Red Light Cameras

[ricco67]

I think the cameras are a total necessity. From driving at the various intersections with cameras on them, Traffic seems to move a bit more smoothly, albeit cautiously as the time for the yellow light comes closer.

I'm all for the camera system, I'm also all for the Metro Camera system and the city wide CCTV they're putting together. I think the Foiled London Bombing is a good case for it, as well as the additional crime being caught in the act there as well.

[musicman]

O oh....get ready for this...

Among many changes that affect how the Houston Police Department spends revenue and monitors crashes, the new ordinance authorizes officers to issue camera citations to motorists who turn without stopping at a red light, a violation of state law.

"In the past, there has been no violation for that," said Joseph Fenninger, the Houston Police Department's chief financial officer. "There will be from this point forward."

full article

[CDeb]

Interesting note from the article sidebar:

Monthly citations have declined from a height of 15,293 in April, when only 40 intersections were monitored, to 14,201 in May and 13,512 in June.

Declining citations is a positive indicator that you have a properly administrated photo enforcement program.

Edited August 22, 2007 by CDeb

[musicman]

Declining citations is a positive indicator that you have a properly administrated photo enforcement program.

you would think lengthening the yellow light cycle would be a cheaper way to address the "public safety" issue. it would cost nothing. or is it really all about revenue?

Edited August 22, 2007 by musicman

[MidtownCoog]

A traffic camera never has, and never will, save a life.

But it may take a good picture of blood running red on the roadway.

[TJones]

O oh....get ready for this...

Among many changes that affect how the Houston Police Department spends revenue and monitors crashes, the new ordinance authorizes officers to issue camera citations to motorists who turn without stopping at a red light, a violation of state law.

"In the past, there has been no violation for that," said Joseph Fenninger, the Houston Police Department's chief financial officer. "There will be from this point forward."

full article

Ummmm.......it has always been the law to STOP before making a right on red. We are actually one of the few states where it is legal to make a right on red, but you still have to STOP before turning. So, this situation still falls under the running of a RED light .

[CDeb]

you would think lengthening the yellow light cycle would be a cheaper way to address the "public safety" issue. it would cost nothing. or is it really all about revenue?

In the short term, yes, lengthening the yellow could help, especially if it isn't long enough for the speed of the roadway.

However, in the long term, drivers will get used to using the longer yellow and will be just as apt to run a red light as they were before.

Regardless, it would cost something to lengthen the yellow. A technician has to visit the intersection and adjust the yellow time in the controller.

Here's an interesting research abstract from the Insurance Institute for Highway Safety:

Many drivers routinely run red lights, placing themselves and other road users at risk for crashes and serious injuries. Two principal methods used to reduce red light running involve lengthening the duration of yellow change intervals and automated red light enforcement. The present study evaluated the incremental effects on red light running of first lengthening yellow signal timing, followed by the introduction of red light cameras. At six approaches to two intersections in Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, yellow change intervals were increased by about 1 second, followed several months later by red light camera enforcement. The number of red light violations was monitored before changes were implemented, several weeks after yellow timing changes were made, and about 1 year after commencement of red light camera enforcement. Similar observations were conducted at three comparison intersections in a neighboring state where red light cameras were not used and yellow timing remained constant. Results showed that yellow timing changes reduced red light violations by 36%. The addition or red light camera enforcement further reduced red light violations by 96% beyond levels achieved by the longer yellow timing. This study shows that the provisions of adequate yellow signal timing reduces red light running, but longer yellow timing alone does not eliminate the need for better enforcement, which can be provided effectively by red light cameras.

Full doc here: http://www.iihs.org/research/topics/pdf/penn_rlc.pdf

From Transportation Research Board (full doc not on web):

Red Light Cameras (RLCs) have been used in a number of US cities to yield a demonstrable reduction in red light violations; however, evaluating their impact on safety (crashes) has been relatively more difficult. Accurately estimating the safety impacts of RLCs is challenging for several reasons. First, many safety related factors are uncontrolled and/or confounded during the periods of observation. Second, "spillover" effects caused by drivers reacting to non RLC equipped intersections and approaches can make the selection of comparison sites difficult. Third, sites selected for RLC installation may not be randomly selected, and as a result may suffer from the regression to the mean bias. Finally, crash severity and resulting costs need to be considered to fully understand the safety impacts of RLCs. Recognizing these challenges; a study was conducted to estimate the safety impacts of RLCs on traffic crashes at signalized intersections in the cities of Phoenix and Scottsdale, Arizona. Twenty-four RLC equipped intersections in both cities are examined in detail and conclusions drawn. Four different evaluation methodologies were employed to cope with the technical challenges that are described in this paper and to assess the sensitivity of results to analytical assumptions. The evaluation results indicate that both Phoenix and Scottsdale are operating successful installations of RLCs; however, the variability in RLC effectiveness within jurisdictions is larger in Phoenix. Consistent with findings in other regions, in general angle crashes and left-turn crashes are reduced, while rear-end crashes increase as a result of RLCs.

and

One major cause of accidents at signalized intersections is vehicles running red lights. To discourage red light running (RLR), a number of authorities have installed red light camera (RLC) systems on the approaches to these signalized intersections. There have been indications from several studies that RLCs have been effective in curbing RLR; this leads to potential reduction in right-angle collisions. However, there are also concerns over a possible increase in rear-end collisions. This paper investigates the effect of RLCs on accident risks at signalized intersections for both right-angle collisions and rear-end collisions. A binary logit model was preliminarily developed to examine how the stopping

Edited August 22, 2007 by CDeb

[musicman]

Ummmm.......it has always been the law to STOP before making a right on red. We are actually one of the few states where it is legal to make a right on red, but you still have to STOP before turning. So, this situation still falls under the running of a RED light .

TJ it's all about the GREEN

Edited August 22, 2007 by musicman

[TJones]

TJ it's all about the GREEN

Of course, digging into lawbreakers pocketbooks is the only way to get their attention and if those that want to continue to break the law, and think that just because a cop isn't there to catch them, that they aren't hurtin anybody, can use THEIR GREEN to pay for the new cameras going up. Then perhaps after they are tired of smiling for the camera, they will get a clue, and stop playing Russian roulette with their car. I guarantee if you or Midtown got t-boned just once by somebody as oblivious as you two are to the redlights, and hurt a family member of yours sitting in the passenger seat where you just got t-boned, you guys would change your thinking. You guys go ahead and keep running those redlights though, the city needs the easy money.

Edited August 22, 2007 by TJones

[CDeb]

A traffic camera never has, and never will, save a life.

Of course, it cannot be proven that any particular life has been saved.

But it has been demonstrably shown that injury crashes have been reduced as intersections where they have been installed.

If you are not a habitual red light runner, how can you have a problem with that??

[MidtownCoog]

A camera never has, and never will, prevent someone from getting T-boned.But it may get good picture of the boning.And 99% of the fools who run red lights aren't smart enough to know where the cameras are. They often don't even realize they are running one they are so distracted with everything else.

[CDeb]

A camera never has, and never will, prevent someone from getting T-boned.

Again, it has been shown that right-angle collisions greatly decrease after cameras have been installed.

[MidtownCoog]

Are these intersections marked "Red Light Camera Enforement Zone"?

[TJones]

Are these intersections marked "Red Light Camera Enforement Zone"?

Using your logic though Coog, that wouldn't matter either, I think a sign couldn't hurt though. We can use money from the redlight runners to print them up.

I would wager that over 50% of the people that run redlights KNOW they are running them, otherwise how do you explain the stomping of the gas pedal as they jet through the intersection ?

[musicman]

Of course, digging into lawbreakers pocketbooks is the only way to get their attention and if those that want to continue to break the law, and think that just because a cop isn't there to catch them, that they aren't hurtin anybody, can use THEIR GREEN to pay for the new cameras going up. Then perhaps after they are tired of smiling for the camera, they will get a clue, and stop playing Russian roulette with their car. I guarantee if you or Midtown got t-boned just once by somebody as oblivious as you two are to the redlights, and hurt a family member of yours sitting in the passenger seat where you just got t-boned, you guys would change your thinking. You guys go ahead and keep running those redlights though, the city needs the easy money.

i am a law breaker, everyday i get on the freeway. i easily go 70. i have received tickets numerous times yet i still speed. i don't run red lights as often but i will admit i have done it occasionally. Are you a law breaker?

[musicman]

Again, it has been shown that right-angle collisions greatly decrease after cameras have been installed.

Mesa, Arizona

When yellow times are lengthened at intersections, red light entries plunge. Mesa,

Arizona found a 73 percent drop in citations after the yellow light was extended.

Mesa increased the left-turn yellow arrow duration to four seconds, from three

seconds, on Nov. 14, after complaints from drivers who felt the time was too short

to safely complete their turns. The change was made at 30 intersections with dual

left-turn lanes and left-turn arrows. In November, the city issued 1,639 left-turn

arrow citations at the six intersections patrolled by cameras. In December, the

month after the change, the number fell to 716. In October, the month prior to the

change, Mesa issued 2,645 citations. (Arizona Republic, February 6, 2001.)

To most, this decrease in red-light running violations would be most welcome news. But

it was not welcome news to the city of Mesa. That

[CDeb]

Mesa, Arizona

When yellow times are lengthened at intersections, red light entries plunge. Mesa,

Arizona found a 73 percent drop in citations after the yellow light was extended.

Mesa increased the left-turn yellow arrow duration to four seconds, from three

seconds, on Nov. 14, after complaints from drivers who felt the time was too short

to safely complete their turns. The change was made at 30 intersections with dual

left-turn lanes and left-turn arrows. In November, the city issued 1,639 left-turn

arrow citations at the six intersections patrolled by cameras. In December, the

month after the change, the number fell to 716. In October, the month prior to the

change, Mesa issued 2,645 citations. (Arizona Republic, February 6, 2001.)

To most, this decrease in red-light running violations would be most welcome news. But

it was not welcome news to the city of Mesa. That

[MidtownCoog]

I drive downtown every day of the week. I must be missing all these red light runners.

But the Mesa article brings up an excellent point. The yellow light at San Jacinto and Webster may stay yellow for half a second. It's basically green to red.

Until the lights are reliable, there should be no cash cameras. Make them warnings only.

Mayor White's feel good "traffic light synchronization" plan was good at first. Anyone who drives downtown like I do can tell you, that program has been neglected.

The Mayor of Mobility! That's was pretty good for one campaign. Lately he's just been a nowhere man running interference between the DA Chuck Rosenthal and the disgraced Mayor Pro Tem Carol Alvarado.

[TJones]

i am a law breaker, everyday i get on the freeway. i easily go 70. i have received tickets numerous times yet i still speed. i don't run red lights as often but i will admit i have done it occasionally. Are you a law breaker?

If I get busted, I get busted. I got busted the day before yesterday, for no registration (expired). I have already taken care of it. I was ridin "DIRTY". On top of that, the cop gave me a ticket for not changing the address on my license. I have since resolved BOTH issues. I deserved BOTH tickets though. I DO try to watch my speed in town, if they install cameras and bust me doing 80 or 90 in a 65, do you think I deserve it ? Sure I do, if I know there are cameras that are gonna bust me, I will undoubtedly watch my speed. Everytime you've gotten pulled over for speeding, were you thinking to yourself, "This cop should be somewhere else catching REAL criminals."

Musicman, think about this. If someone knocked you over the head and rapes you and there is no cop around to catch the perp. is the offender not guilty of the crime, or would you be thankful that there is a camera around that captured the perp's image ? We'll blur the tape to protect the your identity of course.

That is the whole point of the cameras, instead of cops having to babysit the redlight runners now, they have a digital nanny. The cops can now go catch the guy who is gonna knock you over the head later.

[musicman]

For the record, I am against the installation of red-light cameras as a revenue source, I only favor them as a safety measure. I am especially against adjusting the yellow times of the signal as a function of revenue collected from automated enforcement. Such actions can have a large negative impact on safety.

Like I said, increasing the yellow time can work, especially when they were too short to begin with. That could have been the case here. I would be interested in the long-term results.

The changes in the yellow signal timing regulations have resulted in the inadequate yellow times. And these inadequate yellow times are the likely cause of almost 80 percent of red light entries, as discussed above. If we look closely at one of the intersections Retting studied, the signal at Columbia Pike at Greenbrier in Arlington, Virginia, we find that it has a measured yellow time of 4.0 seconds. This location was the second site

studied in his

Edited August 22, 2007 by musicman

[musicman]

Musicman, think about this. If someone knocked you over the head and rapes you and there is no cop around to catch the perp. is the offender not guilty of the crime, or would you be thankful that there is a camera around that captured the perp's image ? We'll blur the tape to protect the your identity of course.

TJ if someone knocks me over the head and rapes me while i'm driving, then YES i would be grateful for the red light camera. when is the last time a scenario like this was on the news? Can you find one instance of this?

EDIT: maybe it would have helped a HAIF member (whose name escapes me) in the convertible on Main in front of the bus station who experienced someone urinating on/in his car.

Edited August 22, 2007 by musicman

[MidtownCoog]

Expecting cameras to keep people from running red lights is like expecting laws to prevent acts of murder.

[musicman]

Everytime you've gotten pulled over for speeding, were you thinking to yourself, "This cop should be somewhere else catching REAL criminals."

No i wasn't but i'm sure some FOUR letter words were involved.

[CDeb]

Expecting cameras to keep people from running red lights is like expecting laws to prevent acts of murder.

Poor analogy.

There is already a law that prevents red light running.

A camera is not a law, it is a method of enforcement. Adding them increases your level of enforcement, just like adding police officers.

A more appropriate statement would be: "Expecting cameras to keep people from running red lights is like expecting additional police officers to prevent acts of murder."

And I don't agree with the premise that adding more police officers to areas with high murder rates would have no effect on the acts of murder in the area.

[TJones]

TJ if someone knocks me over the head and rapes me while i'm driving, then YES i would be grateful for the red light camera. when is the last time a scenario like this was on the news? Can you find one instance of this?

EDIT: maybe it would have helped a HAIF member (whose name escapes me) in the convertible on Main in front of the bus station who experienced someone urinating on/in his car.

You are taking it out of context. The way you look at the redlight law is that it should only apply when a cop can catch you. Using that logic should other crimes only be punishable if a cop can catch you the act ?

How about a hit and run driver ? Would you be ok with it if the camera caught the person that just killed your family by running a redlight and drove off, or would the cop need to be posted at the intersetion to write down the license plate ?

Edited August 22, 2007 by TJones

[musicman]

You are taking it out of context. The way you look at the redlight law is that it should only apply when a cop can catch you. Using that logic should other crimes only be punishable if a cop can catch you the act ?

How about a hit and run driver ? Would you be ok with it if the camera caught the person that just killed your family by running a redlight and drove off, or would the cop need to be posted at the intersetion to write down the license plate ?

your rape scenario comes into play with cameras...YES..but red light ones?

of course the more evidence the better. it's not whether cameras are good but whether they are warranted. if just as much relief can be gained by changing the yellow light duration, if YOU were in charge of the budget would you spend money if it wasn't necessary?

having the camera there if my family is killed is great, but if my family was killed it's really not going to bring me relief.

[CDeb]

YOU were in charge of the budget would you spend money if it wasn't necessary?

Whoa, whoa, whoa! Wait a minute.

I thought red light cameras were about making money, not spending it ??!!??!!

Edited August 22, 2007 by CDeb

[musicman]

Whoa, whoa, whoa! Wait a minute.

I thought red light cameras were about making money, not spending it ??!!??!!

yep. somebody's getting a contract or two. city's getting money in their money chest. there's definitely money involved and WE"RE having to pay for it.

[northbeaumont]

yep. somebody's getting a contract or two. city's getting money in their money chest. there's definitely money involved and WE"RE having to pay for it.

You'd now better make certain that you come to a complete stop before turning right on red. The front page of today's Chronicle says that you'll get a ticket if one of those red light camera films you making what they call a "California Stop."

[TJones]

your rape scenario comes into play with cameras...YES..but red light ones?

of course the more evidence the better. it's not whether cameras are good but whether they are warranted. if just as much relief can be gained by changing the yellow light duration, if YOU were in charge of the budget would you spend money if it wasn't necessary?

having the camera there if my family is killed is great, but if my family was killed it's really not going to bring me relief.

You are misunderstanding a little bit. I am saying cameras in general (not just red light cameras) to help twart crimes or eventually catch crimes on tape is a GOOD thing. "Big Brother" watching me burn through a stop light doesn't lead me to believe that he will force me to install a camera in my house next week. Red light cameras are being installed for a purpose, in order to better use our police force elsewhere as needed. Don't you get that ?

Do you honestly believe red light cameras aren't cutting down on red light runnings. If you know where they are, are you going to avoid that intersection, just because you MUST RUN RED LIGHTS, and you just can't help yourself ? Or, will you be a little more wary of where the cameras are, and most likely NOT run the intersection.

Edited August 22, 2007 by TJones