I-45 Rebuild (North Houston Highway Improvement Project)

[samagon]

11 hours ago, lilbigjanet said:

We made I10 as big as they wanted it and ten years later it's one of the worst congested freeways in the country, and one of the most dangerous. They should not do it to I45. There are smart projects within this larger package, but the wanton installation of more urban freeway capacity is clearly not a smart choice for the city. 

this is such a misleading statistic.

they base it on the distance of the freeway being measured, so 56 fatalities per 100 miles of freeway.

https://www.click2houston.com/news/local/2021/07/31/heads-up-houston-drivers-i-45-declared-most-dangerous-us-highway-in-new-national-study/

Quote

The road has seen 56.5 fatal accidents for every 100 miles of roadway, thanks to a combination of busy, urban stretches and driver complacency, according to the report.

they should base it on the number of vehicle miles driven.

but then that wouldn't support the narrative that making i45 wider is going to make it safer.

you don't even need to drill down deeper to understand what caused the fatality, was it a drunk driver? was it a ladder in the road? or was it actually the design of the freeway that caused the collision that resulted in a fatality?

you gotta go back to 2009 for any type of article on the subject of VMT rather than road distance...

https://www.houstonpress.com/news/maybe-i-45-isnt-one-of-the-deadliest-stretches-of-highway-6740334

Quote

TxDOT recorded 363.09 on I-45 in Harris County from 2005 to 2007, versus 357.48 on other stretches of interstate highway in urban areas of Texas for the same three-year period.

 

[Houston19514]

11 hours ago, lilbigjanet said:

We made I10 as big as they wanted it and ten years later it's one of the worst congested freeways in the country, and one of the most dangerous. They should not do it to I45. There are smart projects within this larger package, but the wanton installation of more urban freeway capacity is clearly not a smart choice for the city. 

Any chance you can cite a source for either of these claims?

[samagon]

https://www.khou.com/article/traffic/houston-home-to-four-of-uss-deadliest-highways/285-579810288

sadly, it is a stat that's based on the length of the road, not normalized to VMT. so the more people on the road, clearly, the deadlier it is going to be.

the stat also doesn't take into account what makes it deadly, drunkards? ladders? mattress? poorly designed road?

so the question is, is that even a statistic that is worth looking at?

[Houston19514]

14 minutes ago, samagon said:

https://www.khou.com/article/traffic/houston-home-to-four-of-uss-deadliest-highways/285-579810288

sadly, it is a stat that's based on the length of the road, not normalized to VMT. so the more people on the road, clearly, the deadlier it is going to be.

the stat also doesn't take into account what makes it deadly, drunkards? ladders? mattress? poorly designed road?

so the question is, is that even a statistic that is worth looking at?

In addition to the problems you mentioned, it also does not distinguish between the Katy Freeway portion and the Baytown/East Freeway portion (let alone between the expanded part of the Katy Freeway, west of the Loop, and the unexpanded portion, inside the Loop).  So, no, not worth looking at, but thanks for posting the info.

Edited August 4, 2021 by Houston19514

[samagon]

8 minutes ago, Houston19514 said:

In addition to the problems you mentioned, it also does not distinguish between the Katy Freeway portion and the Baytown/East Freeway portion (let alone between the expanded part of the Katy Freeway, west of the Loop, and the unexpanded portion, inside the Loop).  So, no, not worth looking at, but thanks for posting the info.

well, it's not a new problem, or a problem with that specific report referenced by that specific article. the math they use for dangerous freeways is always based on the length of the freeway normalized to 100 miles (so for instance, if i45 in Harris is 70 miles, and there's 36 fatalities in Harris, then that's where they get the 5x.x fatalities per 100 miles.

Edited August 4, 2021 by samagon

[Houston19514]

5 minutes ago, samagon said:

well, it's not a new problem, or a problem with that specific report referenced by that specific article. the math they use for dangerous freeways is always based on the length of the freeway normalized to 100 miles (so for instance, if i45 in Harris is 70 miles, and there's 36 fatalities in Harris, then that's where they get the 5x.x fatalities per 100 miles.

Yeah, which tells us next to nothing.

[HNathoo]

Museum Park Super Neighborhood wrote a letter in support of the project:

 

Texas Department of Transportation, Attn: TPP-UTP, P.O. Box 149217, Austin, TX 78714-9217 Submitted via email to: UTP-PublicComments@txdot.gov August 3, 2021

RE: Draft 2022 Unified Transportation Program (UTP) North Houston Highway Improvement Project (NHHIP) Public comment supporting ongoing funding for the NHHIP TO: Texas Transportation Commission

FROM: Museum Park Super Neighborhood Kathleen O’Reilly, President, president@museumparksn.org

 

Thank you for the opportunity to comment on this important project, Museum Park Super Neighborhood supports ongoing funding and agrees that it provides many benefits to the region, and to Museum Park, centrally located in Segment 3. Midtown is our immediate neighbor, with Wheeler Station truly being the center of our wheel so we hold the opportunities of providing connecting bridges including highly enhanced pedestrian/ bike amenities and suppressing the roadway as very high priorities.

These priorities are defined in the Museum Park H-GAC Livable Center Study (LCS). Museum Park Livable Centers Planning Study | Houston-Galveston Area Council (H-GAC). The LCS included robust community engagement with central themes clearly emerging of mobility, walkability, and reknitting the neighborhoods of Midtown, Museum Park, and Third Ward through the multiple crossings created with suppression of U59/69, and an important element of crafting Houston’s Cultural Trail. This Trail will connect our diverse cultural and educational institutions, through the Museum District to Hermann Park and Emancipation Park, a need that becomes more apparent and important every day.

Reconnecting the two major employment centers north and south of Museum Park, Downtown and Texas Medical Center, through these same connecting bridges is an opportunity that can’t be overstated. The Innovation District and The Ion add technology, and the people that the Innovation District will add to the mix, people who list walkability and quality of life as key components of where they want to live and work.

We believe this effort can be transformational in many ways. In Museum Park, the resulting bikeways and walkways created by bridges in immediate proximity to METRO’s Wheeler Station will connect Downtown and Texas Medical Center. the Museum District, Hermann Park, and will be multi-modal transit hubs for Rice University, Texas Southern University, and The ION.

The planned bridges in Museum Park will provide pedestrian enhancements with a goal of visionary landmark features in Houston’s core. We appreciate the recognition of their importance, and the commitment by TXDoT to make sure these crossings are all that they need to be, as a part of this monumental project.

We appreciate the decades of work that TXDoT has put into this enormous effort and the extensive public engagement. We look forward to improvements in this dangerous section of IH-45, with the purpose and promise of the Project to improve safety and operations, allay congestion, improve mobility, expand transit, cycling, pedestrian and other modes, provide an emergency evacuation route, improve storm-water management, support local and regional growth, while mitigating the Project’s impact on housing, adjacent neighborhoods, and the environment.

[Texasota]

Oh hey, the neighborhood with zero negative impacts and only improvements supports it. That's so weird.

[HNathoo]

20 minutes ago, Texasota said:

Oh hey, the neighborhood with zero negative impacts and only improvements supports it. That's so weird.

Have there been any neighborhood associations coming out against the project? Midtown, downtown, eado, 5th ward, independence heights, etc?

[samagon]

17 hours ago, HNathoo said:

Have there been any neighborhood associations coming out against the project? Midtown, downtown, eado, 5th ward, independence heights, etc?

pretty specific question. 

there's a mayor of a pretty populous city that this interstate runs through, which has a lot of neighborhoods in it, that has come out against the approved design of the project.

there's a judge of a pretty populous county that this interstate runs through, which also has a lot of neighborhoods in it, that has also come out against the approved design, has even gone so far as to sue TXDoT over the entire affair.

the National DoT has issued many statements which can be characterized as being against the project.

but you want letters from officials that represent specific neighborhood associations?

heck, based on the previous 2 pages of arguments, can we even consider that a letter penned by the president of a neighborhood association is what the residents of that association want?

Edited August 5, 2021 by samagon

[Houston19514]

1 hour ago, samagon said:

pretty specific question. 

there's a mayor of a pretty populous city that this interstate runs through, which has a lot of neighborhoods in it, that has come out against the approved design of the project.

there's a judge of a pretty populous county that this interstate runs through, which also has a lot of neighborhoods in it, that has also come out against the approved design, has even gone so far as to sue TXDoT over the entire affair.

the National DoT has issued many statements which can be characterized as being against the project.

but you want letters from officials that represent specific neighborhood associations?

heck, based on the previous 2 pages of arguments, can we even consider that a letter penned by the president of a neighborhood association is what the residents of that association want?

So, is the answer to the question, "no"?

[samagon]

4 minutes ago, Houston19514 said:

So, is the answer to the question, "no"?

the answer to the question is as pointless as the question. 

Edited August 5, 2021 by samagon

[texan]

1 hour ago, samagon said:

pretty specific question. 

there's a mayor of a pretty populous city that this interstate runs through, which has a lot of neighborhoods in it, that has come out against the approved design of the project.

there's a judge of a pretty populous county that this interstate runs through, which also has a lot of neighborhoods in it, that has also come out against the approved design, has even gone so far as to sue TXDoT over the entire affair.

the National DoT has issued many statements which can be characterized as being against the project.

but you want letters from officials that represent specific neighborhood associations?

heck, based on the previous 2 pages of arguments, can we even consider that a letter penned by the president of a neighborhood association is what the residents of that association want?

It's my understanding that Mayor Turner is against the design of segments 1 and 2, but mostly approves of segment 3 albeit with some modifications. In a presentation to the H-GAC, the city even proposes to move forward now but make the slight changes (mostly parks/greenspace, connections, etc.).

https://www.houstontx.gov/planning/nhhip/docs_pdfs/Commissioner Ryan - NHHIP - Letter & Technical Appendix.pdf

https://www.houstontx.gov/planning/nhhip/docs_pdfs/TPC Presentation April 2020.pdf

[Houston19514]

22 hours ago, Texasota said:

Oh hey, the neighborhood with zero negative impacts and only improvements supports it. That's so weird.

Zero negative impacts?  Hardly.  Properties are being taken, streets are being closed. Mexican consulate moved out. Not to mention the negative impacts that come with the years-long construction process...

To be clear, I'm not suggesting the negatives outweighs the positives.  Far from it.  

Edited August 5, 2021 by Houston19514

[Naviguessor]

…the depressed highway with cap park, instead of a raised structure with with whatever underneath would be all that it would take for me to support the idea, if I lived in that neighborhood.  I can see why they support it.  And I’m sure the President of the association does speak for the m the interested consensus of the neighborhood. That’s what he’s elected to do. 

[Houston19514]

10 minutes ago, Naviguessor said:

…the depressed highway with cap park, instead of a raised structure with with whatever underneath would be all that it would take for me to support the idea, if I lived in that neighborhood.  I can see why they support it.  And I’m sure the President of the association does speak for the m the interested consensus of the neighborhood. That’s what he’s elected to do. 

I completely agree with that, and I think the same balance applies to the section running behind the GRB. 

[j_cuevas713]

2 hours ago, texan said:

It's my understanding that Mayor Turner is against the design of segments 1 and 2, but mostly approves of segment 3 albeit with some modifications. In a presentation to the H-GAC, the city even proposes to move forward now but make the slight changes (mostly parks/greenspace, connections, etc.).

https://www.houstontx.gov/planning/nhhip/docs_pdfs/Commissioner Ryan - NHHIP - Letter & Technical Appendix.pdf

https://www.houstontx.gov/planning/nhhip/docs_pdfs/TPC Presentation April 2020.pdf

I fully support the city on this. The alternatives are so much better than what TxDOT wants to do. They could care less about the community and more about the jobs this will create in the short term. 

[texan]

17 minutes ago, j_cuevas713 said:

I fully support the city on this. The alternatives are so much better than what TxDOT wants to do. They could care less about the community and more about the jobs this will create in the short term. 

Agreed. Hopefully the city and TxDOT converge on their ideas for segment 3. I really do think the city's vision for segment three has the ability to strengthen the urban core of Houston to an incredible degree and give it the ability to become one of the premier urban areas in the country. The new development all of the new parkland would spur is just crazy to think about.

http://www.houstontx.gov/planning/nhhip/east/public-meeting-east-side.pdf

http://www.houstontx.gov/planning/nhhip/north/Public Meeting_North Side_Final Rev.pdf

http://www.houstontx.gov/planning/nhhip/west/presentation-west.pdf

http://www.houstontx.gov/planning/nhhip/midtown/public-open-house-midtown.pdf

[HNathoo]

5 hours ago, samagon said:

pretty specific question. 

there's a mayor of a pretty populous city that this interstate runs through, which has a lot of neighborhoods in it, that has come out against the approved design of the project.

there's a judge of a pretty populous county that this interstate runs through, which also has a lot of neighborhoods in it, that has also come out against the approved design, has even gone so far as to sue TXDoT over the entire affair.

the National DoT has issued many statements which can be characterized as being against the project.

but you want letters from officials that represent specific neighborhood associations?

heck, based on the previous 2 pages of arguments, can we even consider that a letter penned by the president of a neighborhood association is what the residents of that association want?

It was more about the local impacts, which are being spun as negative by those against the project. But when you actually ask the neighborhoods, they seem to want this. These are the guys being impacted by the perceived pollution, flooding, construction, traffic, displacement, etc. 

I don't generally agree with the way TXDOT has done things, but if the option is to build it as-is versus not build it, I hope they choose to build.

[j_cuevas713]

46 minutes ago, texan said:

Agreed. Hopefully the city and TxDOT converge on their ideas for segment 3. I really do think the city's vision for segment three has the ability to strengthen the urban core of Houston to an incredible degree and give it the ability to become one of the premier urban areas in the country. The new development all of the new parkland would spur is just crazy to think about.

http://www.houstontx.gov/planning/nhhip/east/public-meeting-east-side.pdf

http://www.houstontx.gov/planning/nhhip/north/Public Meeting_North Side_Final Rev.pdf

http://www.houstontx.gov/planning/nhhip/west/presentation-west.pdf

http://www.houstontx.gov/planning/nhhip/midtown/public-open-house-midtown.pdf

WOW! I AGREE! We would have one of the busiest urban centers in the country for sure!

[samagon]

59 minutes ago, HNathoo said:

It was more about the local impacts, which are being spun as negative by those against the project. But when you actually ask the neighborhoods, they seem to want this. These are the guys being impacted by the perceived pollution, flooding, construction, traffic, displacement, etc. 

I don't generally agree with the way TXDOT has done things, but if the option is to build it as-is versus not build it, I hope they choose to build.

this project is going to shape our city for the next 40-50 years, FOMO shouldn't be the driver of that shape. 

I love the grand designs the city has put forth for how to beautify the core around segment 3, but that doesn't fix the flaws with segments 1, 2 and yes, even segment 3.

as far as local impacts, there's a lot of members of the communities you referenced above (5th ward, 3rd ward, 2nd ward, Independence Heights, and others), and it's very true you can find members of those communities that are for these projects, but there are even more from those communities that are speaking out against this project, just because the President of those super neighborhoods haven't published a letter doesn't mean those voices don't matter.

TXDoT should be held to a higher standard for our city.

Edited August 5, 2021 by samagon

[j.33]

For comments regarding the capping of the freeway and adding open space in EaDo, remember that is conceptual and TXDOT will not fund that. TXDOT is relying on private investment or other entities to do the amenities on top of the freeway. Renderings sure look nice, but that it is not guaranteed. TXDOT makes you want to think that is how it will end up looking like...

Yes, TXDOT will burry the freeway, but what goes above it can still change.

Edited August 6, 2021 by Justin Welling

[Montrose1100]

13 hours ago, Justin Welling said:

For comments regarding the capping of the freeway and adding open space in EaDo, remember that is conceptual and TXDOT will not fund that. TXDOT is relying on private investment or other entities to do the amenities on top of the freeway. Renderings sure look nice, but that it is not guaranteed. TXDOT makes you want to think that is how it will end up looking like...

Yes, TXDOT will burry the freeway, but what goes above it can still change.

Burying it is still a huge win.

[Naviguessor]

Furthermore, the Caps in midtown are far more modest than along the east side of downtown or over I-45, are associated with the MetroRail lines, are adjacent to The Ion blocks and part of planned streetscape improvements in the that district.  I'd say that these are very likely to happen.  Which would, also, add to that win.    

[HNathoo]

57 minutes ago, Montrose1100 said:

Burying it is still a huge win.

Agreed. Hopefully common sense prevails. 

[sapo2367]

15 hours ago, Justin Welling said:

For comments regarding the capping of the freeway and adding open space in EaDo, remember that is conceptual and TXDOT will not fund that. TXDOT is relying on private investment or other entities to do the amenities on top of the freeway. Renderings sure look nice, but that it is not guaranteed. TXDOT makes you want to think that is how it will end up looking like...

Yes, TXDOT will burry the freeway, but what goes above it can still change.

The city is at least talking about making this space into a 'green loop' around downtown, which would be a transformational project if it ever gets built. Of course it is easy to make these fancy sketches and a lot harder to actually get it built, but seeing the direction the city is going right now (focus on green space, walkability, alternative transportation), its a real possibility this could get done.

http://swamplot.com/a-roundabout-first-look-at-the-green-loop-the-newest-idea-for-a-houston-ring-road-around-downtown/2017-11-09/

[X.R.]

2 hours ago, Montrose1100 said:

Burying it is still a huge win.

IF all they did was buried the freeways with no expansion, I'd be on board. And I would agree, it would be a massive win. I was on the fence about the expansion aspect, tbh, I could see both sides.

But after working with clients these last two years, I think expansion of the highways is premature based on the change the pandemic brought and continues to bring to the workplace. Work From Home, at least in part, is now ingrained into almost all industries in Houston. Hell, multiple oil and gas plants in Houston are allowing non-essential people to WFH at least once a week. Law firms too. And those two are the oldest, most curmudgeonly industries yet WFH is here. I've had recent interviews where I would get a bonus if I promised to come into the office at least 3 times a week. Its crazy, but its here to stay. I believe relying on pre-COVID data to justify expansion is a hard sell, the paradigm is going to be different for the next few years. Traffic has been permanently changed.

The burying would help downtown transition from a strictly business oriented area into a neighborhood, someplace you wouldn't mind going to on the days when you technically were working from home. Maybe to visit a coffee shop you like, or chill in one of these green spaces. And like @sapo2367said, given the direction the city leadership is going, and how Houston has some incredibly generous and wealthy families who regularly donate to park space, I could see some of these caps getting parks. Hey, at the very least, it'll increase the property values for their rental properties 😂

Edited August 6, 2021 by X.R.

[samagon]

25 minutes ago, X.R. said:

IF all they did was buried the freeways with no expansion, I'd be on board. And I would agree, it would be a massive win. I was on the fence about the expansion aspect, tbh, I could see both sides.

But after working with clients these last two years, I think expansion of the highways is premature based on the change the pandemic brought and continues to bring to the workplace. Work From Home, at least in part, is now ingrained into almost all industries in Houston. Hell, multiple oil and gas plants in Houston are allowing non-essential people to WFH at least once a week. Law firms too. And those two are the oldest, most curmudgeonly industries yet WFH is here. I've had recent interviews where I would get a bonus if I promised to come into the office at least 3 times a week. Its crazy, but its here to stay. I believe relying on pre-COVID data to justify expansion is a hard sell, the paradigm is going to be different for the next few years. Traffic has been permanently changed.

The burying would help downtown transition from a strictly business oriented area into a neighborhood, someplace you wouldn't mind going to on the days when you technically were working from home. Maybe to visit a coffee shop you like, or chill in one of these green spaces. And like @sapo2367said, given the direction the city leadership is going, and how Houston has some incredibly generous and wealthy families who regularly donate to park space, I could see some of these caps getting parks. Hey, at the very least, it'll increase the property values for their rental properties 😂

I just started going back to work, 3 weeks ago. only once a week though.

parking garage is quite empty. I can park on the first floor that doesn't have reserved spaces, where previously I had to go 5 extra floors up to get to a parking spot pre pandemic.

and right now is just heaping onto that with delta being a thing. it's only a very short time before companies that have gone back to the office will switch back to remote.

I mean, don't get me wrong, actual working together in person is extremely valuable.

but man, traffic sure does seem to be back to pre-pandemic levels.

[Big E]

On 8/5/2021 at 3:49 PM, samagon said:

t's very true you can find members of those communities that are for these projects, but there are even more from those communities that are speaking out against this project, just because the President of those super neighborhoods haven't published a letter doesn't mean those voices don't matter.

Statements made without evidence can be dismissed without evidence. So you say that there are more people against than for this project? Prove it. Nobody has done anything like a referendum to actually gage public support for the project.

 

On 8/6/2021 at 11:52 AM, X.R. said:

IF all they did was buried the freeways with no expansion, I'd be on board. And I would agree, it would be a massive win. I was on the fence about the expansion aspect, tbh, I could see both sides.

But after working with clients these last two years, I think expansion of the highways is premature based on the change the pandemic brought and continues to bring to the workplace. Work From Home, at least in part, is now ingrained into almost all industries in Houston. Hell, multiple oil and gas plants in Houston are allowing non-essential people to WFH at least once a week. Law firms too. And those two are the oldest, most curmudgeonly industries yet WFH is here. I've had recent interviews where I would get a bonus if I promised to come into the office at least 3 times a week. Its crazy, but its here to stay. I believe relying on pre-COVID data to justify expansion is a hard sell, the paradigm is going to be different for the next few years. Traffic has been permanently changed.

The burying would help downtown transition from a strictly business oriented area into a neighborhood, someplace you wouldn't mind going to on the days when you technically were working from home. Maybe to visit a coffee shop you like, or chill in one of these green spaces. And like @sapo2367said, given the direction the city leadership is going, and how Houston has some incredibly generous and wealthy families who regularly donate to park space, I could see some of these caps getting parks. Hey, at the very least, it'll increase the property values for their rental properties 😂

This pandemic won't last forever. Businesses are trying to move back into spaces (Dallas, for instance, is leading the way here), Delta strain be damned, with many taking advantage of the high vacancies and low rates to get large spaces for cheap, and it seems at least workers would rather move back into their offices, if only because its makes working together easier and more efficient and there are businesses forging ahead and renting space, like the one that is the subject of this article. Keep in mind that Houston was hit harder by the pandemic than most other metro areas in the U.S.; Houston's office vacancy rate is 24.1%, the highest in the country, and a lot of that has to do with the collapse of the oil industry...again.

Traffic is already back to pre-pandemic levels in most cities. I remember back in the early pandemic months when roads were literally empty. Now, its pretty much where it was prior to the pandemic.

Edited August 9, 2021 by Big E

[samagon]

11 hours ago, Big E said:

Statements made without evidence can be dismissed without evidence. So you say that there are more people against than for this project? Prove it. Nobody has done anything like a referendum to actually gage public support for the project.

in that we can both agree, I don't think I've even seen a public opinion poll (and certainly not a poll broken down by location), which essentially means that knife cuts both ways because there's just as much proof of people being for this project as the other way around.

I know I've seen more people with signs marching against this project than I have seen people with signs marching for this project. which at the end of the day is about as scientific to show public opinion of the project as is a letter from the President of a super neighborhood to show that the constituents of that super neighborhood are for the project. all we have is anecdotal evidence.

I fully agree regarding the traffic levels being 'back to normal', even considering office vacancy, makes me wonder what people are doing during the day while they're supposed to be working? 

I also suspect that the statistic for office vacancy in Houston is for the entire city, not just the CBD, and I'd venture a guess that the CBD is harder hit from that standpoint. looking at that article though, in Feb 2020 vacancy was nearly 22%, so it's not like the pandemic pushed Houston over some cliff, we're talking a 2% shift year over year. which doesn't necessarily tell the whole story, vacancy as per the article, I'm taking to mean office space that no one is leasing. it doesn't really go into what companies are offering more of a hybrid approach these days. 2 days in the office and 3 days at home (for instance). 

I agree that businesses want to take as much advantage of office vacancies to get better rates, but I don't necessarily agree that workers would rather move back into their offices, I've read a lot of articles to the contrary. MOP want people back in the office because they still haven't learned how to measure and excite their workforce, but the actual employees? they want to WFH. https://www.marketplace.org/2020/12/09/most-who-work-from-home-want-to-keep-doing-it-study-finds-will-they-be-able-to/

Edited August 9, 2021 by samagon