Mimosa Terrace: Condominiums At 2240 Mimosa Dr.

[db650]

So no condos in their portfolio? It's very different than most of the retail/commercial or even some of the SFH projects they built. It makes the project less certain than if established condo developers were behind it.

[Angostura]

I'm sure there's a very specific market for this kind of building at this price point, but it seems... expensive? There's only about $100k in dirt per unit, so if you subtract that out, it's something like $660/s.f. 

 

This is something like 2-2.5x the density of a typical townhouse 6-pack (in both square footage and dwelling units per acre). If the market-clearing density for high-demand neighborhoods reaches the level where this kind of project becomes common, I think the pricing to would need to come down to the $300-400/sf level (a little above current wood-frame townhouse prices).

[Houston19514]

23 minutes ago, Angostura said:

I'm sure there's a very specific market for this kind of building at this price point, but it seems... expensive? There's only about $100k in dirt per unit, so if you subtract that out, it's something like $660/s.f. 

 

This is something like 2-2.5x the density of a typical townhouse 6-pack (in both square footage and dwelling units per acre). If the market-clearing density for high-demand neighborhoods reaches the level where this kind of project becomes common, I think the pricing to would need to come down to the $300-400/sf level (a little above current wood-frame townhouse prices).

 

The prices seem to be pretty well in line with comparable mid- and high-rise buildings in Houston.

 

FWIW, the four units that are listed on HAR are listed at $611.61, $694.20, $659.97, and $949.71 (penthouse) per square foot.

Edited June 10, 2019 by Houston19514

[Angostura]

2 hours ago, Houston19514 said:

 

The prices seem to be pretty well in line with comparable mid- and high-rise buildings in Houston.

 

 

I think that's right, but I think it's because these buildings serve a very specific niche of the market, for which the added price per s.f. and maintenance fees are justified by convenience/security/service/etc. 

 

Currently the buyer who wants 3 BRs for ~$300/sf is well served by the TH/SFH market (depending on the neighborhood), but there may soon come a time in certain neighborhoods where it's impossible to hit that price point if each unit comes with 2000 s.f. of dirt. At that point, someone with a 10,000 sf lot to develop may choose to build 12 x 2500-sf condos instead of 5 or 6 2500-sf THs. 

[db650]

Need to compare apples to apples. How much more is concrete vs wood frame construction? The interior buildout is also very expensive vs builder grade finishes.

[Timoric]

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Edited July 12, 2019 by Timoric

[BeerNut]

3 hours ago, Timoric said:

The Cosmo, the Mimosa, what is next?

 

The Bellini 

[cspwal]

19 hours ago, Timoric said:

The Cosmo, the Mimosa, what is next?

 

The Old Fashioned

[KinkaidAlum]

Trump branded twin towers; The Moscow Mule and The White Russian.

[Luminare]

9 minutes ago, KinkaidAlum said:

Trump branded twin towers; The Moscow Mule and The White Russian.

 

Just don't put the "Kamikaze" next to these "twin towers", ok?

Edited June 11, 2019 by Luminare

[Highrise Tower]

[db650]

I think that’s an old rendering from the last version of this building. Any update on if they sold a single unit? I am worried about the viability of this building given that it failed to get much interest the last time around. I did hear that the builder wants to occupy an entire floor of this building but it won’t count for presales to get loan.

[Luminare]

-

 

Edited August 27, 2019 by Luminare

[BigFootsSocks]

9 hours ago, Luminare said:

-

 

Some of your best work my friend 

[db650]

Walked by the other night. 16 units and “breaking ground 2021.” Not sure if they sold any. The only progress since last year looks to be this new sign. 

[HoustonMidtown]

Units for sale on HAR 

https://www.har.com/homedetail/2240-mimosa-dr-3n-houston-tx-77019/15143619

 

https://www.har.com/homedetail/2240-mimosa-dr-ph-7w-houston-tx-77019/15327066

 

 

Edited January 16, 2021 by HoustonMidtown

[Angostura]

I know there's a market for these units at this price point, but the price per s.f. on these developments never ceases to amaze.

At $4.3M for 4300 sf, you're paying almost twice the going rate per s.f. for single-family houses on generously sized lots within a couple blocks. And for the $2600/month in condo fees, you could pay someone to pick up the mail and handle the yard work.

 

[astrohip]

1 hour ago, Angostura said:

I know there's a market for these units at this price point, but the price per s.f. on these developments never ceases to amaze.

At $4.3M for 4300 sf, you're paying almost twice the going rate per s.f. for single-family houses on generously sized lots within a couple blocks. And for the $2600/month in condo fees, you could pay someone to pick up the mail and handle the yard work.

 

Most people who move to condos don't do it for the money. It's not whether it's more or less than your SF residence was, it's "condo life".

As someone who made the house>condo move a couple years ago, I can tell you from talking to my fellow residents, there is not one single person who factored money into the equation. It's the lock & leave lifestyle, it's security concerns, it's having packages accepted for you 24/7, it's not having to worry about the roof or the A/C or the yard or the pool or floods... or anything.

Maybe at some price point, or in some parts of the country, condo vs SFH is a real debate. But in the upper end segment of Houston condos, it's a lifestyle choice, not a $$$ one.

Just my .02

[Angostura]

On 1/18/2021 at 12:13 PM, astrohip said:

Most people who move to condos don't do it for the money. It's not whether it's more or less than your SF residence was, it's "condo life".

As someone who made the house>condo move a couple years ago, I can tell you from talking to my fellow residents, there is not one single person who factored money into the equation. It's the lock & leave lifestyle, it's security concerns, it's having packages accepted for you 24/7, it's not having to worry about the roof or the A/C or the yard or the pool or floods... or anything.

Maybe at some price point, or in some parts of the country, condo vs SFH is a real debate. But in the upper end segment of Houston condos, it's a lifestyle choice, not a $$$ one.

Just my .02

 

I understand the dynamic, it's just the opposite of the way things work in (actually dense) cities where land value drives the economics. In places where 90% of the population lives in a multi-family building, where floor area ratios are seldom below 4.0, an apartment being more expensive than a standalone house would be unthinkable. 

I'm guessing the demand curve is very steep. Doing a very small number of these probably means each one is very profitable (that penthouse alone is probably a 7-figure profit to the developer), but once you get beyond the people for whom it's a lifestyle choice, the market-clearing price drops a lot.

 

 

 

[Houston19514]

Another thing to consider is how big of a house do people want?  If you don't want 3,000 square feet, your options in River Oaks are pretty limited. In the part of river Oaks between Shepherd and Kirby I only find 5, two of which are marketed for lot value.  The per square foot asking price of the other three:  

$641.03

$763.51

$570.38 (and probably needs updating, for most buyers)

If one wants to stay under 2,000 square feet (the size of the first Mimosa Terrace example), your only option in River Oaks is to buy a lot or a tear-down and build. In the area between Shepherd and Kirby that will run you anywhere from $825,000 to $1.9 Million.  For a 1,947 square foot residence (the size of the Mimosa Terrace example), that puts you at $423.73 - $975.86/square foot before construction.

I also don't think Houston's prices of condos vs single-family are particularly unusual compared to other cities.  It is almost certainly hyperbole to say that an apartment being more expensive (per square foot) than a standalone house would be unthinkable in other (actually dense) cities. For example, apartments selling for higher prices per square foot than nearby single-family residences in Chicago is clearly not unthinkable.

Edited January 19, 2021 by Houston19514

[db650]

The cost of concrete and steel construction  is also higher.

[Angostura]

On 1/19/2021 at 6:58 PM, Houston19514 said:

I also don't think Houston's prices of condos vs single-family are particularly unusual compared to other cities.  It is almost certainly hyperbole to say that an apartment being more expensive (per square foot) than a standalone house would be unthinkable in other (actually dense) cities. For example, apartments selling for higher prices per square foot than nearby single-family residences in Chicago is clearly not unthinkable.

 

Assuming steel-and-brick construction is $400/sf and stick-built SFH construction is $200/sf, you can calculate the breakeven floor-area-ratio for a given land value.  For condo FAR of 4.0 and SFH FAR of 1.0, land values above $270/sf would favor condo construction. There are very few places in Houston where dirt sells for that much.

Having lived in mid-rise condo buildings in a neighborhood in an (actually dense) city where that type of construction is typical, I can tell you I couldn't have afforded the same square footage in a standalone house.

FWIW, I love these kinds of buildings (4-6 story, <20 apartments), but staffing these kinds of buildings gets very expensive on a per-apartment basis. When I lived in 5-unit building w/ 24-hour doorman coverage the condo fees were brutal.

 

 

Edited January 28, 2021 by Angostura

[astrohip]

21 hours ago, Angostura said:

FWIW, I love these kinds of buildings (4-6 story, <20 apartments), but staffing these kinds of buildings gets very expensive on a per-apartment basis. When I lived in 5-unit building w/ 24-hour doorman coverage the condo fees were brutal.

 

 

Good point, and one condo buyers are becoming aware of. When we were condo shopping in 2018, our realtor (luckily, a close friend & condo expert himself) educated us on this. How a small building either lacks amenities, or they cost a fortune. How big buildings, maybe 100+ units, have issues of their own. We hit the sweet spot with 69 units. Large enough to have full amenities, not so big as to have traffic jams at the entrance.

[Urbannizer]

8 offers (not sure on the # of under contract vs. sold)

Summer start date

18-month construction timeline 

[toxtethogrady]

Residential of all kinds is going to sell, so I'm not surprised...

[db650]

On 4/6/2021 at 1:47 PM, Urbannizer said:

8 offers (not sure on the # of under contract vs. sold)

Summer start date

18-month construction timeline 

30 percent sold now. 8 offers implied 50 percent sold. Either they’re going backwards or use some creative language in their marketing before.

[Houston19514]

13 hours ago, db650 said:

30 percent sold now. 8 offers implied 50 percent sold. Either they’re going backwards or use some creative language in their marketing before.

Offers is not the same as "sold". 

[db650]

3 minutes ago, Houston19514 said:

Offers is not the same as "sold". 

Offers mean nothing. You can offer $5.00 for a unit. Reporting this metric is misleading and meaningless…that was my point. They’ve been trying to sell this building for about 5 years now. It’s not going well.

[Houston19514]

Just now, db650 said:

Offers mean nothing. You can offer $5.00 for a unit. Reporting this metric is misleading and meaningless…that was my point. They’ve been trying to sell this building for about 5 years now. It’s not going well.

I don't see it as misleading at all. And while not as meaningful as "sales", I don't think it's fair to say it's meaningless.  It's an indication of traffic and interest.

[db650]

1 minute ago, Houston19514 said:

I don't see it as misleading at all. And while not as meaningful as "sales", I don't think it's fair to say it's meaningless.  It's an indication of traffic and interest.

At one point, the builder bought an entire floor in this building. I wonder what percentage of the 30% is bought by the builder. Developers play all kind of games to show perceived interested in their properties, and "offers" is one of them. Offers don't indicate any interest because we don't know how serious they are. Why would you report an offer that ultimately gets rejected or doesn't go to contract? It's because you don't have actual sales under contract.