I-45 Rebuild (North Houston Highway Improvement Project)

[zaphod]

Does anyone know why it is necessary to widen I-45 North AND build the Hardy Toll Road extension? I assume planners and engineers took the completion (or non-completion) of either project into consideration in their traffic forecasts, right?

 

[wilcal]

59 minutes ago, zaphod said:

Does anyone know why it is necessary to widen I-45 North AND build the Hardy Toll Road extension? I assume planners and engineers took the completion (or non-completion) of either project into consideration in their traffic forecasts, right?

 

I think the Hardy extension is on indefinite hold. 

[zaphod]

Blah, so why did they start on the Elysian viaduct then?

From what I can tell, the proposed Hardy extension would only lead to the removal of maybe 4 or 5 houses and a couple of likely to be disused industrial structures.

Given the concerns about the I-45 expansion the Hardy extension would have lesser impacts but still achieve similar goals.

[Big E]

1 hour ago, zaphod said:

Blah, so why did they start on the Elysian viaduct then?

From what I can tell, the proposed Hardy extension would only lead to the removal of maybe 4 or 5 houses and a couple of likely to be disused industrial structures.

Given the concerns about the I-45 expansion the Hardy extension would have lesser impacts but still achieve similar goals.

Even if its completed as designed, the Hardy Toll Road extension will not achieve the same goals as the 1-45 expansion. Extending it will take pressure off the loop and the other freeways going into downtown, because traffic will be able to take the tollway all the way in rather than being forced onto the loop and then either 1-45 or 1-69 to get downtown. So, for commuters who already make use of the tollway, it will be a boon, and it will take pressure off the other inner loop freeways, but it will do nothing to alleviate the traffic nightmare and dilapidated mess that is 1-45 north of the loop, it does nothing about the Pierce Elevated, and it won't bury the freeway on the southside of downtown.

[Tumbleweed_Tx]

5 hours ago, zaphod said:

Blah, so why did they start on the Elysian viaduct then?

 

it looked like it was about to fall down.

[Houston19514]

On 5/15/2021 at 7:19 PM, wilcal said:

I think the Hardy extension is on indefinite hold. 

According to HCTRA's website, construction of the Hardy extension lanes is scheduled to start in September of this year.

[samagon]

another article on Chron:

https://www.houstonchronicle.com/opinion/editorials/article/Editorial-I-45-must-not-go-forward-over-16068321.php

I didn't know that of the HGAC approval, every one that voted against was closer to the city, and everyone that voted for was from outside.

[wilcal]

3 hours ago, Houston19514 said:

According to HCTRA's website, construction of the Hardy extension lanes is scheduled to start in September of this year.

Chronicle transportation reporter said it was shelved as of last September 

 

I'll reach out to him and ask if he knows if that has changed. 

 

[ADCS]

On 5/15/2021 at 7:19 PM, wilcal said:

I think the Hardy extension is on indefinite hold. 

Yep, HCTRA is run by Harris County, which is now run by Lina Hidalgo. The Hardy Extension is likely permanently dead.

[Houston19514]

55 minutes ago, wilcal said:

Chronicle transportation reporter said it was shelved as of last September 

 

I'll reach out to him and ask if he knows if that has changed. 

 

"Shelved it" rather overstates the situation, I think.  Last year (around May, I think) "HCTRA received authorization from Commissioners Court to suspend development of Phase II to allow for reevaluation of any proposed project within the corridor."

In December 2020, Commissioner's Court authorized HCTRA to seek statements of interest and qualifications . . . [regarding] planning and conceptual design for the toll road extension.

In January 2021, Commissioner's Court authorized agreements with Union Pacific in connection with the development of the downtown connector.

Edited May 17, 2021 by Houston19514

[wilcal]

3 minutes ago, Houston19514 said:

"Shelved it" rather overstates the situation, I think.  Last year (around May, I think) "HCTRA received authorization from Commissioners Court to suspend development of Phase II to allow for reevaluation of any proposed project within the corridor."

In December 2020, Commissioner's Court authorized HCTRA to seek statements of interest and qualifications . . . [regarding] planning and conceptual design for the toll road extension.

In January 2021, Commissioner's Court authorized agreements with Union Pacific in connection with the development of the downtown connector.

My only comment is that some of the supporting work for the overpasses for crosstreets over the railroad tracks have already been completed. It is possibly that they are completing the work that actually benefits the locals and not the extension itself, but of course I don't know that for sure. 

[Houston19514]

16 minutes ago, wilcal said:

My only comment is that some of the supporting work for the overpasses for crosstreets over the railroad tracks have already been completed. It is possibly that they are completing the work that actually benefits the locals and not the extension itself, but of course I don't know that for sure. 

No, the items I mentioned were for Phase II of the project, which is the construction of the tollway lanes.  The sorts of items you are referencing were Phase I projects.

[X.R.]

It seems like TxDOT has been sniffing around and trying acquire land for the portions of this project that require more land. From a legal POV, how fun is it to watch local, state, and feds all in a legal fight (answer: so much fun because it isn't the most frequent thing): 

https://twitter.com/samjmintz/status/1399813701176287236?s=20

Edited June 1, 2021 by X.R.

[samagon]

the letter says they want to work together to see if they can continue to pursue contracts. the letter from March 4 is very clear that any contract solicitations should be paused.

this is the most nicely worded way of saying 'hey, we see what you're doing, so stop'.

[X.R.]

Them Fed boys and girls decided they weren't playing around. Told em to stop everything in a "did you not hear us the first time?" type-a-way: 

 

 

Edited June 23, 2021 by X.R.

[samagon]

wow. that's a bit more strongly worded.

I mean, it TXDOT just assuming that they can muscle their way through this? be very slow to deliver the requested data to the federal authorities, and all the while acquiring the land, then oops, well, I guess we're too far along now to stop, may as well finish the project.

I'm suddenly reminded of the horrible state of Louisiana's interstate highways when the federal government withheld funding because they didn't change the drinking age. is that what we're headed towards if TXDOT doesn't comply?

 

Edited June 23, 2021 by samagon

[Houston19514]

1 hour ago, samagon said:

wow. that's a bit more strongly worded.

I mean, it TXDOT just assuming that they can muscle their way through this? be very slow to deliver the requested data to the federal authorities, and all the while acquiring the land, then oops, well, I guess we're too far along now to stop, may as well finish the project.

I'm suddenly reminded of the horrible state of Louisiana's interstate highways when the federal government withheld funding because they didn't change the drinking age. is that what we're headed towards if TXDOT doesn't comply?

 

Ooohhhh, the FHWA "requests that the pause apply to right-of-way acquisition..."   That is some STRONG language.   🥱

Edited June 23, 2021 by Houston19514

[samagon]

20 minutes ago, Houston19514 said:

Ooohhhh, the FHWA "requests that the pause apply to right-of-way acquisition..."   That is some STRONG language.   🥱

more strongly worded than the previous letters, yes. 🤷‍♂️

Edited June 23, 2021 by samagon

[Avossos]

This is silly... just let them get started so it can be over sooner.

[dbigtex56]

1 hour ago, Avossos said:

This is silly... just let them get started so it can be over sooner.

Better yet, just cancel the damn thing, and get it over even sooner than that.

[Houston19514]

3 hours ago, samagon said:

more strongly worded than the previous letters, yes. 🤷‍♂️

It was less ambiguous than the previous letter;   I'll give you that much.

[burt]

I can't imagine that this project gets cancelled all together, but if it does (or is significantly scaled back) what happens to the land and properties that TxDOT has already purchased? I believe they already paid a hefty sum (~$90MM) to the Housing Authority for Clayton Homes. If that property (and others like it) are no longer required for this project, is there a clawback mechanism for TxDOT to recoup those funds? 

[samagon]

specifically with Clayton Homes, as I remember reading here, the city was not at all displeased about Clayton Homes going away, so that land might end up being a detention pond/park area regardless of this projects future.

I suspect it they can't build the realignment, with other land they've already acquired, they'd probably try to get it back out there as taxable properties.

as far as the overall project, I personally hope they are sent back to the drawing board to develop the 610 east loop as i45 bypass (maybe even take over the BW8 east for this task), and then i45 inside the loop becomes a business route, and that's an end to the inner loop i45 renovation.

at that point, I'd even say they should go as far as to introduce a congestion charge to any commercial traffic that chooses to use the business route of i45 as a through route (aka, an 18 wheeler going from i45 in Galveston to Conroe, if they take i45 through town they are charged a congestion fee, if they take 610 east, there's no charge).

reality is though, that there's been a lot of investment on this project already, I doubt it goes away completely, but I guess it depends, if some actuarial table says it's going to cost more to make the current design fit the federal standards than it would to completely scrap the project and move on to somewhere else, then they might just scrap it and try a different design entirely.

Edited June 24, 2021 by samagon

[MaxConcrete]

Now we'll need to await the response of the TxDOT commission. Will they leave the $5 billion funding commitment in place, or will the project funding be reallocated elsewhere?

I'm not in a position to know anything, but there may be some clues. At the June 10 NCTCOG meeting (NCTCOG is the Dallas-Fort Worth equivalent of H-GAC), NCTCOG director Morris stated

"We have a major push working with TxDOT headquarters to advance projects in Dallas-Fort Worth as other big projects in the rest of the state do not move forward. So, [name] and Mo and Carl and John and our office are working hard to get really big projects slotted for any opportunities that either Washington or Austin wish to advance (transportation projects)."

(Mo is the TxDOT Dallas director, Carl is the TxDOT Fort Worth director)

NHHIP is the only project I'm aware of that is not moving forward. Morris is certainly in a position to have "inside information", and of course DFW would love to harvest money from Houston. Also, the TxDOT commission has an executive session scheduled before its regular monthly meeting on June 30. I've never seen an executive session scheduled before the main meeting, which suggests to me that something may be going on. There could be a response already developed, and the meeting could be to coordinate all the members, including Commissioner Ryan from Houston. However, any new decisions in an executive session would probably not be made public immediately at the normal meeting.

https://www.txdot.gov/inside-txdot/administration/commission/2021-meetings.html

 

[j_cuevas713]

19 minutes ago, MaxConcrete said:

Now we'll need to await the response of the TxDOT commission. Will they leave the $5 billion funding commitment in place, or will the project funding be reallocated elsewhere?

I'm not in a position to know anything, but there may be some clues. At the June 10 NCTCOG meeting (NCTCOG is the Dallas-Fort Worth equivalent of H-GAC), NCTCOG director Morris stated

"We have a major push working with TxDOT headquarters to advance projects in Dallas-Fort Worth as other big projects in the rest of the state do not move forward. So, [name] and Mo and Carl and John and our office are working hard to get really big projects slotted for any opportunities that either Washington or Austin wish to advance (transportation projects)."

(Mo is the TxDOT Dallas director, Carl is the TxDOT Fort Worth director)

NHHIP is the only project I'm aware of that is not moving forward. Morris is certainly in a position to have "inside information", and of course DFW would love to harvest money from Houston. Also, the TxDOT commission has an executive session scheduled before its regular monthly meeting on June 30. I've never seen an executive session scheduled before the main meeting, which suggests to me that something may be going on. There could be a response already developed, and the meeting could be to coordinate all the members, including Commissioner Ryan from Houston. However, any new decisions in an executive session would probably not be made public immediately at the normal meeting.

https://www.txdot.gov/inside-txdot/administration/commission/2021-meetings.html

 

Let TxDOT go up north and ruin dallas. I'm totally ok with that. 

[MaxConcrete]

6 minutes ago, j_cuevas713 said:

Let TxDOT go up north and ruin dallas. I'm totally ok with that. 

In case you weren't aware, DFW builds more freeways and tollways than Houston and is better off economically than Houston. DFW has more job creation and more consistent job creation. In fact, they're almost always the #1 metro in the U.S. for job creation. Houston only ranks highly when oil prices are high. DFW has more population increase and attracts more domestic migrants (which is a sign that a city is attractive). DFW also has a more highly diversified economy including a much larger tech sector than Houston. DFW is often a viable candidate for national-level corporate expansions such as Amazon and Uber, but Houston is never a viable candidate.

More funding for DFW will mean more success for DFW.

[crock]

39 minutes ago, MaxConcrete said:

In case you weren't aware, DFW builds more freeways and tollways than Houston 

uh, except Dallas literally managed to kill their most recent downtown highway boondoggle and that failure is the exact reason TxDOT came here to push for the i45 reno.  

https://www.dmagazine.com/frontburner/2017/08/its-official-the-trinity-toll-road-is-dead/ 
 

[X.R.]

35 minutes ago, MaxConcrete said:

In case you weren't aware, DFW builds more freeways and tollways than Houston and is better off economically than Houston. DFW has more job creation and more consistent job creation. In fact, they're almost always the #1 metro in the U.S. for job creation. Houston only ranks highly when oil prices are high. DFW has more population increase and attracts more domestic migrants (which is a sign that a city is attractive). DFW also has a more highly diversified economy including a much larger tech sector than Houston. DFW is often a viable candidate for national-level corporate expansions such as Amazon and Uber, but Houston is never a viable candidate.

More funding for DFW will mean more success for DFW.

I lived in dallas for a while and still go up there for work sometimes. Most of those jobs are where companies can build full on campuses, so like plano/arlington/richardson/etc so yeah, they need the highways. Downtown Dallas is ghost town during the day with nothing going on, which isn't helped by the fact that jerry world and the rangers are DWI-fest 30 mins west of the city and FC Dallas is in the burbs to the North and is consistently one of the underfunded teams in the league (because no one goes to those games in part because its in the mdidle of nowhere). I say all that because normally those types of games would help businesses flourish in a downtown and they aren't in downtown, so downtown and uptown stay empty during the weekdays. Again, the highways help allow for these type of spread out development. Shoutout to the Mavs and Stars for cultivating a hell of an experience at American Airlines. Speaking of downtown, didn't they actually kill a TXDot highway project AND build Hyde Park (which is awesome) and is basically the model for cap parks in America?

Everyone loves Bishop Arts, the gentrifying Oak Cliff, the M Streets, Knox-henderson, white rock lake, Highland Park, etc but its because those places are walkable and are actual communities. And my friends in the actual city are never like "we love Las Colinas, Plano, Arlington, and Garland!" (the places where these corporate campuses are) because they are your normal car-dependent burbs. I really enjoy Dallas, but Houston and Dallas are just different. I'm happy they are getting more money to develop those highways because they need it, they move a ton of people. 

[Houston19514]

10 minutes ago, crock said:

uh, except Dallas literally managed to kill their most recent downtown highway boondoggle and that failure is the exact reason TxDOT came here to push for the i45 reno.  

https://www.dmagazine.com/frontburner/2017/08/its-official-the-trinity-toll-road-is-dead/ 
 

What a bunch of nonsense.  Dallas's cancellation of the ill-conceived Trinity tollway has nothing whatsoever to do with TxDOT's plans for the I45 reno.  The Trinity Tollway was not a TxDOT project.  (They have plenty of their own work going on in Dallas, including the rebuilding and expansion of I-35 all the way through town.)

Edited June 24, 2021 by Houston19514

[X.R.]

Seems like its on hold for real, unless TxDot is saying one thing and doing another (surprise!): 

 

Edited June 24, 2021 by X.R.