Shell Energy Stadium

[bruno]

If they build the stadium in Sugarland it will be pass hwy6 down 59 south somewere down there.

If they build the stadium in Pearland it will be on 288 and Beltway8

It looks like Pearland would be alot closer then Sugarland.

[dgreco]

I read a little, do you think the best bet is to be near transit ? and also do you think they should build a garage or a lot. garage may look more asthetic, but it will be a pain in the ass to get out. I personally, wish soccer would take the approach of baseball, and build fields in the city, with basically on transit, and parking surrounding areas in garages. With soccer every view you can have a great site for the city, and I think like most ballparks it helps the city be more than just a city, the outdoor atmosphere is so much more than just an indoor area, especially in the city.

[TheNiche]

According to the report, the parking lot I'm referring to (I think you're right; Texas/Preston/Bastrop) is owned by the city, and if the deal went through, the City of Houston would donate the land to the team in the deal. If that's the case, where would the city lose money? Instead, they'd lose land that they could have sold to someone else, and in effect, don't have to put much money (if any money) down on a new stadium, right?

The contentious issue would be parking arrangements for the Astros. Structured parking may be the preferred way to go to make up for parking lost to a soccer stadium, but that can get prohibitively expensive when you're only talking about something that is used seasonally and periodically, and then for only a few hours at a time. It wouldn't surprise me if they just decided to go with eminent domain for a few more blocks and tear down some more old buildings to make room for surface parking, but then someone ends up eating the cost of a lot of downtown area land... so we come back to the land costs as being a reason for the Dynamos to locate at Del Mar or elsewhere.

Also, I'm not sure when soccer season is, so I don't know whether there is overlap, but if there were the possibility for having two games going on concurrently, that would really create problems and would basically be a deal-killer right off the bat.

[ricco67]

The contentious issue would be parking arrangements for the Astros. Structured parking may be the preferred way to go to make up for parking lost to a soccer stadium, but that can get prohibitively expensive when you're only talking about something that is used seasonally and periodically, and then for only a few hours at a time. It wouldn't surprise me if they just decided to go with eminent domain for a few more blocks and tear down some more old buildings to make room for surface parking, but then someone ends up eating the cost of a lot of downtown area land... so we come back to the land costs as being a reason for the Dynamos to locate at Del Mar or elsewhere.

Also, I'm not sure when soccer season is, so I don't know whether there is overlap, but if there were the possibility for having two games going on concurrently, that would really create problems and would basically be a deal-killer right off the bat.

I think it would probably within the city's best interest to keep it as close to the core as possible to at least help with property values (i.e. Taxes) of the surrounding area.

There is also a matter of getting people into and out of the area. Putting it on a future rail stop would be ideal, especially as the lines increase and more people are willing to take the rail in as opposed to dealing with the traffic.

Structured parking isn't that bag of a deal, there are quite a few spaces within walking distance as it is at MMP (I've seen people walk all the way to/from Smith/Texas lots) and if you're too lazy for that, I'm sure the pedia cabs would help you out as well.

[musicman]

The Astros don't want to inconvenience their customers (esp. their best customers), and I can guarantee that they'll throw a fit over any lost parking or the prospect of getting crowded out in their own backyards. It also wouldn't surprise me if they have contractual veto power over something like this, or some arrangement built into their contract about parking availability.

It is surprising to me at just how many people do go downtown for the stros/rockets games and how it changes the parking situation at places such as market square. having another 25k people, downtown for a soccer game as well would be challenging parking-wise to say the least.

[DJ V Lawrence]

do you think they should build a garage or a lot. garage may look more asthetic, but it will be a pain in the ass to get out. I personally, wish soccer would take the approach of baseball, and build fields in the city, with basically on transit, and parking surrounding areas in garages. With soccer every view you can have a great site for the city, and I think like most ballparks it helps the city be more than just a city, the outdoor atmosphere is so much more than just an indoor area, especially in the city.

Personally, I think a parking garage would be ideal in this situation for the Astros, and surface parking for Dynamo on the other side of the freeway. The Astros have 81 games a season at MMP, so it could be a good investment for a grage for MMP events to be built at a current Astros surface lot (I think most surface lots near MMP are owned by the city, but I'm not sure. Could someone confirm that?) The city could get some extra money from paid parking there, plus pursue selling current surface lots to developers looking to invest downtown, since those spaces wouldn't be a neccesity anymore. Also remember that the new Downtown Park will also have underground parking.

Houston Dynamo are the only team in Houston other than the Texans with a pre-game tailgate party from fans before the games, and that could be used as an advantage in the Warehouse District. If built there, the idea from the city/Dynamo should be to build out and redevelop the area of the Warehouse District; not into Downtown. That should be left to the 'Stros. Now the after-game parties could be Downtown, perhaps.

[musicman]

Personally, I think a parking garage would be ideal in this situation for the Astros, and surface parking for Dynamo on the other side of the freeway. The Astros have 81 games a season at MMP, so it could be a good investment for a grage for MMP events to be built at a current Astros surface lot (I think most surface lots near MMP are owned by the city, but I'm not sure. Could someone confirm that?) The city could get some extra money from paid parking there, plus pursue selling current surface lots to developers looking to invest downtown, since those spaces wouldn't be a neccesity anymore. Also remember that the new Downtown Park will also have underground parking.

Houston Dynamo are the only team in Houston other than the Texans with a pre-game tailgate party from fans before the games, and that could be used as an advantage in the Warehouse District. If built there, the idea from the city/Dynamo should be to build out and redevelop the area of the Warehouse District; not into Downtown. That should be left to the 'Stros. Now the after-game parties could be Downtown, perhaps.

your dreams sure are ambitious.

[DJ V Lawrence]

your dreams sure are ambitious.

I take it you think what I said was unrealistic. Which parts?

[musicman]

I take it you think what I said was unrealistic. Which parts?

1) astros aren't exactly cash rich compared to some other teams. you think they could purchase land and pay for a parking garage when they won't pay a few million more for "big name" players? bring in big names would definitely be beneficial for them. would a parking garage do that?

2)so you want the people around the stadium to sell their parking lots to get rid of parking and then at the same time build a stadium for soccer there which will require more parking?

3)Remember that the parking lot under discovery green will be for that area (including GRB/Toyota/pavillions/etc). it won't be sitting empty. i would say that more than half of the fans would never walk that far to minute maid anyway.

4)now because the soccer stadium is built (again dreaming), it will cause the warehouse district on the east side to be developed?

5) i won't address any after game parties.

[dgreco]

i think the tailgating is somewhat imnprotant to the soccer world, but realistically, people will come either way. If the sports Rockets/Astros/Dynamo all did a garage together that might be financially possible. They do have overlapping games, but its not hard to build a large garage to hold for 2 events at once. If they do a nice job, it will be a nice addition to the skyline?

[DJ V Lawrence]

i think the tailgating is somewhat imnprotant to the soccer world, but realistically, people will come either way. If the sports Rockets/Astros/Dynamo all did a garage together that might be financially possible. They do have overlapping games, but its not hard to build a large garage to hold for 2 events at once. If they do a nice job, it will be a nice addition to the skyline?

I think you're making a mistake on proximity. The Rockets are not in proximity to share a parking garage with the Astros, and even if they were, the Rockets have their own garage already. Secondly, even if Dynamo and Astros were in proximity, it'd be unlikely that they could use the same garage because their schedules overlap. What would happen when both teams are playing on the same day/night?

The idea is to keep both parking options seperate, where Dynamo fans park on one side of 59, and Astros fans are encouraged to park on the other. The only way that could happen is if a garage were built for the 'Stros within Downtown, and parking options were made for Dynamo fans on their side of the freeway.

[DJ V Lawrence]

1) astros aren't exactly cash rich compared to some other teams. you think they could purchase land and pay for a parking garage when they won't pay a few million more for "big name" players? bring in big names would definitely be beneficial for them. would a parking garage do that?

The Astros wouldn't purchase any land here. The City Of Houston owns some of the surface lots within proximity to MMP. What I'm saying is that the City Of Houston build a garage on one of those surface lots strickly for MMP events (perhaps designated spots for season-ticket holders), with a financial plan to have the garage make a profit for the city. Perhaps the "Stros and Houston could come up with a deal where the designated parking space would be included in season-ticket package if need-be.

2)so you want the people around the stadium to sell their parking lots to get rid of parking and then at the same time build a stadium for soccer there which will require more parking?

I'm saying that they build soccer parking spaces on the same side of 59 as the soccer stadium, not in Downtown. Also, if spaces normally used for Astros games and GRB would not be needed as much because of the new spaces available via parking garages and Discovery Green, why keep them as surface lots? Why not sell the land after the garages and Park are completed? That would just be more profit for the city.

3)Remember that the parking lot under discovery green will be for that area (including GRB/Toyota/pavillions/etc). it won't be sitting empty. i would say that more than half of the fans would never walk that far to minute maid anyway.

Discovery Green will not be used for Toyota Center; they already have a parking garage and surface lots on their side of Hiltons America. There's also a parking garage being built for Pavillions, so that will not be the primary place to park for that either. The parking spaces at Discovery Green will mainly be for the park, GRB, Hiltns America, and perhaps a few Astros fans if other surface lots no longer exist.

4)now because the soccer stadium is built (again dreaming), it will cause the warehouse district on the east side to be developed?

It would help to be a part of the process. There's a couple nice lofts popping up here and there in that area, but not much else but run-down buildings overlooking the Astros parking spaces on that side of the freeway. I'd rather have a pedestrian-friendly soccer stadium there than a neighborhood of abandoned buildings if I were a developer.

5) i won't address any after game parties.

Don't have to. But there's spots throughout Houston that have post-game parties for Dynamo, and I thought it was okay to mention the word "party" because Main Street Square and Pavillions will be Downtown; the area where Houston's looking to promote as the designated entertainment/clubbing areas.

Edited April 6, 2007 by DJ V Lawrence

[musicman]

The Astros wouldn't purchase any land here. The City Of Houston owns some of the surface lots within proximity to MMP. What I'm saying is that the City Of Houston build a garage on one of those surface lots strickly for MMP events (perhaps designated spots for season-ticket holders), with a financial plan to have the garage make a profit for the city. Perhaps the "Stros and Houston could come up with a deal where the designated parking space would be included in season-ticket package if need-be.

Are you aware the City is strapped for funds??? The City is looking for sources of guaranteed revenue (red light cams, trash collection, parking meters, etc) at minimal cost. Building a garage to support a county stadium is probalby not on their list.

I'm saying that they build soccer parking spaces on the same side of 59 as the soccer stadium, not in Downtown. Also, if spaces normally used for Astros games and GRB would not be needed as much because of the new spaces available via parking garages and Discovery Green, why keep them as surface lots? Why not sell the land after the garages and Park are completed? That would just be more profit for the city.

remember that the astros fans are parking on the over side of 59 too and quite a bit of them do. there are LOTS less spaces now for GRB because of discovery and many of the other new projects. so the parking over there will become scarce relatively. What land are you talking about selling? first you say that the city can make money off of parking and now you want to sell the garage? you can only do one or the other, not both.

Discovery Green will not be used for Toyota Center; they already have a parking garage and surface lots on their side of Hiltons America. There's also a parking garage being built for Pavillions, so that will not be the primary place to park for that either. The parking spaces at Discovery Green will mainly be for the park, GRB, Hiltns America, and perhaps a few Astros fans if other surface lots no longer exist.

If you frequented the GRB/hilton area, two yrs ago, it would be very obvious that parking is not as easy as it was then. the garage for pavillions will take care of some customers, however it isn't designed to hold all of them and as a result more people will be parking on the street. people ARE parking in the discovery green/pavillion area currently to attend events at toyota center. do you realize that the toyota center garage does NOT hold all the cars for those attending toyota center events? i believe the garage holds 2500 while the stadium holds about 18000. i guess if you could get 7.2 persons in each car I could believe you.

It would help to be a part of the process. There's a couple nice lofts popping up here and there in that area, but not much else but run-down buildings overlooking the Astros parking spaces on that side of the freeway. I'd rather have a pedestrian-friendly soccer stadium there than a neighborhood of abandoned buildings if I were a developer.

Don't have to. But there's spots throughout Houston that have post-game parties for Dynamo, and I thought it was okay to mention the word "party" because Main Street Square and Pavillions will be Downtown; the area where Houston's looking to promote as the designated entertainment/clubbing areas.

A pedestrian friendly stadium is great, but you must realize that most will be driving there? so you must accomodate the majority. I don't think the City is promoting the downtown clubbing areas any more. take a ride down there and see if you see any partying going on. They are out of the biz because the new residents are complaining about them BIG time.

[DJ V Lawrence]

Are you aware the City is strapped for funds??? The City is looking for sources of guaranteed revenue (red light cams, trash collection, parking meters, etc) at minimal cost. Building a garage to support a county stadium is probalby not on their list.

Event parking in city-owned spaces = guaranteed revenue. A parking garage built on a current surface lot = more spaces available on a confined space to recieve revenue from.

What land are you talking about selling? first you say that the city can make money off of parking and now you want to sell the garage? you can only do one or the other, not both.

What I'm saying is that since the City of Houston already makes a profit on some surface lots around MMP for Astros events, they could convert some of that into parking garages to conserve space so the lots on the other side of 59 from MMP could be used solely for the soccer/concert stadium events and developments after parking plans were situated

If you frequented the GRB/hilton area, two yrs ago, it would be very obvious that parking is not as easy as it was then. the garage for pavillions will take care of some customers, however it isn't designed to hold all of them and as a result more people will be parking on the street. people ARE parking in the discovery green/pavillion area currently to attend events at toyota center. do you realize that the toyota center garage does NOT hold all the cars for those attending toyota center events? i believe the garage holds 2500 while the stadium holds about 18000. i guess if you could get 7.2 persons in each car I could believe you.

I know the Toyota Center garage doesn't hold all the cars; I went to a Rockets game last week and we parked in a surface lot across the street. Discovery Green/Pavillions currently aren't used for Rockets events because both places (some of those blocks were surface lots prior) are under construction. The way Toyota Center fans are parking now are probably how they will park after both projects are completed.

A pedestrian friendly stadium is great, but you must realize that most will be driving there? so you must accomodate the majority. I don't think the City is promoting the downtown clubbing areas any more. take a ride down there and see if you see any partying going on. They are out of the biz because the new residents are complaining about them BIG time.

Main Street is still the main clubbing street in Houston, and Houston will be sure to promote Pavillons as an entertainment center once it's complete.

[musicman]

Event parking in city-owned spaces = guaranteed revenue. A parking garage built on a current surface lot = more spaces available on a confined space to recieve revenue from.

oh ok so now you want them to KEEP the garage and not sell it. you're all over the map on this one.

What I'm saying is that since the City of Houston already makes a profit on some surface lots around MMP for Astros events, they could convert some of that into parking garages to conserve space so the lots on the other side of 59 from MMP could be used solely for the soccer/concert stadium events and developments after parking plans were situated

making a profit is one thing, making enough to construct a parking garage is another. how much profit is the city already making? do you have the figures that lead you to that conclusion?

I know the Toyota Center garage doesn't hold all the cars; I went to a Rockets game last week and we parked in a surface lot across the street. Discovery Green/Pavillions currently aren't used for Rockets events because both places (some of those blocks were surface lots prior) are under construction. The way Toyota Center fans are parking now are probably how they will park after both projects are completed.

the last two times i went to toyota center i parked along dallas about a block or two from main. the parking situation won't be the same. people always flock to the closest parking space (the discovery garage will be a new option for toyota center fans). if pavillions has a crowd, i can pretty much bet that parking on dallas (where i parked) won't be available.

Main Street is still the main clubbing street in Houston,

Go down to main street tonight, you probably will change your answer.

Edited April 7, 2007 by musicman

[DJ V Lawrence]

oh ok so now you want them to KEEP the garage and not sell it. you're all over the map on this one.

I never said anything about getting rid or selling garages themselves. What I'm saying is that we convert surface lots within Downtown that are normally used for MMP events into parking garages. And if there's enough spaces within those garages to accomodate the events at MMP, the other surface lots at a farther proximity could be sold for development. If not, then leave them as is.

making a profit is one thing, making enough to construct a parking garage is another. how much profit is the city already making? do you have the figures that lead you to that conclusion?

I don't know any exact numbers or figures. What I do know is that if hundreds of cars are paying $10 per parking space, someone's getting paid. And if it's the City of Houston that owns the land, then it's the City recieving the money.

the last two times i went to toyota center i parked along dallas about a block or two from main. the parking situation won't be the same. people always flock to the closest parking space (the discovery garage will be a new option for toyota center fans). if pavillions has a crowd, i can pretty much bet that parking on dallas (where i parked) won't be available.

Sounds reasonable. I think the Discovery Green underground parking is primarily for GRB and the park itself, but yeah, people will park there if neccesary if it's convenient and within proximity. No debate there:)

Go down to main street tonight, you probably will change your answer.

I'ma chill tonight, since tommorow's Easter and the opening game. But still, Main Street is the highest promoted party area in Houston.

[dgreco]

I think you're making a mistake on proximity. The Rockets are not in proximity to share a parking garage with the Astros, and even if they were, the Rockets have their own garage already. Secondly, even if Dynamo and Astros were in proximity, it'd be unlikely that they could use the same garage because their schedules overlap. What would happen when both teams are playing on the same day/night?

The idea is to keep both parking options seperate, where Dynamo fans park on one side of 59, and Astros fans are encouraged to park on the other. The only way that could happen is if a garage were built for the 'Stros within Downtown, and parking options were made for Dynamo fans on their side of the freeway.

the garage doesn't need to be near either stadium, this way they could incorporate a nice light rail stop from the garages to the stadiums/arenas.

[musicman]

I don't know any exact numbers or figures. What I do know is that if hundreds of cars are paying $10 per parking space, someone's getting paid. And if it's the City of Houston that owns the land, then it's the City recieving the money.

assuming they don't lease it out. they do lease out quite a bit.

I'ma chill tonight, since tommorow's Easter and the opening game. But still, Main Street is the highest promoted party area in Houston.

i was downtown this evening....nothing resembling a party was going on.

[TheNiche]

I don't know any exact numbers or figures. What I do know is that if hundreds of cars are paying $10 per parking space, someone's getting paid. And if it's the City of Houston that owns the land, then it's the City recieving the money.

Question: if parking garages are so profitable, why isn't the private sector developing them as stand-alone product?

[DJ V Lawrence]

Question: if parking garages are so profitable, why isn't the private sector developing them as stand-alone product?

That's a good question. Perhaps another question is "where is the money going from Downtown parking spaces?" I'm not sure how the public-private sectors work in terms of parking garages Downtown, but the only undebatable fact here is that you normally won't find free parking Downtown unless you really know where to look.

[musicman]

That's a good question. Perhaps another question is "where is the money going from Downtown parking spaces?" I'm not sure how the public-private sectors work in terms of parking garages Downtown, but the only undebatable fact here is that you normally won't find free parking Downtown unless you really know where to look.

parking isn't as profitable as you claim. i rarely pay if ever for parking downtown. while i don't go during the day weekdays, i might go on the evenings and there usually is parking avail. since meters are free in the evenings, you really don't ahve to look for it.

[dgreco]

parking isn't as profitable as you claim. i rarely pay if ever for parking downtown. while i don't go during the day weekdays, i might go on the evenings and there usually is parking avail. since meters are free in the evenings, you really don't ahve to look for it.

I think the biggest money making is during special events; games, concerts, etc... type things. Where people will pay whatever just because they want to be close, or they aren't used to the downtown area.

[DJ V Lawrence]

I think the biggest money making is during special events; games, concerts, etc... type things. Where people will pay whatever just because they want to be close, or they aren't used to the downtown area.

I agree. You'll also notice that event parking is much higher than on a normal day.

[dgreco]

I agree. You'll also notice that event parking is much higher than on a normal day.

one example I have to confirm that is. I normally park in this lot for work, with the work pass it only costs me 3 dollars for the day. The same guy I see everyday I saw one night for a concert, even with the "special pass" that means I park there all the time it would still cost me 30 dollars for the concert. I decdied to find free parking, but I saw a lot of people going in anyway because they think they don't have options, or are to scared to look somewhere else, because they found something.

[TheNiche]

one example I have to confirm that is. I normally park in this lot for work, with the work pass it only costs me 3 dollars for the day. The same guy I see everyday I saw one night for a concert, even with the "special pass" that means I park there all the time it would still cost me 30 dollars for the concert. I decdied to find free parking, but I saw a lot of people going in anyway because they think they don't have options, or are to scared to look somewhere else, because they found something.

It is called a 'rent gradient'. Unfortunately, it is only active for a major demand generator several dozen times per year for a few hours at a time, and at all other times is so minimal a price that revenue may only cover taxes (if that).

[DJ V Lawrence]

A few quotes I recently found on the net...

Drayton McClane, the owner of the Astros, was shown on Channel 2 saying he was in favor of this location and that he was trying to get a parking structure built to replace those spots.

-----

"We want to keep them," he said. "We'd like them to be in a central location. And we've looked constructively at various different venues if this stadium doesn't work out." Mayor Bill White at the Dynamo game last night, who was with former President Bush. Quoted from Channel 13.

I think it's safe to say that negotiations are currently going on as we speak. Houston is the hands-down first choice for where the new stadium should be, with Pearland and Sugarland being fail-safe 2nd and 3rd options to insure that if it's not in Houston, they're still in the Houston-area.

Lastly, check this out:

http://www.khou.com/sports/dynamos/stories...m.2707360c.html

A recent Ch. 11 story on the downtown soccer stadium possibility. Sounds like it's gaining positive momentum.

[dgreco]

do they have any indepth renderings of the stadium?

[DJ V Lawrence]

do they have any indepth renderings of the stadium?

None whatsoever. It's safe to assume that the location of the stadium (Downtown, another part of Houston, Pearland, Sugarland) would directly affect the design and size of the stadium. If it's near the center of the city, it will probably be one of the biggest soccer stadiums in America. If it's in Pearland or Sugarland, we can expect it to be around 20,000 seats, and to accomodate high school football.

We can also assume that the day that they announce that a location has been agreed upon will probably be the day that we see the first rough-draft renderings. Seeing that this would be the first stadium built with the German league helping out on design, we can expect this to be a stand-out stadium in America.

[dgreco]

None whatsoever. It's safe to assume that the location of the stadium (Downtown, another part of Houston, Pearland, Sugarland) would directly affect the design and size of the stadium. If it's near the center of the city, it will probably be one of the biggest soccer stadiums in America. If it's in Pearland or Sugarland, we can expect it to be around 20,000 seats, and to accomodate high school football.

We can also assume that the day that they announce that a location has been agreed upon will probably be the day that we see the first rough-draft renderings. Seeing that this would be the first stadium built with the German league helping out on design, we can expect this to be a stand-out stadium in America.

I think MLS's idea is to not have more than 20-25,000 seats, so that the attendance doesn't look lost in football stadiums. I saw one or maybe a few teams us the FC Dallas stadium right?

[DJ V Lawrence]

I think MLS's idea is to not have more than 20-25,000 seats, so that the attendance doesn't look lost in football stadiums. I saw one or maybe a few teams us the FC Dallas stadium right?

DC United's new stadium will be 27,000. Also, Toronto's current stadium is at 20,000 seats, but there's already rumors of expanding it well over 30,000 because the games are already sold out.