in which we changed each other's views listening to arguments, I don't think this will be different as long as we maintain a civil conversation/debate.

[sevfiv]

I'm not one of the most eloquent members on here, but I have a great amount of experience with traffic on here and know most of the city of Houston as a whole better than alot of people know some of their own neighborhoods.

WOW - i just caught up on about 40370837 pages! sheesh!

ricco - your statements were right on key.

While I am not going to pretend the people in your neighborhood would use transit, face the fact that construction is going to be part of A-oak's future with the road needing some serious repair. The fact that they will probably also widening the road, you will probably lose your median anyway.

this is an important point - richmond can be quite awful as is. construction of light rail has been desperately needed in this city since passenger rail was dismantled by 1940.

the AO folks know that richmond is a prime artery, but you're right - how many of 'em would utilize public transport?

i would love to live in AO and have the prospect of living on a rail line. even if i were to become a little snotty (okay, okay, i know people who live there that aren't that way - who, btw, HATE richmond in its current state)

and do AO'ers really like buses thaty much?!

Edited July 19, 2006 by sevfiv

[TJones]

WOW - i just caught up on about 40370837 pages! sheesh!

ricco - your statements were right on key.

this is an important point - richmond can be quite awful as is. construction of light rail has been desperately needed in this city since passenger rail was dismantled by 1940.

the AO folks know that richmond is a prime artery, but you're right - how many of 'em would utilize public transport?

i would love to live in AO and have the prospect of living on a rail line. even if i were to become a little snotty (okay, okay, i know people who live there that aren't that way - who, btw, HATE richmond in its current state)

and do AO'ers really like buses thaty much?!

No Sev, and the truth is, they would use neither, and no one is gonna be getting on and off in their neighborhood also. Here is a solution, make no stops in the AO section, probably need at least one though. and a rule that no train whistles are to be blown going through the neighborhood.

Edited July 19, 2006 by TJones

[sevfiv]

No Sev, and the truth is, they would use neither, and no one is gonna be getting on and off in their neighborhood also. Here is a solution, make no stops in the AO section, probably need at least one though. and a rule that no train whistles are to be blown going through the neighborhood.

oh trust me, i know they wouldn't ride buses!

august 1st marks the implementation of the "quiet zone" - i am sure that could be extended in the residential portions (although yesterday a train horn sounded right next to me, and it sounded like the zoo choo-choo! ). of course we couldn't have the residents plummeting into the trains, either

Edited July 19, 2006 by sevfiv

[Highway6]

This morning's articlefor those who haven't read it yet...

http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/front/4056492.html

Afton Oaks resident Chris Seger said, however, that actual losses for homeowners could be greater, since many lawns extend onto easements owned by the city.

Metro spokesman George Smalley said the agency's use of such land would not be considered a taking of private property."

I can see why they are mad, but it also seems they have no right to be mad. If they have been borrowing strips of the city's land for all this time, they shouldn't have the right to complain when the city want it back.

Especially since those strips of land of a few feet could just as easily be gobbled up if Richmond is improved and widened.

[musicman]

Danax - Thanks it is nice to note that a few folks in this group were able to take my comments as they were intended. I agree that there will be a compromise - and I think the line will turn south on or before Weslayan and make it's way to Westpark. You are correct regarding ridership in the Afton Oaks area -

Danax ALWAYS remains calm, cool and collected. He gets into discussions with no animosity towards anyone. Unfortunately, not everyone here is that way. I laughed when someone mentioned about using facts. I think there was some confusion on fact vs. opinion.

[TJones]

Danax ALWAYS remains calm, cool and collected. He gets into discussions with no animosity towards anyone. Unfortunately, not everyone here is that way. I laughed when someone mentioned about using facts. I think there was some confusion on fact vs. opinion.

WTH are you talkin' 'bout Willis ?! I am sick and tired of everytime you come on here musicman, you got something nice to say about somebody. Geez, I can't stand people like you, because people like you just make the world a better place. <-----this is all is an argumentive voice. Think, the sergeant from Full Metal Jacket.

Edited July 19, 2006 by TJones

[musicman]

WTH are you talkin' 'bout Willis ?! I am sick and tired of everytime you come on here musicman, you got something nice to say about somebody. Geez, I can't stand people like you, because people like you just make the world a better place. <-----this is all is an argumentive voice. Think, the sergeant from Full Metal Jacket.

I knew it was an argumentative voice just have a little patience. When i read your post, I thought Ward Cleaver.

Eddie Haskell "Gee Mrs. Cleaver, what a lovely sweater. My mom has one just like it...but hers is imported. " LOL

Edited July 19, 2006 by musicman

[TJones]

I knew it was an argumentative voice just have a little patience. When i read your post, I thought Ward Cleaver.

Eddie Haskell "Gee Mrs. Cleaver, what a lovely sweater. My mom has one just like it...but hers is imported. " LOL

Good ol' Eddie, and his backhanded compliments. Speaking of LITB, does anyone know what the worst thing ever said on T.V. is ?

"Ward, I think you were a little hard on the Beaver last night."

Back on Topic: I don't think the turn is gonna be made at Weslayan, that just doesn't seem fiscally smart, nor does it sound logistcally smart.

Edited July 19, 2006 by TJones

[musicman]

Back on Topic: I don't think the turn is gonna be made at Weslayan, that just doesn't seem fiscally smart, nor does it sound logistcally smart.

It is PHYSICALLY and LOGISTICALLY impossible. Turning left from Weslayan to Richmond is a nightmare now. I usually cut thru the neighborhood to avoid this altogether. Now put a train in the intersection, it can only get worse.

Edited July 19, 2006 by musicman

[Furious Jam]

I totally understand the Afton Oaks perspective. The rail construction would delay their trips to Nordstrom's by several minutes. And what if it should rain on their Jaguars while they're stuck in traffic? Besides, it's not like they'll ever ride the thing, as they'd have to trade their wood grain, leather appointed luxury rides for sitting next to students, immigrants, and mass transit bohemians like us. Doesn't anyone understand their pain?

[IHB2]

ok, I haven't fully processed everything I learned at the meeting last night, but I will offer these few 1st impressions about the alignment options.

1. for all of you that commented on the feasibility of the UC line dropping south to Westpark at Buff Spdwy, Greenway Plaza (just west of Edloe), or Timmons (west side of the Lakewood Church of Perpetual Vigilance For Lazy Flight Attendants):

each of these 3 options will be elevated over 59. leaving aside for now the double cost/mile of an "El," the height of the train on the elevated track will be 34-40 feet above grade. this will require as sharp a turn as the train can make to cross over Westpark and return to grade just before Edloe (the Buff Spwy option) or Wesleyan (the GPlaza or Timmons option). the GPlaza option will require METRO buying land from GPlaza and the elevated line will run where no street exists w/a station in GPlaza.

so these options will result in an "El" running above Chili's/100% Taquito, etc strip center across from the big Kroger center and dropping at Edloe, OR running above and only 30 feet from the property lines of the Sunset Terrace neighborhood and dropping just before Wesleyan.

there will be no possibility of sound/safety walls promised these residents by Frank Wilson b/c of the elevation. LRT will pass ~every 3 minutes at least 18 hrs/day according to Wilson. riders will be looking down into the backyards of $5-700K homes and over homes several blocks away from the ROW. LRT noise, which is not really an issue for more than a block or 2 at-grade, will be an issue over many blocks south of the line, especially at night (yes there is already traffic noise from the fwy, but that's the case in AO as well).

the "quality of life" issue that AO residents harp on will be severely compromised in all of Sunset Terrace/Montclair (~400 homes) by an El 3-4 stories high.

please note that in over a year of attending METRO public meetings on the UC Line, no METRO or elected official ever mentioned in my presence the possibility of an El over a Westpark neighborhood.

2. all the options that cross to Westpark east of the UP track include a station directly on the se corner of Wesleyan and the ROW/Westpark. assuming train frequencies mentioned above, the certainty of all-way/no turn lights, and the necessity of stopping northbound Wesleyan traffic south of the ROW instead of currently Westpark (which also will delete the protected left turn to westbound Westpark), placing a station here w/passenger embark/debark time added to the all-stop time = traffic backup at peak hrs that will lock residents in their neighborhoods (as AOers like to say) and decrease access to Westpark and the Tollway. Also, basically the station will be located within feet of the backyards of the 1st few Sunset Terrace residential properties east of Wesleyan.

3. all the options that cross to Westpark east of the UP track include an ~12-1400 ft long overpass over the UP track. the grade for the overpass will begin ~6-800 ft east of the UP, which will raise the LRT above ~20 residences in the College Court neighborhood and the West U "chimney". since the ROW is already a few ft higher than all the residential properties between Edloe and the UP track, METRO essentially is subjecting this neighborhood of ~800 homes to an El just like Sunset Terrace. that's over 1000 private residences negatively affected by the 3 elevated crossing options.

so here's my question: why should Sunset Terrace/College Court/West U residents be subjected to a proposal that METRO would never dare to make for ANY residential neighborhood along Richmond?

IF the UC has to drop to Westpark (which I have opposed elsewhere on this thread for reasons of ridership and freeway/surface artery general mobility), why would METRO not make the transition at the UP track and avoid the negative effects of an "El" on the only residential neighborhoods along Westpark?

I would be especially interested to hear why AftonAG thinks METRO should destroy the property values, quality of life, and mobility of one affluent group rather than another.

Edited July 19, 2006 by IHB2

[Furious Jam]

ok, I haven't fully processed everything I learned at the meeting last night, but I will offer these few 1st impressions about the alignment options.

1. for all of you that commented on the feasibility of the UC line dropping south to Westpark at Buff Spdwy, Greenway Plaza (just west of Edloe), or Timmons (west side of the Lakewood Church of Perpetual Vigilance For Lazy Flight Attendants):

each of these 3 options will be elevated over 59. leaving aside for now the double cost/mile of an "El," the height of the train on the elevated track will be 34-40 feet above grade. this will require as sharp a turn as the train can make to cross over Westpark and return to grade just before Edloe (the Buff Spwy option) or Wesleyan (the GPlaza or Timmons option). the GPlaza option will require METRO buying land from GPlaza and the elevated line will run where no street exists w/a station in GPlaza.

so these options will result in an "El" running above Chili's/100% Taquito, etc strip center across from the big Kroger center and dropping at Edloe, OR running above and only 30 feet from the property lines of the Sunset Terrace neighborhood and dropping just before Wesleyan.

there will be no possibility of sound/safety walls promised these residents by Frank Wilson b/c of the elevation. LRT will pass ~every 3 minutes at least 18 hrs/day according to Wilson. riders will be looking down into the backyards of $5-700K homes and over homes several blocks away from the ROW. LRT noise, which is not really an issue for more than a block or 2 at-grade, will be an issue over many blocks south of the line, especially at night (yes there is already traffic noise from the fwy, but that's the case in AO as well).

the "quality of life" issue that AO residents harp on will be severely compromised in all of Sunset Terrace/Montclair (~400 homes) by an El 3-4 stories high.

please note that in over a year of attending METRO public meetings on the UC Line, no METRO or elected official ever mentioned in my presence the possibility of an El over a Westpark neighborhood.

2. all the options that cross to Westpark east of the UP track include a station directly on the se corner of Wesleyan and the ROW/Westpark. assuming train frequencies mentioned above, the certainty of all-way/no turn lights, and the necessity of stopping northbound Wesleyan traffic south of the ROW instead of currently Westpark (which also will delete the protected left turn to westbound Westpark), placing a station here w/passenger embark/debark time added to the all-stop time = traffic backup at peak hrs that will lock residents in their neighborhoods (as AOers like to say) and decrease access to Westpark and the Tollway. Also, basically the station will be located within feet of the backyards of the 1st few Sunset Terrace residential properties east of Wesleyan.

3. all the options that cross to Westpark east of the UP track include an ~12-1400 ft long overpass over the UP track. the grade for the overpass will begin ~6-800 ft east of the UP, which will raise the LRT above ~20 residences in the College Court neighborhood and the West U "chimney". since the ROW is already a few ft higher than all the residential properties between Edloe and the UP track, METRO essentially is subjecting this neighborhood of ~800 homes to an El just like Sunset Terrace. that's over 1000 private residences negatively affected by the 3 elevated crossing options.

so here's my question: why should Sunset Terrace/College Court/West U residents be subjected to a proposal that METRO would never dare to make for ANY residential neighborhood along Richmond?

IF the UC has to drop to Westpark (which I have opposed elsewhere on this thread for reasons of ridership and freeway/surface artery general mobility), why would METRO not make the transition at the UP track and avoid the negative effects of an "El" on the only residential neighborhoods along Westpark?

I would be especially interested to hear why AftonAG thinks METRO should destroy the property values, quality of life, and mobility of one affluent group rather than another.

Excellent observations.

You'd like to think that Metro is employing great engineers and designers who are coming up with something that (1) works well and (2) serves the the interests of the city as a whole, then sticking to that plan. But more and more, it looks like Metro is responding ad hoc to whatever is thrown in its path - taking the path of least resistance just to get it over with. That is no way to plan vital infrastructure that will shape this city for at least a century.

I wonder if you'd be getting this fight from AO if Metro just wanted to widen and improve Richmond, with no rail at all - the same amount of construction, but only to benefit drivers. I think AO is fighting this because they have no use for public transportation.

Edited July 19, 2006 by Furious Jam

[Pumapayam]

I would be especially interested to hear why AftonAG thinks METRO should destroy the property values, quality of life, and mobility of one affluent group rather than another.

So, in other words we can't please everyone. It depends on which neighborhood has more clout. All these overpasses over 59 would escalate the cost.

And on a side note, this whole BRT in uptown, I don't know why they want to go through the pain of shutting the line down AGAIN in a few years when ridership increases, I hate dumb people. It should be busy enough to qualify for light rail. Quote below from the Chronicle.

Current plans call for the Uptown Line to use train-like buses on a guideway, but Wilson said light rail might be substituted "if we can afford it."

Edited July 19, 2006 by Pumapayam

[bachanon]

ok, I haven't fully processed everything I learned at the meeting last night, but I will offer these few 1st impressions about the alignment options.

1. for all of you that commented on the feasibility of the UC line dropping south to Westpark at Buff Spdwy, Greenway Plaza (just west of Edloe), or Timmons (west side of the Lakewood Church of Perpetual Vigilance For Lazy Flight Attendants):

each of these 3 options will be elevated over 59. leaving aside for now the double cost/mile of an "El," the height of the train on the elevated track will be 34-40 feet above grade. this will require as sharp a turn as the train can make to cross over Westpark and return to grade just before Edloe (the Buff Spwy option) or Wesleyan (the GPlaza or Timmons option). the GPlaza option will require METRO buying land from GPlaza and the elevated line will run where no street exists w/a station in GPlaza.

so these options will result in an "El" running above Chili's/100% Taquito, etc strip center across from the big Kroger center and dropping at Edloe, OR running above and only 30 feet from the property lines of the Sunset Terrace neighborhood and dropping just before Wesleyan.

there will be no possibility of sound/safety walls promised these residents by Frank Wilson b/c of the elevation. LRT will pass ~every 3 minutes at least 18 hrs/day according to Wilson. riders will be looking down into the backyards of $5-700K homes and over homes several blocks away from the ROW. LRT noise, which is not really an issue for more than a block or 2 at-grade, will be an issue over many blocks south of the line, especially at night (yes there is already traffic noise from the fwy, but that's the case in AO as well).

the "quality of life" issue that AO residents harp on will be severely compromised in all of Sunset Terrace/Montclair (~400 homes) by an El 3-4 stories high.

please note that in over a year of attending METRO public meetings on the UC Line, no METRO or elected official ever mentioned in my presence the possibility of an El over a Westpark neighborhood.

2. all the options that cross to Westpark east of the UP track include a station directly on the se corner of Wesleyan and the ROW/Westpark. assuming train frequencies mentioned above, the certainty of all-way/no turn lights, and the necessity of stopping northbound Wesleyan traffic south of the ROW instead of currently Westpark (which also will delete the protected left turn to westbound Westpark), placing a station here w/passenger embark/debark time added to the all-stop time = traffic backup at peak hrs that will lock residents in their neighborhoods (as AOers like to say) and decrease access to Westpark and the Tollway. Also, basically the station will be located within feet of the backyards of the 1st few Sunset Terrace residential properties east of Wesleyan.

3. all the options that cross to Westpark east of the UP track include an ~12-1400 ft long overpass over the UP track. the grade for the overpass will begin ~6-800 ft east of the UP, which will raise the LRT above ~20 residences in the College Court neighborhood and the West U "chimney". since the ROW is already a few ft higher than all the residential properties between Edloe and the UP track, METRO essentially is subjecting this neighborhood of ~800 homes to an El just like Sunset Terrace. that's over 1000 private residences negatively affected by the 3 elevated crossing options.

so here's my question: why should Sunset Terrace/College Court/West U residents be subjected to a proposal that METRO would never dare to make for ANY residential neighborhood along Richmond?

IF the UC has to drop to Westpark (which I have opposed elsewhere on this thread for reasons of ridership and freeway/surface artery general mobility), why would METRO not make the transition at the UP track and avoid the negative effects of an "El" on the only residential neighborhoods along Westpark?

I would be especially interested to hear why AftonAG thinks METRO should destroy the property values, quality of life, and mobility of one affluent group rather than another.

if the quality of life/property value issues are less of a burden to afton oaks than the other neighborhoods mentioned by IHB2; then, is it not true, that a direct line down richmond becomes the lesser of two evils?

[Pumapayam]

Another Chronicle artile with a great quote!

It is noteworthy when an elected official represents the wishes of his or her constituents.

Unfortunately, such officials are as rare and endangered as the spotted owl.

Congressman John Culberson's position on the Metropolitan Transit Authority's plans for rail along Richmond Avenue is both rare and refreshing.

CHRONICLE