Shell Energy Stadium

[lockmat]

a venue will bring other aspects as well (restaurants, bars). and if you live downtown sports fan or not, i think you should be prepared to deal with noise and crowds.

I just wouldn't want to live right across the street from the stadium, ya know? Down a block or two seems like it would make a big difference.

I know the stadium I work at here, neighborhood people call to ask if we'll turn down the sound system. I'm sure that's not as big of a problem at MMP since it's closed most of the time and it's not as open as it is here. At MMP, I bet more of the sound goes straight up.

Seems like those German type stadiums would help conceal some noise too.

Shade would help, but a better approach would be air movement. Evening games do not have a problem with direct sunlight, but the humidity rises as the temperature goes down. Moving the air is critical to feeling more comfortable.

Good call.

That's something the Texans probably should have looked into, even if the wind hindered kicks and passes.

Edited May 15, 2007 by lockmat

[houstonsemipro]

Let's assume it happens.

How does this affect East Downtown and the Near East End.

You would begin encroaching upon 150-175 sports dates in that area per year (MLS, MLB, NBA, high school football, college basketball, college baseball). Youve got a convention center and hotel. A new park. Concerts that go with the 3 sports venues.

Is it enough for entrepeneurs in the city to look at that area and say...this is the perfect area for a restaurant or casual/sports bar. Seems like this area of town would be perfect for a casual entertainment and dining district to develop.

^^^ Actually, it will be 4 facilties for a concert in Downtown. New soccer stadium, MMP, Toyota Center and House of Blues (Houston Pavilions).

[Trae]

This stadium should be nice. I wouldn't mind living across the street from a stadium. If the outside facade is nice, and maybe some retail/shops/restaurants are on the outside, it wouldn't be too bad.

[CSOM]

^^^ Actually, it will be 4 facilties for a concert in Downtown. New soccer stadium, MMP, Toyota Center and House of Blues (Houston Pavilions).

Don't forget Verizon Wireless @ Bayou Place, The Engine Room/Jet Lounge by St. Joseph's and the Meridian right across from Toyota Center. True not as big as MMP, TC, but Verizon Wireless is about the size we can expect from HoB, and ER/Meridian get smaller acts as well. I'm sure I'm forgetting about a club or two, but there are plenty of concert venues DT.

[ProHouston]

Don't forget Verizon Wireless @ Bayou Place, The Engine Room/Jet Lounge by St. Joseph's and the Meridian right across from Toyota Center. True not as big as MMP, TC, but Verizon Wireless is about the size we can expect from HoB, and ER/Meridian get smaller acts as well. I'm sure I'm forgetting about a club or two, but there are plenty of concert venues DT.

This is also Warehouse Live that is in the East end.

[Jax]

Here is an article from the Chronicle about the possibility of a downtown stadium. Sounds great to me.

What's up with these people that commented on the Chronicle article who are so concerned with parking that they are afraid of this idea of new development on the surface lots? Surface lots are ugly wastes of space. Build a garage or something. Build some garages along the metro line so people can take the train to the games. Aren't there tones of abandoned buildings in that area that could potentially serve as sites for a future parking garage?

http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/metrop...an/4808048.html

[musicman]

Aren't there tones of abandoned buildings in that area that could potentially serve as sites for a future parking garage?

Many of the buildings aren't empty. i know quite a few artists types that live and/or have studios nearby. i think parking-wise they would have to hope no activities are done simultaneously. the parking situation can get bad with the astros games and with another 20000 fans, it will likely make it worse. i don't see the city building anything that can handle 7000 or so cars.

[RedScare]

They don't have to build a 7,000 car structure. There is plenty of parking in the area now. If the surface lot is used for a stadium, only 900 spaces need to be replaced. Harris County's garage expansion alone is adding 800 spaces. Additionally, the City park is adding 630. The Astros' interest will be to get a (probably) larger garage that they can share with the Dynamo. The advantage to the Astros is parking revenue for season ticket holders. Whether the Dynamo get revenue for their games is unknown.

Additionally, METRO just let a contract for the Southeast line, which will run westbound on Capital and eastbound on Rusk, opening up parking options throughout downtown. While the occasional double scheduling of games will make competition for close-in spaces fierce, there are plenty of parking spaces to handle 2 sellout crowds of 65,000. Remember, downtown handles 200,000 workers daily with ease.

[JJxvi]

We, the taxpayers, own a parking lot. A sucky one. Lot C pass holders are almost completely made up of corporate season ticket holders who give tickets away to clients or employees along with a Lot C pass. Thos people who are smart ditch the pass and pay $5 and walk or $15 for convenience. The tightwads and the ones who dont know what they are getting into in Lot C park there and wait for an hour to get out of the lot after the game, probably while cursing to themselves.

Our options are simple, 1) Lease the land for this abomination of a parking lot to AEG for a soccer stadium that they will pay for or 2) Continue leasing it to the Astros for a parking lot that essentially adds no value to us.

Easy choice IMO.

[Subdude]

Here is an article from the Chronicle about the possibility of a downtown stadium. Sounds great to me.

What's up with these people that commented on the Chronicle article who are so concerned with parking that they are afraid of this idea of new development on the surface lots? Surface lots are ugly wastes of space. Build a garage or something. Build some garages along the metro line so people can take the train to the games. Aren't there tones of abandoned buildings in that area that could potentially serve as sites for a future parking garage?

http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/metrop...an/4808048.html

Sheesh, God forbid we should ever eliminate any parking places. People might have to walk a little farther, and then the world would end!

That part of downtown has tons of parking available. In fact, the parking garage that was originally planned for Minute Maid Park was cancelled due to the ease with which existing downtown parking was able to accomodate the demand from Astros games. In addition to the new parking Red mentioned, there are also new parking garages at Toyota Center and ten floors of it potentially at Discovery Tower.

[ricco67]

let's not forget the parking at the church on san jacinto @ prairie.

it is doubtful that parking will be scarce, it can only get more expensive, and tightwads like me will park along the line and ride the train in.

[musicman]

In addition to the new parking Red mentioned, there are also new parking garages at Toyota Center and ten floors of it potentially at Discovery Tower.

lots of new places require new parking. i won't make the assumption that events won't happen simo. building new parking for the proposed stadium will be required.

[Subdude]

But even if events happen simultaneously, which is bound to occur sometimes, is there really a shortage of parking? I haven't seen the stats, but I'm having a real hard time believing that existing downtown lots couldn't absorb the incremental load from soccer games. As I mentioned, MMP didn't require a garage (oh, excuse me, "structured parking"), and baseball games draw a lot more fans than does soccer. Maybe they should do like MMP and hold off on new garages until they can see if the need is really there. I'm betting it won't be.

On a related note, a coworker from Chicago last week suggested that downtown south of Dallas should be renamed "the Parking District."

[musicman]

But even if events happen simultaneously, which is bound to occur sometimes, is there really a shortage of parking? I haven't seen the stats, but I'm having a real hard time believing that existing downtown lots couldn't absorb the incremental load from soccer games. As I mentioned, MMP didn't require a garage (oh, excuse me, "structured parking"), and baseball games draw a lot more fans than does soccer. Maybe they should do like MMP and hold off on new garages until they can see if the need is really there. I'm betting it won't be.

i have a friend that works at GRB and they're having issues according to what she said. i guess getting rid of the parking lot out front hurt them without having replacement parking. she said that quite a bit of their business involves convention goers not staying downtown.

[Jax]

Haha I've made that comment as well!

(Parking District)

[RedScare]

music, new parking for the new stadium would be required, but not for the reason you state. The Astros lease the surface lot for season ticket parking. The lost lot would have to be replaced.

A survey conducted prior to the opening found 25,000 parking spaces located within walking distance of MMP. The rule of thumb for stadium parking is 1 space per 3 seats (unlike workers, sports fans rarely travel alone), meaning MMP had twice the parking needed. Even adding a soccer stadium only puts the need at 22,000 spaces for a simultaneous event. The Harris County, Church and Park garages did not exist at the time MMP opened, meaning that roughly 3,500 spaces are being added within 3 blocks of MMP.

I don't know how GRB could be having issues, with the 2,500 space Toyota garage and the 1,600 space Hilton/GRB garage within a couple of blocks. Regardless, the 630 space garage will be available in less than a year. A new MMP garage would also help GRB.

EDIT: Corrected Toyota and GRB capacities.

Edited May 16, 2007 by RedScare

[Jax]

I may be wrong about the abandoned buildings. The two times I've been in that area were for a show at "Warehouse Live" and a walk through what I was told was downtown's "Chinatown" which appeared to be mostly abandoned buildings with the exception of a few small stores. Maybe I was wrong and it only appeared to be mostly abandoned...

[musicman]

I don't know how GRB could be having issues, with the 5,000 space Toyota garage and the 2,000 space Hilton/GRB garage within a couple of blocks. Regardless, the 630 space garage will be available in less than a year. A new MMP garage would also help GRB.

ironically i've only been to the GRB once this yr for the urban planning meeting a month or so ago. a couple of people at my table were complaining then about the walk since the parking lot across the street disappeared due to construction.

EDIT:got your eds red.

Edited May 16, 2007 by musicman

[Subdude]

I suspect the GRB "issues" aren't lack of parking per se, but that people are bitching and moaning that with Discovery Green under construction they can't park right in front of the GRB front door and stroll in. Downtown has massive parking capacity, but people are convinced there's a shortfall unless they can park right by exactly where they want to go.

[Subdude]

a couple of people at my table were complaining then about the walk since the parking lot across the street disappeared due to construction.

See?! Bunch of crybabies.

[TheNiche]

I suspect the GRB "issues" aren't lack of parking per se, but that people are bitching and moaning that with Discovery Green under construction they can't park right in front of the GRB front door and stroll in. Downtown has massive parking capacity, but people are convinced there's a shortfall unless they can park right by exactly where they want to go.

That's exactly it, though. Different people have different notions of what is considered "walking distance." If there are no parking spaces either within walking distance or priced at a rate that they consider reasonable for the convenience, then there really and truely is insufficient parking to accomodate them.

Bottom line: parking closer to a destination > parking further from a destination.

[lockmat]

A possible scenario for partial funding for the stadium is hotel occupancy and sales taxes. Is this one way the city finds help for paying for the facility without putting the burden on the citizens of Houston/county; because it would be outsiders/visitors ultimately paying for the cost, at least the revenue earned from the taxes?

Although, sales taxes come from anyone purchasing something, right? So that would include anyone, resident or visitor?

[Subdude]

A possible scenario for partial funding for the stadium is hotel occupancy and sales taxes. Is this one way the city finds help for paying for the facility without putting the burden on the citizens of Houston/county; because it would be outsiders/visitors ultimately paying for the cost, at least the revenue earned from the taxes?

Although, sales taxes come from anyone purchasing something, right? So that would include anyone, resident or visitor?

In this case it seems that most of the funding is intended to be private, with the city helping out on parking and infrastructure. Reliant and MMP were built using public funds (hotel occupancy and car rental tax). The argument for this is what you said - visitors to the city are picking up the tab - so it is a popular thing to tell voters. On the other hand, it is still using public tax capacity. Those same funds could have been spent on schools, for instance.

[KinkaidAlum]

music, new parking for the new stadium would be required, but not for the reason you state. The Astros lease the surface lot for season ticket parking. The lost lot would have to be replaced.

A survey conducted prior to the opening found 25,000 parking spaces located within walking distance of MMP. The rule of thumb for stadium parking is 1 space per 3 seats (unlike workers, sports fans rarely travel alone), meaning MMP had twice the parking needed. Even adding a soccer stadium only puts the need at 22,000 spaces for a simultaneous event. The Harris County, Church and Park garages did not exist at the time MMP opened, meaning that roughly 3,500 spaces are being added within 3 blocks of MMP.

I don't know how GRB could be having issues, with the 2,500 space Toyota garage and the 1,600 space Hilton/GRB garage within a couple of blocks. Regardless, the 630 space garage will be available in less than a year. A new MMP garage would also help GRB.

EDIT: Corrected Toyota and GRB capacities.

Because Houstonians are fat and lazy, that's why. If the parking spot ain't right in front of the strip center, I ain't getting out for donuts. I'll just find a drive-thru.

There is no way the GRB is having parking issues unless an issue involves someone actually having to walk a block or three. Heaven forbid!

[lockmat]

In this case it seems that most of the funding is intended to be private, with the city helping out on parking and infrastructure. Reliant and MMP were built using public funds (hotel occupancy and car rental tax). The argument for this is what you said - visitors to the city are picking up the tab - so it is a popular thing to tell voters. On the other hand, it is still using public tax capacity. Those same funds could have been spent on schools, for instance.

Interesting, thanks.

So does that have a good or bad effect on the business owners? They have to raise their prices right, even though that extra cost they have to cover doesn't bring in extra revenue, it just covers the money they'd lose had they not raised their price b/c of the tax increase. Right?

So really, it's a no win for them. Or is there something else they do that I'm not thinking?

[lockmat]

Because Houstonians are fat and lazy, that's why. If the parking spot ain't right in front of the strip center, I ain't getting out for donuts. I'll just find a drive-thru.

There is no way the GRB is having parking issues unless an issue involves someone actually having to walk a block or three. Heaven forbid!

I don't entirely blame it on the people themselves. It's just that their used to their environment. Houston is made for the car. We need to go somewhere, we get in our car. Walking doesn't even enter the mind.

I live in the downtown area here in Albuquerque, and b/c of gas prices and just having the option, I've kind of had to reprogram my way of thinking for means of travel. I walked about a mile or so down the road last night for dinner. At first thought, it seems kind of far, but it only took about ten minutes.

People in Houston just don't think that way by default.

Edited May 16, 2007 by lockmat

[brerrabbit]

This may be slightly off topic, but here goes. Discussion here has come around to parking for events in downtown and that is certainly a big consideration, but the jest of the discussion is really about a new stadium for the Dynamo, how to fund it and where it will be. I'm all for sports and while I don't watch soccer I understand those who enjoy it. What is starting to bother me is the idea of build, build, build and let the city/ county pay for it. Make no mistake about it, if funds to build anything are provided by the city or the county, it costs you the taxpayer. Forget the politicians buzz phrases like "all the funds will come from hotel taxes, and rental car taxes, so your not paying it". Thats a load of BS because since that money is paying off Reliant, Minute Maid, Toyota Center, and oh by the way the $50 million of improvements to the Dome from the eighties its not going to other concerns that would benifit the larger population as a whole, like parks, roads, and other city infrastructure. Some one even mentioned the new park in front of GRB. While it will no doubt be nice, I seriously question the idea of spending $70 million on a 2 maybe three block park. Again the majority of the money is coming from donations, but just like any other scarce commodity (in this case money) there is a limited supply of it and they just took a huge chunk of it from the foundations and corporate givers for a while. This project will delay widespread park projects all across Houston because your spending so much, for so little. While Drayton McClain looks to be pushing for the new Dynamo stadium, keep this in mind, he will only support the ide if in return he gets a publically funded parking garage that he can take revenue from. He knows the loss of surface parking to the stadium will be what he needs to force the city's hand on the matter. The latest proposal for the practice facility to go along with the new stadium would be at highway 288 and Airport on a 40 acre piece of land there. And get this the rumor is the powers that be want the non profit group that aquires and build park for the city to fund the aquisition. Guess where they get their money from? The same places Mayor Bill has raided for his $70 million park at GRB. I want to see Houston be a dynamic beautiful city that grows and prospers, after all I am a native Houstonian, and a sixth generation Texan. This is my home, and this is my heritage, but mortgaged the future to get all this stuff is not what I had in mind. The city/county needs to stop spending money like a drunken sailor on shore leave or Houston is going to suffer greatly tomorrow for todays short sighted actions.

[lockmat]

This may be slightly off topic...

This is not something unique to the city of Houston though, is it? Not that I'm justifying it, but I'm sure other cities including ours has been doing this for years and years. It's just the way things are, right? Or no?

Anyone have examples to counter?

After all, I'm just assuming...which may or may not be a good idea.

[Original Timmy Chan's]

Because Houstonians are fat and lazy, that's why. If the parking spot ain't right in front of the strip center, I ain't getting out for donuts. I'll just find a drive-thru.

There is no way the GRB is having parking issues unless an issue involves someone actually having to walk a block or three. Heaven forbid!

I'm always amazed at the number of people who pay to park near Minute Maid. People will pay $5, $10, even $20 to park, when there is tons of free parking nearby.

I've never had to park as far as Dowling to get free parking (just have to watch for "No Parking" signs).

Dowling is all of a 4 or 5 block walk. It's all of 1/4 mile, or 1300 feet. That's about 520 steps. That's about 5-10 minutes depending on how slow you walk.

I've actually seen people pay to park in the grass lot at Dowling and Capitol, while there's free parking on the street on the same block! Don't understand it...

When beers are $7.50 a piece, you gotta be prudent on parking.

[skwatra]

I walked about a mile or so down the road last night for dinner. At first thought, it seems kind of far, but it only took about ten minutes.

you walk a 10 minute mile? impressive

but i understand what you're saying. i don't mind walking at all when i'm visiting nyc. but when i lived in clear lake, i would be annoyed if i didn't find parking close by my destination. now that i'm in midtown, i'm used to it, and walk all over, and it doesn't feel wrong. its all a mindset, one most people here don't have.