Hardy Toll Road Extension

[Houston19514]

The Quitman grade separation is scheduled to start next year (approximately April 2021). 

 

Construction of the Hardy extension is scheduled to start in September 2021.

[Triton]

4 hours ago, Houston19514 said:

The Quitman grade separation is scheduled to start next year (approximately April 2021). 

 

Construction of the Hardy extension is scheduled to start in September 2021.

You were right about Chron being wrong then.

[BigFootsSocks]

23 hours ago, Ross said:

Quitman already has a level crossing. Might be updated to an underpass at some point.

Yeah my bad that’s what I meant, couldn’t remember if it was an underpass or overpass

[tigereye]

Dug Begley says the county has shelved this project due to the current economic climate. 

 

 

Edited September 16, 2020 by tigereye

[Avossos]

18 minutes ago, tigereye said:

Dug Begley says the county has shelved this project due to the current economic climate. 

 

 

 

I'd like to see more direct confirmation that hardy extension is shelved... Like you said much work has been done already - millions and millions of dollars. It is aggrevating to me that *IF* this is actually on hold, there was no official announcement by HCTRA OR Houston Chronicle reporting...

[Houston19514]

FWIW, HCTRA's website has nothing about it being shelved.  But construction of the extension toll lanes is not scheduled to start until September 2021.  The other (preparatory) items on the time line seem to be going pretty much according to schedule.

 

http://www.hardyconnector.org/

[HoustonMidtown]

https://abc13.com/hardy-downtown-connector-extension-on-ih-610-north-loop-houston-traffic-harris-county-toll-road-authority/12895324/

 

[Montrose1100]

3 hours ago, HoustonMidtown said:

https://abc13.com/hardy-downtown-connector-extension-on-ih-610-north-loop-houston-traffic-harris-county-toll-road-authority/12895324/

 

Hope they'll fix the mess that is 45/Hardy @ 610 North. Taking Hardy to 59 works wonderfully since the onramp puts you directly on the 59 exit.

[Amlaham]

Is this really needed though? Does there need to be another highway coming into downtown? 

[NB_Brendan]

More induced demand! Yay!

[cspwal]

2 hours ago, Amlaham said:

Is this really needed though? Does there need to be another highway coming into downtown? 

If they complete it before starting on NHHIP it will be an important reliever of all the construction traffic. I wonder if it would be possible to include this connector in transit connections to the north side (particularly the airport)

[Triton]

12 hours ago, Amlaham said:

Is this really needed though? Does there need to be another highway coming into downtown? 

Nope. This is for the Woodlands folk.

[Naviguessor]

^^ It would be a good/slick link between Downtown and IAH.  Using it would avoid the S#hitshow gateways of I-45 & 59.   

[Triton]

4 hours ago, Naviguessor said:

^^ It would be a good/slick link between Downtown and IAH.  Using it would avoid the S#hitshow gateways of I-45 & 59.   

I've said this before and I'll say it again in this thread. 

The good slick link should be commuter rail from IAH into Post HTX. The rail line already exists and you would have to just build the connecting line west of IAH and then have it go underground approaching the runways and taxiways. It's what Denver does. It's something that we can do too. 

[Ross]

1 hour ago, Triton said:

I've said this before and I'll say it again in this thread. 

The good slick link should be commuter rail from IAH into Post HTX. The rail line already exists and you would have to just build the connecting line west of IAH and then have it go underground approaching the runways and taxiways. It's what Denver does. It's something that we can do too. 

There's no way that UP will let anyone use the lines outside the Loop. So, new rail lines would have to be built - where do you put them?

[samagon]

5 hours ago, Naviguessor said:

^^ It would be a good/slick link between Downtown and IAH.  Using it would avoid the S#hitshow gateways of I-45 & 59.   

are you suggesting the Hardy corridor is better gateway to Houston? 

I know the bar is low, but yeesh.

[tigereye]

On 3/1/2023 at 10:44 AM, Amlaham said:

Is this really needed though? Does there need to be another highway coming into downtown? 

For all 45 commuters, absolutely.

16 hours ago, Triton said:

Nope. This is for the Woodlands folk.

No, it’s for everyone that uses 45, which portions inside the Belt have not been expanded since the 90’s. It needs work more then any other freeway in Houston right now.

6 hours ago, Naviguessor said:

^^ It would be a good/slick link between Downtown and IAH.  Using it would avoid the S#hitshow gateways of I-45 & 59.   

THIS. But also this below.

1 hour ago, Triton said:

I've said this before and I'll say it again in this thread. 

The good slick link should be commuter rail from IAH into Post HTX. The rail line already exists and you would have to just build the connecting line west of IAH and then have it go underground approaching the runways and taxiways. It's what Denver does. It's something that we can do too. 

This city should be building commuter rail lines along most of these corridors, up Hardy, along Hempstead (for 290 commuters), along US 90 to Ft Bend. This city cannot be handcuffed by by rail companies like UP. Solutions need to be found for betterment of everyone in this city. Doing nothing is simply unacceptable. 

[Ross]

2 hours ago, tigereye said:

 

This city should be building commuter rail lines along most of these corridors, up Hardy, along Hempstead (for 290 commuters), along US 90 to Ft Bend. This city cannot be handcuffed by by rail companies like UP. Solutions need to be found for betterment of everyone in this city. Doing nothing is simply unacceptable. 

Cities cannot take railroad property. That's prevented by Federal law. And that's ignoring the huge negative impact that blocking freight rail would have. If Houston should be building rail, then someone will have to pony up the billions required to take people's houses and businesses.

[JClark54]

39 minutes ago, Ross said:

Cities cannot take railroad property. That's prevented by Federal law. And that's ignoring the huge negative impact that blocking freight rail would have. If Houston should be building rail, then someone will have to pony up the billions required to take people's houses and businesses.

The Houston complex was just confirmed as the most congested rail complex in the United States. The FRA found Houston's frequency of trains stopped at at-grade crossings -- not blockages as trains move through, mind you, but trains literally parked on streets  -- is double the nation's second worst complex.

No way Union Pacific and BNSF, the two major line owners in the complex, provide trackage rights to a party for which they aren't currently obligated. They can't effectively manage their own train scheduling, by their own admission to the STB. It'd take an act of Congress to force them to permit a new passenger train operation to use their lines. 

[Triton]

Wow... wow...

So we're willing to spend billions on highways by taking people's homes, demolishing massive multi-family complexes like Lofts at the Ballpark, and tearing down businesses but as soon as you mention rail, we can't do it guys! There's just no way!

I'm telling you now, 40 years later, we'll be wishing we had made these investments now. The city is only growing denser by the month because people don't want to have to drive out an hour to their homes. And there comes a time where we can't have 30 lane highways coming into the city.... we will have needed to build commuter rail projects where suburban folk can park at a parking garage and hop on the train into the city. This is already done in other American cities and eventually we will have to do it here too.

[JClark54]

10 hours ago, Triton said:

Wow... wow...

So we're willing to spend billions on highways by taking people's homes, demolishing massive multi-family complexes like Lofts at the Ballpark, and tearing down businesses but as soon as you mention rail, we can't do it guys! There's just no way!

I'm telling you now, 40 years later, we'll be wishing we had made these investments now. The city is only growing denser by the month because people don't want to have to drive out an hour to their homes. And there comes a time where we can't have 30 lane highways coming into the city.... we will have needed to build commuter rail projects where suburban folk can park at a parking garage and hop on the train into the city. This is already done in other American cities and eventually we will have to do it here too.

If the commuter rail entity plans to build its lines, I imagine the idea is more than plausible. If piggy-backing on existing rail infrastructure is the plan, I find it unlikely to gain traction for both legal and practical reasons.

Legally, rail companies that control who uses their lines have recently shown reluctance to permit new players in the Houston complex. They are jointly suing to stop Canadian Pacific from gaining access to the complex through merging with KCS, which has trackage rights on the East Belt, West Belt, Galveston Sub, and Terminal Sub. They are also suing to block the expansion of Amtrak Sunset Limited service. In both suits, UP and BSNF claim they can't keep existing trains moving, so adding any more capacity would cause complex failure. 

Practically, using the one-time proposed Galveston County commuter line as an example, the congestion stated above would inhibit any sense of timely arrival. In that proposal, the UP Galveston subdivision was pitched as the route. It's ideal, connecting loosely to the Amtrak station and Galveston. Aside from a few double track sections, it's primarily single track. A train parked Wednesday on the Galveston Sub, from York to nearly Wayside, for 12 hours. All freight traffic in different areas of the subdivision also had to stop as a result. Assuming that line is used again, the commuter line would have to stop in those instances, too. 

Trains stopping in streets has grown incredibly in the last five years, and the railroads state they expect service demand to increase greatly in coming years. Without some change, stoppages will get worse. Any commuter rail would on them would be unreliable. 

Edited March 3, 2023 by JClark54

[JClark54]

In UPRR v. Amtrak, Amtrak claims UP's operating structure inhibits the passenger rail company's ability to operate.

"Many of the delays incurred by the Sunset are attributable to UP corporate decisions, operational practices, or failures that result in systemic violations of Amtrak preference rights and cause substandard customer on-time performance. Among those are that UP regularly runs freight trains longer than sidings along its route; when UP dispatches freight trains that do not fit into sidings, the Sunset Limited trains must follow that non-fitter, which can result in hours of passenger delay.

As you can see, the largest segment of late passengers is 181 minutes or more. This is on the Sunset Limited, which operates in Houston on a continuous double-tracked line. Other lines in the complex are single-tracked or a mix, which means delays would be exponentially greater. 

 

Edited March 3, 2023 by JClark54

[Amlaham]

14 hours ago, Triton said:

Wow... wow...

So we're willing to spend billions on highways by taking people's homes, demolishing massive multi-family complexes like Lofts at the Ballpark, and tearing down businesses but as soon as you mention rail, we can't do it guys! There's just no way!

I'm telling you now, 40 years later, we'll be wishing we had made these investments now. The city is only growing denser by the month because people don't want to have to drive out an hour to their homes. And there comes a time where we can't have 30 lane highways coming into the city.... we will have needed to build commuter rail projects where suburban folk can park at a parking garage and hop on the train into the city. This is already done in other American cities and eventually we will have to do it here too.

Completely agree. My favorite narrative is that "we're a sunbelt city that has and will always be car centric." 

Meanwhile, other sunbelt cities that have expanded their railway system

• Miami 
• Atlanta 
• LA
• San Diego 
• Charlette 
• Pheonix 
• Tempe 
• Salt Lake City 
• Tampa 
• Dallas (w/ silver line)

Its kind of embarrassing, we're the 4th largest city in America with a veryyyy subpar transit system. On top of that, we keep making the same excuses that "it is what it is." Yet, here are other car centric cities trying their best to diversify their transit portfolio.....while we're still focusing on highways. 

https://www.thetransportpolitic.com/2022/01/24/openings-and-construction-starts-planned-for-2022/

 

 

Fun fact :) Houston and Kansas City are the ONLY World Cup US Host cities that do not have rail transit from/to the airport :)

 

Edited March 3, 2023 by Amlaham

[mattyt36]

On 3/1/2023 at 11:02 AM, NB_Brendan said:

More induced demand! Yay!

When it comes to the proposed highway projects in the region, I really don't think this one is a poster child for the induced demand argument.

[004n063]

19 hours ago, Amlaham said:

Completely agree. My favorite narrative is that "we're a sunbelt city that has and will always be car centric." 

Meanwhile, other sunbelt cities that have expanded their railway system

• Miami 
• Atlanta 
• LA
• San Diego 
• Charlette 
• Pheonix 
• Tempe 
• Salt Lake City 
• Tampa 
• Dallas (w/ silver line)

Its kind of embarrassing, we're the 4th largest city in America with a veryyyy subpar transit system. On top of that, we keep making the same excuses that "it is what it is." Yet, here are other car centric cities trying their best to diversify their transit portfolio.....while we're still focusing on highways. 

https://www.thetransportpolitic.com/2022/01/24/openings-and-construction-starts-planned-for-2022/

 

 

Fun fact :) Houston and Kansas City are the ONLY World Cup US Host cities that do not have rail transit from/to the airport :)

 

As much as I agree and also wish we had more rail, let's not pretend the city is doing nothing to expand its rapid transit. The University Line and Inner Katy BRTs are significant projects that are actively progressing; the green and purple line extensions to Hobby are currently inactive but by no means dead.

I would also note that more miles of rail lines does not inherently equate to better transit. I think you could make the argument that the green and purple lines are as good as any line in any of those cities, and I'd argue that the red line is the best among them - possibly the best surface tram service level in the country.

That's not to say that I am all satisfied. I am not convinced BRT was the best call for the University Line. I think the green line should be extended down Washington to (at least) Memorial Park. I think the Purple line should be extended along Dallas to Shepherd. I think there should be a Greenbriar/Shepherd line from Rice Village to north of 610. I think there should be a Montrose/Studemont line from Main to North Main. I I think there should be a red line branch along North Main and Airline. I think the northmost segment of red line has weird stop locations. I think there should be a line along Leeland and Telephone to Hobby. I think Hillcroft/Voss should have a line. I think Bellaire Boulevard should have a line.

But I can guarantee you people in every one of those cities could come up with an "I think _____" list just as long and implausible as mine. At least what we have has the following:

1) Good peak and tolerable off-peak headways,

2) Apart from the park-and-ride-ish termini (which are all still bus hubs, mind you), stops within comfortable walking distance of a variety of worthwhile destinations,

3) Level boarding and ride-on bike access (we need to do everything possible to preserve this - it's a godsend), and-

4) Off-board payment.

You're certainly right in that Montrose, the Heights, River Oaks, Gulfton, and the Hobby area all have an inexcusable lack of high-quality transit access, given their densities, and you're right that a lot of that is due to oppositional car-centric attitudes (which are misguided even within that telos, given the demonstrable ways in which transit benefits drivers). 

But I don't think the right approach right now is to try to reach every corner of the city with rail; rather, we should focus on ensuring that the existing and planned rail and BRT corridors are able to densify and become more pedestrian-friendly, so that (among other benefits) we can induce demand for a more fiscally sustainable growth pattern.

And, to a greater extent than you're giving credit for, we are doing that.

[Amlaham]

58 minutes ago, 004n063 said:

As much as I agree and also wish we had more rail, let's not pretend the city is doing nothing to expand its rapid transit. The University Line and Inner Katy BRTs are significant projects that are actively progressing; the green and purple line extensions to Hobby are currently inactive but by no means dead.

I would also note that more miles of rail lines does not inherently equate to better transit. I think you could make the argument that the green and purple lines are as good as any line in any of those cities, and I'd argue that the red line is the best among them - possibly the best surface tram service level in the country.

That's not to say that I am all satisfied. I am not convinced BRT was the best call for the University Line. I think the green line should be extended down Washington to (at least) Memorial Park. I think the Purple line should be extended along Dallas to Shepherd. I think there should be a Greenbriar/Shepherd line from Rice Village to north of 610. I think there should be a Montrose/Studemont line from Main to North Main. I I think there should be a red line branch along North Main and Airline. I think the northmost segment of red line has weird stop locations. I think there should be a line along Leeland and Telephone to Hobby. I think Hillcroft/Voss should have a line. I think Bellaire Boulevard should have a line.

But I can guarantee you people in every one of those cities could come up with an "I think _____" list just as long and implausible as mine. At least what we have has the following:

1) Good peak and tolerable off-peak headways,

2) Apart from the park-and-ride-ish termini (which are all still bus hubs, mind you), stops within comfortable walking distance of a variety of worthwhile destinations,

3) Level boarding and ride-on bike access (we need to do everything possible to preserve this - it's a godsend), and-

4) Off-board payment.

You're certainly right in that Montrose, the Heights, River Oaks, Gulfton, and the Hobby area all have an inexcusable lack of high-quality transit access, given their densities, and you're right that a lot of that is due to oppositional car-centric attitudes (which are misguided even within that telos, given the demonstrable ways in which transit benefits drivers). 

But I don't think the right approach right now is to try to reach every corner of the city with rail; rather, we should focus on ensuring that the existing and planned rail and BRT corridors are able to densify and become more pedestrian-friendly, so that (among other benefits) we can induce demand for a more fiscally sustainable growth pattern.

And, to a greater extent than you're giving credit for, we are doing that.

Agree to disagree 😅 yes there is a lot "in the works" but not enough for a city our size. Our rail lines probably reach a fraction of neighborhoods in the loop, let a lone our city; they go down 3-4 streets max. Which in my opinion is another reason why a lot of people don't use it and have negative views of rail; its not very convenient since it doesn't reach most of Houstonians. Again, you made good points, but I stand my ground that theres always room for improvement, especially with a city our size.

[mattyt36]

On 3/4/2023 at 5:31 AM, Amlaham said:

Agree to disagree 😅 yes there is a lot "in the works" but not enough for a city our size. Our rail lines probably reach a fraction of neighborhoods in the loop, let a lone our city; they go down 3-4 streets max. Which in my opinion is another reason why a lot of people don't use it and have negative views of rail; its not very convenient since it doesn't reach most of Houstonians. Again, you made good points, but I stand my ground that theres always room for improvement, especially with a city our size.

Do you have any thoughts on how such improvements would be funded?

[Houston19514]

On 3/3/2023 at 12:24 PM, Amlaham said:

Completely agree. My favorite narrative is that "we're a sunbelt city that has and will always be car centric." 

Meanwhile, other sunbelt cities that have expanded their railway system

• Miami 
• Atlanta 
• LA
• San Diego 
• Charlette 
• Pheonix 
• Tempe 
• Salt Lake City 
• Tampa 
• Dallas (w/ silver line)

Its kind of embarrassing, we're the 4th largest city in America with a veryyyy subpar transit system. On top of that, we keep making the same excuses that "it is what it is." Yet, here are other car centric cities trying their best to diversify their transit portfolio.....while we're still focusing on highways. 

https://www.thetransportpolitic.com/2022/01/24/openings-and-construction-starts-planned-for-2022/

 

 

Fun fact :) Houston and Kansas City are the ONLY World Cup US Host cities that do not have rail transit from/to the airport :)

 

 

On 3/4/2023 at 9:31 AM, Amlaham said:

Agree to disagree 😅 yes there is a lot "in the works" but not enough for a city our size. Our rail lines probably reach a fraction of neighborhoods in the loop, let a lone our city; they go down 3-4 streets max. Which in my opinion is another reason why a lot of people don't use it and have negative views of rail; its not very convenient since it doesn't reach most of Houstonians. Again, you made good points, but I stand my ground that theres always room for improvement, especially with a city our size.

I wonder how transit usage compare in that list of cities? I know Houston's is higher than Dallas.

[Amlaham]

33 minutes ago, Houston19514 said:

 

I wonder how transit usage compare in that list of cities? I know Houston's is higher than Dallas.

Agree, our transit usage is pretty good compared to some of the other cities which kind of goes in hand with my point. There is a market for it here, so i feel like it should be more accessible to other parts of town. It would do well IMO. Little outdated info below but I'm a little too busy this week to do research

• Atlanta MARTA rail- 64 million riders per year in 2018
• LA Light Rail-  51 million riders per year in 2019
• San Diego Trolley/ Silver line- 38 million per year in 2019
• Portland MAX Light Rail- 38 million per year in 2019
• Dallas DART Light rail- 28 million per year in 2019 
• Minneapolis Light rail- 25 million per year in 2019
• Miami Metrorail- 19 million riders per year in 2019 
• Houston Light rail- 18 million riders per year in 2019 
• Salt Lake TRAX- 17 million riders per year in 2019
• Phoenix Valley Metro Rail- 15 million riders per year in 2020
• Tampa Rail- 1 million riders per year in 2020

So yeah, not bad but a lot of room for improvement, we actually have one of the highest riders per mile transit out of all these cities. Again, apologizes I don't have enough time for the sources/ research.

[Houston19514]

12 minutes ago, Amlaham said:

Agree, our transit usage is pretty good compared to some of the other cities which kind of goes in hand with my point. There is a market for it here, so i feel like it should be more accessible to other parts of town. It would do well IMO. Little outdated info below but I'm a little too busy this week to do research

• Atlanta MARTA rail- 64 million riders per year in 2018
• LA Light Rail-  51 million riders per year in 2019
• San Diego Trolley/ Silver line- 38 million per year in 2019
• Portland MAX Light Rail- 38 million per year in 2019
• Dallas DART Light rail- 28 million per year in 2019 
• Minneapolis Light rail- 25 million per year in 2019
• Miami Metrorail- 19 million riders per year in 2019 
• Houston Light rail- 18 million riders per year in 2019 
• Salt Lake TRAX- 17 million riders per year in 2019
• Phoenix Valley Metro Rail- 15 million riders per year in 2020
• Tampa Rail- 1 million riders per year in 2020

So yeah, not bad but a lot of room for improvement, we actually have one of the highest riders per mile transit out of all these cities. Again, apologizes I don't have enough time for the sources/ research.

I was referring more to the percentage of commuters who use transit for their commute.  This is from 2019:

• Miami    2.9%
• Atlanta    2.8%
• LA           4.8%
• San Diego    2.8%
• Charlotte      
• Phoenix     1.8%
• Tempe 
• Salt Lake City   
• Tampa 
• Dallas (w/ silver line)    1.3%
• Houston    2%

https://www.census.gov/content/dam/Census/library/publications/2021/acs/acs-48.pdf

 

Edited March 9, 2023 by Houston19514