Red Light Cameras

[skwatra]

i've sat at the wheeler-calhoun intersection near UH for 10 minutes once before running it (slowly with no traffic coming). now i only wait 5 minutes and go...

but i like the cameras, i've been hit downtown by someone running a blatant red, and i probably go though some yellows i shouldn't, and plan on changing my bad habits.

[nmainguy]

Good for you, nmainguy, good for you.

If you are looking for a safe one to run, McGowen is it.

And I even had a legal professor tell me it's OK to do this. The lights have to be reasonalbe. Sit at McGowen at Louisana for 10 minutes on a mis-timed light, and you might change your tune.

You can see the traffic coming (mostly not coming) for a good ways away. They are all stuck at the red light on Elgin.

Good for me??? You either didn't read my reply or you are as callous as some of your posts portray you as.

[WesternGulf]

Good for me??? You either didn't read my reply or you are as callous as some of your posts portray you as.

The latter.

[sevfiv]

i've sat at the wheeler-calhoun intersection near UH for 10 minutes

that one is terrible (turning northbound onto calhoun)...i had to go straight then make a u-turn and turn right

[Gary]

Hey Red, do you have any idea how the this traffic ticket protocol will work? Will we have the ability to fight the tickets?

[RedScare]

As I understand it, once a violator is photographed, a civil citation would be mailed to the owner of the vehicle. I am sure that the penalty will be payable to the Municipal Court. Parking ticket appeals go to an administrative hearing. If you are dissatisfied with the outcome, you can appeal to Municipal Court.

I suspect that these citations will go straight to Municipal Court if you want to fight it. You would fight it the same way you do any ticket, except instead of proving it wasn't you, you must prove that it wasn't your CAR, or that you do not own the car. You might also proceed under the "Midtown Coog Defense", by showing that the light sequence is so short that you could not safely stop.

Since it is a civil offense, instead of criminal, the city does not have to prove the case "beyond a reasonable doubt", but the easier civil standard of "preponderance of the evidence". This means it is easier for you to lose.

[N Judah]

In Turkey, they don't even really stop at stop lights if no one is around. In California, the same thing, except they maintain the facade of lawfulness by pretending to slow down.

If no one's coming, just go. It's not hard except when you make it so. But if you kill someone, at least pull over otherwise it's a hit and run.

[travelguy_73]

Let me ask you though, is it NOT a law being broken if a Cop doesn't SEE you doing it ? The Mayor is thinking forward, try to govern yourself by NOT breaking any traffic laws. I bet your perspective would change once you get "T-Boned" in an intersection by someone running a redlight.

TJ, I understand your position on this, and as someone who was a passenger in a car that was t-boned in Chicago a couple of years ago, I am definitely sensitive to the pitfalls of running red lights.

But that's not my issue, though there seems to be enough evidence that accidents in fact aren't going down in locations with cameras (http://www.thenewspaper.com/news/04/430.asp , espec. interesting is the last link on the page from former Rep. Dick Armey)

My issue is that of accountability, which is something I think we can all agree is a concern with every municipality. Similar to radar/laser guns, there is no accountability on just how accurate the devices are. While the camera companies in theory have an interest in protecting their good name, they also have an interest in maintaining their cash flow. You have tickets being issued, usually without adequate review (how do we know they are reviewed for accuracy? Because HPD says they will be?). They are being sent to motorists who may or may not be guilty. It is easier just to pay and, "heck, it is only $75" (the first time). It isn't like we all get together to compare notes and realize that intersection XY's camera is defective and issues tickets to every 10th motorist.

And what happens when you get a ticket for a car that isn't yours any longer? Texas dealers are notorious for not promptly changing title on a car that has been traded in. In this case, you have a ticket in hand for a car you don't own. There's a decent chance you will get out of having to pay the fine, but only after taking time off and going down to Lubbock Street to protest it.

But perhaps so many lives will be saved that society says the hassles are worth it. If that is the case, so be it, but we need to at least be aware that these cameras are about as far from foolproof as you can get.

ETA: What about yellow lights that are too-short in duration? Emergency manuveurs that mean we enter the intersection as the light is turning red? What about making a right turn on red?

[Montrose1100]

I wish they would put those Red Light Cameras at Allen Parkway @ Waugh. So Many people run the red lights, so many accidents!

[TJones]

I assure you, being a Texas Dealer myself, I will tell you that I have had wholesalers buy cars (trade-ins) and drive through tollbooths illegally, or the person they have in turn, sold the car to do this. Previous owners get the letters with the pics. I in turn take the heat, I then find out who bought the car from me. I check the record to find out when in fact the car was sold, and if it concurs before or after the date it was traded-in, or sold. You don't have to take time off to go downtown to protest the ticket, A respectable dealer will help you take care of it, and all it takes is a couple of phone calls. You call the dealer, fax him your letter, The dealer WILL know how to handle it.

[Jeebus]

..for some reason, the government is surveiling vegans ( link ). Okay, so they think meat is evil. So what?

Maybe they (government officials who authorized these vegan wiretaps) have watched 12 Monkeys one too many times.

I have never intentionally run any redlight because I have suffered the consequences of people like you who clearly have no regard for the signals. It only takes one careless driver to alter the lives of others forever.

I'm sure this is also why you've NEVER drank and then drove your entire live either, right?

[MidtownCoog]

What concerns me is the accuracy of these devices. It

[MiDTOWNeR]

I am surprised the fine will only be $75.

I paid $281 back in 98 or 99 in California for having my pic taken at an intersection.

[Montrose1100]

I assure you, being a Texas Dealer myself, I will tell you that I have had wholesalers buy cars (trade-ins) and drive through tollbooths illegally, or the person they have in turn, sold the car to do this. Previous owners get the letters with the pics. I in turn take the heat, I then find out who bought the car from me. I check the record to find out when in fact the car was sold, and if it concurs before or after the date it was traded-in, or sold. You don't have to take time off to go downtown to protest the ticket, A respectable dealer will help you take care of it, and all it takes is a couple of phone calls. You call the dealer, fax him your letter, The dealer WILL know how to handle it.

Isn't that why you should get new plates when you buy a used car?

[TJones]

Isn't that why you should get new plates when you buy a used car?

Texas law states the plates go with the car not the driver. The new owner does have the option of vanity plates or new plates, it only costs a few dollars, and the dealer should be happy to accomodate you.

[dbigtex56]

Sit at McGowen at Louisana for 10 minutes on a mis-timed light, and you might change your tune.

10 minutes?

If the light consistantly takes a long time to change, report it to 311.

[escapee]

I'm amazed at the degree of whining with regards to traffic. If the lights on McGowan are out of sync, try to get them changed or USE ANOTHER STREET! God, the ego to intentionally run lights on a regular basis! To elevate yourself so that your convenience is more important than others' safety is just beyond me. I'm glad I hardly ever go downtown during the day. Idiots like this ..........heaven help us all.

[MidtownCoog]

USE ANOTHER STREET

What a doofus. 1/2 of the streets that cross Midtown are dead-ends. You have Webster, Elgin or McGowen.

Better watch out or I"ll run you over.

[travelguy_73]

I'm amazed at the degree of whining with regards to traffic. If the lights on McGowan are out of sync, try to get them changed or USE ANOTHER STREET! God, the ego to intentionally run lights on a regular basis! To elevate yourself so that your convenience is more important than others' safety is just beyond me. I'm glad I hardly ever go downtown during the day. Idiots like this ..........heaven help us all.

In theory your proposal works, but the reality is the cross-town streets in midtown either don't connect any longer (only Gray, McGowen, Elgin I think) or, if they do, suffer the same problem. I don't think that anyone is seriously defending their right to run red lights, but simply pointing out the obvious: Correct signal lights, with adequate timing and yellow light duration, will probably go further to reduce the number of people who run red lights than will red light cameras.

I probably have a frequent-caller log with 311 about problem signal lights. They fix them, and then weeks later they are messed up again. After a while, you just give up!

[MiDTOWNeR]

Correct signal lights, with adequate timing and yellow light duration, will probably go further to reduce the number of people who run red lights than will red light cameras.

And have the city miss out on the income that will be pouring in? The timing issues will most likely not be going away any time soon. =(

[CE_ugh]

What a doofus. 1/2 of the streets that cross Midtown are dead-ends. You have Webster, Elgin or McGowen.

Better watch out or I"ll run you over.

Tuam

[nmainguy]

What a doofus. 1/2 of the streets that cross Midtown are dead-ends. You have Webster, Elgin or McGowen.

Better watch out or I"ll run you over.

And Pierce.

And Gray.

And Alabama.

And Wheeler.

All depending on how/where/what you define Midtown as.

Maybe MidtownCoog should just try them all...he's bound to cause the severe injury and/or death of someone just so his or her adolescent needs are met.

[VelvetJ]

In theory your proposal works, but the reality is the cross-town streets in midtown either don't connect any longer (only Gray, McGowen, Elgin I think) or, if they do, suffer the same problem. I don't think that anyone is seriously defending their right to run red lights, but simply pointing out the obvious: Correct signal lights, with adequate timing and yellow light duration, will probably go further to reduce the number of people who run red lights than will red light cameras.

I probably have a frequent-caller log with 311 about problem signal lights. They fix them, and then weeks later they are messed up again. After a while, you just give up!

I completely agree with the above statement. I think timing of the signal lights would be much more effective.

I would also like to add another angle to this. IMO, many of Houston streets seem to naturally breed speed because of the design, including Milam, Louisiana, and Travis. We are talking about a situation where drivers are exiting a freeway onto wide, multi-laned, smooth, one-way, unobstructed (in terms of curves, or hills), straight-forward roads into and out of a business district. This may sound crazy to many but to a degree I almost expect red light runners on those streets.

Take the newly re-done streets of midtown. It almost seems like there is a freeway going through that neighborhood. Wide roads clearly took priority over wide sidewalks for the people that live there.We are in a city where in it's current form, as a whole, was designed around the automobile. In other words, the car took priority even over human beings. Louisiana street through Midtown is as wide as some freeways in some smaller cities I have been to. We design our streets like this and stand in amazement at the agressiveness of the drivers on them. To me, it's like lighting the fuse, then getting mad at the dynamite.

Like Travelguy stated, I don't think anyone is trying to defend someone's right to run redlights, it's just I think it's not enough to simply install cameras and marvel at the amount of red light runners, while counting the cash from the tickets collected. We have to ask ourselves some tough questions including does the city have a hand in creating situations where running red lights can occur so easily? I believe the forumer Escapee said, "to elevate yourself so that your convenience is more important than others' safety is just beyond me". Well Mr./Ms. Escapee, I feel the same way toward the city for allowing those streets to be designed in such a way where convenience took presidence over safety and pedestrians.

I think like the Safe Clear Program, this is another classic example of one of my favorites sayings which says, "good intentions does not equate to being correct".

[nmainguy]

...does the city have a hand in creating situations where running red lights can occur so easily? I believe the forumer Escapee said, "to elevate yourself so that your convenience is more important than others' safety is just beyond me". Well Mr./Ms. Escapee, I feel the same way toward the city for allowing those streets to be designed in such a way where convenience took presidence over safety and pedestrians.

The city makes it easy for you to run red lights easier? What are you? 9 years old? The light is red. The law says stop and wait until it turns green. It does not say: "Gee, the city re-did all these streets so you could have a more efficient and smoother drive on better streets in less time and with less wear and tear on your cars so ignore me so you go on your selfish way that much faster." So Velvet, if you or MidtownCoog happen to kill someone's family member in the process, just blame it on them.

[Jeebus]

So Velvet, if you or MidtownCoog happen to kill someone's family member in the process, just blame it on them.

Hey, this logic seems to work for Metro. I've yet to hear of one of their bus drivers who've run a red light and kill a pedestrian get charged with manslaughter.

[travelguy_73]

The city makes it easy for you to run red lights easier? What are you? 9 years old? The light is red. The law says stop and wait until it turns green. It does not say: "Gee, the city re-did all these streets so you could have a more efficient and smoother drive on better streets in less time and with less wear and tear on your cars so ignore me so you go on your selfish way that much faster." So Velvet, if you or MidtownCoog happen to kill someone's family member in the process, just blame it on them.

(I'm only focusing on downtown/midtown here)

Create streets with more lanes than are probably necessary

+long sections of green lights (or no lights in the case of Midtown)

+Houston drivers naturally inclined to drive as quickly as possible at all times

=people who drive too quickly for the yellow lights intended to warn them to stop

In general, Houstonians are speeders; we have been conditioned over the years to drive as quickly as possible in the straights to make up for the time we sit, bridled by construction and traffic. Again, I don't think anyone is defending their/our right to speed and, unfortunately, run red lights. But I totally see Velvet's point. I know I drive considerably slower in downtown than I do Midtown, probably a good 10-15 mph slower. The parked cars at the curbs, the pedestrians, the buses, etc., all generally have a calming effect on speed. Does that mean the city/Metro should just let streets go to hell (ala, Airline Dr inside 610?)? Let's not be extreme. But let's at least recognize that this problem wasn't created overnight and there are deeper, physchological changes that need to happen before it will go away.

[MiDTOWNeR]

Many folks who frequently take the Dallas/Pierce st exit off the 45 to reach midtown are now conditioned(trained) to slow down to 40mph on the uphill climb over Dallas street so to not get tagged by the POEleece on the downhill slope of that bridge as you approach midtown.

The same would happen if the lights through midtown were better timed. Many...not all...never ALL...would learn that you could get the most bang for your buck by cruising at a specific speed to hit the most green lights. IF the lights were timed properly, one could exit the spur on louisiana and cruise all the way into downtown or stop at only one light.

On the other hand. With red light cameras installed, the poorly timed lights will be a cash cow as motorists run the red lights....Till folks figure out where the cameras are.

[travelguy_73]

The same would happen if the lights through midtown were better timed. Many...not all...never ALL...would learn that you could get the most bang for your buck by cruising at a specific speed to hit the most green lights. IF the lights were timed properly, one could exit the spur on louisiana and cruise all the way into downtown or stop at only one light.

I believe that the eventual goal in downtown/midtown is to adjust the light cycles to make this possible. They have to wait until all the old traffic signals have been replaced, first. Of course crossing Main Street will probably always be an exception now since the rail gets priority.

Actually, I believe they adjusted midtown to work this way when Mayor White had all the lights retimed, but in some cases there are so many blocks between signal lights that you have no idea what speed you should be traveling (think it's 20-22mph).

[N Judah]

People drive faster along one-way streets because they tend to get into that drag-racing mentality. So change the midtown streets to be all two-way.

[Subdude]

Create streets with more lanes than are probably necessary

+long sections of green lights (or no lights in the case of Midtown)

+Houston drivers naturally inclined to drive as quickly as possible at all times

=people who drive too quickly for the yellow lights intended to warn them to stop

Good point. I think part of the problem for development in Midtown is that the streets are too wide and seem to encourage relatively fast driving. Some of this occured during the 1960s when the area was basically reconfigured to serve as a connection between downtown and 59. The best thing that could happen for quality residential development in Midtown would be to narrow the streets, especially by adding diagonal parking on the side wherever possible. That would have the added bonus of cutting demand for surface lots.