toxtethogrady Posted March 16, 2015 Share Posted March 16, 2015 That is quite the tall wooden structure. 6 floors of wood framing. It's not the only one going up in town. Six stories of kindling wood framing seems to be easy enough to do....as long as no one runs a forklift into it (see Swamplot for the results). 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Purdueenginerd Posted March 16, 2015 Share Posted March 16, 2015 (edited) It's not the only one going up in town. Six stories of kindling wood framing seems to be easy enough to do....as long as no one runs a forklift into it (see Swamplot for the results). Yeah I saw that on swamplot. I cycled by it this weekend. They were disassembling the structure on sunday. Talk about 'oops' Edited March 16, 2015 by Purdueenginerd Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Howard Huge Posted March 16, 2015 Share Posted March 16, 2015 Yeah I saw that on swamplot. I cycled by it this weekend. They were disassembling the structure on sunday. Talk about 'oops'Question for the engineer.Exactly how high can you build with all wood framing and still maintain structural integrity?10 stories? 15 stories?20 stories?? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rechlin Posted March 16, 2015 Share Posted March 16, 2015 There's a 600 foot tall all-wood structure in New Mexico at Kirtland AFB, called the Trestle as a part of Atlas-I: http://www.ece.unm.edu/summa/notes/trestle.html The 125 foot tall platform portion of it is strong enough to support a B-52. It doesn't even have metal for the bolts holding it together! 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Purdueenginerd Posted March 16, 2015 Share Posted March 16, 2015 Question for the engineer.Exactly how high can you build with all wood framing and still maintain structural integrity?10 stories?15 stories?20 stories?? Excellent question. The answer is, higher than you think. In Vienna, Austria there are plans for a 25 stories wooden skyscraper (Link: http://www.popsci.com/next-futuristic-building-material-wood?src=SOC&dom=fb ) In the article they cite the following: According to a report from architecture firm Skidmore, Owings & Merrill, a 42-story wooden building is "technically feasible." Now, in Vienna, theyre doing it for carbon footprint reduction, which, in my opinion for skyscraper construction is small fish compared to the larger problems and industries of anthropogenic climate change, but I digress. If someone asked me to design a tall wooden structure for housing people in a hurricane prone region. I would look at them perplexed and say why!? and then tell them No! Rechlin, cites a great structure that I never knew about. (thanks for sharing that). As a basis of comparison if you'd like the nitty gritty details. A36 Steel for a steel I-beam (Or W-Shape) is going to have 36,000 lbs/in^2 yield capacity (the stress where the steel will start to bend and not revert to its original shape) A concrete column will have 5,000-12,000 lbs/in^2 of compressive strength before catastrophically exploding from overloading. And the steel rebar inside of it will have 60,000 lbs/in^2 yield capacity (in Tension) A Southern Pine No. 2 Dense wood timber: 1,250 lbs/in^2 in compression, and 750 lbs/in^2 in tension. (These values would be adjusted based on certain adjustment factors per the design code). So you can see, that building a high rise out of wood is making life, kind of a head ache for the structural engineer. There are some Glulam members (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glued_laminated_timber) that's strength is significantly better (than just normal timber), but you run into fire issues without proper protection. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Purdueenginerd Posted March 16, 2015 Share Posted March 16, 2015 As a follow up to swamp lot story, (off topic sorry mods). http://swamplot.com/knocked-knox-st-townhome-brought-down-a-few-floors-yanked-straight/2015-03-16/ Looks like they disassembled floor 2 and 3 and "straightened" the first floor out. This is dumb. If they rebuild that house, without replacing the first floor in its entirety, shame on those housing contractors. Every single nail attachment on the first floor has already been compromised by a lateral deflection of that structure. Not to mention any internal damage to the wood members that they may have overlooked. Lets just say, unless they rebuild that thing: Do not buy that house. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Howard Huge Posted March 16, 2015 Share Posted March 16, 2015 Excellent in depth analysis, Purdue, thank you! Ok now to follow up. 1) I would NEVER agree to work or live in a wooden structure that high. 2) Like you said, sure you could, but WHY ON EARTH WOULD YOU? 3) That is a death trap of a fire hazard WAITING to happen, we all saw what happened with the all wood Axis apartments on West Dallas: ^ That was only FIVE stories! Could you imagine a blaze of TWENTY-FIVE stories??!! That would be FIVE TIMES THE SIZE OF THAT FIRE!!!! Imagine being trapped on an upper 24th/25th floor when the blaze raged out of control? F@#K THAT! 4) I work in construction, so I'm familiar with alot of geographical constraints we have here in southeast Texas. For instance, in Europe, cranes that are the same size as mine are only required to have 4x4, 1 1/4 inch thick steel plates to set their outriggers on. But thats because the ground over there is so solid. Down here in Houston? My crane is required to have 8x8, 3 inch thick steel plates, ON TOP of 8' by 16' wooden laminate mats, FOR EACH OUTRIGGER. One of the old guys I work with likes to joke that "It's because we're sitting on 6 million years of duck flurf down here!" My point being, even if its feasible to build these huge wooden structures in other parts of the world, would there be any geographical constraints unique to the Texas Gulf Coast (soft ground, salty sea water in the air close to Galveston, etc) that would prevent anyone from building one of these wooden towers here in our region? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Purdueenginerd Posted March 16, 2015 Share Posted March 16, 2015 Excellent in depth analysis, Purdue, thank you!Ok now to follow up.1) I would NEVER agree to work or live in a wooden structure that high.2) Like you said, sure you could, but WHY ON EARTH WOULD YOU?3) That is a death trap of a fire hazard WAITING to happen, we all saw what happened with the all wood Axis apartments on West Dallas:^ That was only FIVE stories! Could you imagine a blaze of TWENTY-FIVE stories??!! That would be FIVE TIMES THE SIZE OF THAT FIRE!!!! Imagine being trapped on an upper 24th/25th floor when the blaze raged out of control? F@#K THAT!4) I work in construction, so I'm familiar with alot of geographical constraints we have here in southeast Texas. For instance, in Europe, cranes that are the same size as mine are only required to have 4x4, 1 1/4 inch thick steel plates to set their outriggers on. But thats because the ground over there is so solid.Down here in Houston? My crane is required to have 8x8, 3 inch thick steel plates, ON TOP of 8' by 16' wooden laminate mats, FOR EACH OUTRIGGER.One of the old guys I work with likes to joke that "It's because we're sitting on 6 million years of duck flurf down here!"My point being, even if its feasible to build these huge wooden structures in other parts of the world, would there be any geographical constraints unique to the Texas Gulf Coast (soft ground, salty sea water in the air close to Galveston, etc) that would prevent anyone from building one of these wooden towers here in our region? The fire concern is real and youre right, that building totally got owned. There is a difference though between an incomplete building and a completed building with proper firebreaks, sprinkler system, etc.. In addition, SOME wooden structure can perform quite well in fires. A 2x4 will get owned in a fire for sure. But a 10x10 or 12x12 member will undergo charring on the exterior, which can protect the structural components for a time, giving you a surprisingly decent fire rating. In the codes for wood design there are equations that will give you a fire-rating on particular sized members and wood can be treated as well. It's a slow monday for me at the office. But for a wooden structure in Houston, Im guessing the biggest problems are less so the soil, and more so, the wind. Houston, per ASCE 7 (see picture: https://i.imgur.com/f2MJY71.png ),is going to have to, per code deal with 120mph-140 mph wind velocity, and the way the calculations break down, is the the taller you go the more wind pressure at higher elevations you get. Now, most of us are familiar with torque. Have bolt you can't get undone? add length to the handle, more torque. Torque is a function of force*distance. Theres another term for that, Moment, and a similar principle applies with buildings. Tall building, more force = more turning moment at the bottom. Based on the foundation design, the soils will normally handle that "Overturning moment", even in Houston. What would concern me (keep in mind I dont design 5 story apartment buildings) is the overturning moments on the framing. On the windward side of the building youre going to have a tension load applied (uplift), and on leeward side of the building you'll have a compressive load applied (downlift). In a heavier building, the 'control' check would be on the compressive side, because the building is heavy enough where "uplift" could never occur. Concrete is super awesome at compression, concrete structures: no problem! Wood structures, are way way lighter. The control check, might be on the tension side. Which gives headaches to the engineers. It's an iterative process though. Soils is less of an issue than a lot of people think of. You go deep enough, drive enough piles, or construct enough piers, you can do a lot with that, even in Galveston. Now your question is, I would opine the biggest geographical constraint for a wooden structure on the Texas Gulf Coast, is wind. Speaking in generalities that is. Thats why, when I see a very tall town house, or tall apartment like this in Houston, my eye twitches a little bit. (funny enough, I own and live in a 3 story house inside the loop). I also should state that I'm simplifying wind analysis big time, for what its worth, wind analysis in my opinion: suuuuucks doing by hand. I'm not familiar with the EuroCodes. So I looked it up, and the way wind analysis is calculated, appears to be different. On anecdotal look through the eurocodes, it would appear than the US codes are more conservative; which makes sense as North American is struck by higher wind weather events more often (in General). But to be honest, I dont know enough about Eurocodes to really give you a good answer on it. As for your outriggers, issue. That I did not know. And is quite fascinating. I know when I'm in the field, I like to see all the outriggers on clean, and well upkept laminate mats. What is interesting to me though, is the euro-plate steel being thinner, would technically lower the capacity of the crane in comparison to the American counterparts. Which might be how they get away with not putting the mats down? I'm speculating of course. I tried looking through the IBC (international building code: which is about as international as the world series) to see anything in regards to that but couldnt really. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Howard Huge Posted March 16, 2015 Share Posted March 16, 2015 As far as I know Purdue, the engineers come out to the job site long before any lifts occur and they do all the soil testing necessary to calculate the correct ground bearing pressure distribution that is necessary per OSHA regulations.Now on cranes as small as mine (265-500 ton) its not really that crucial, but when you get up to the really big cranes like Mammoets PTC or Deep Souths Versacrane, there is enough math and calculations on the ground bearing pressure paperwork to make William Rowan Hamilton confused. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigFootsSocks Posted March 17, 2015 Share Posted March 17, 2015 Ohhhh now I know why Howard posts pics of his Porsche and pistol...it's because he's got a "small crane" 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Purdueenginerd Posted March 17, 2015 Share Posted March 17, 2015 As far as I know Purdue, the engineers come out to the job site long before any lifts occur and they do all the soil testing necessary to calculate the correct ground bearing pressure distribution that is necessary per OSHA regulations.Now on cranes as small as mine (265-500 ton) its not really that crucial, but when you get up to the really big cranes like Mammoets PTC or Deep Souths Versacrane, there is enough math and calculations on the ground bearing pressure paperwork to make William Rowan Hamilton confused. Ah yes, the deep south versacrane. I was about 200 feet from the one that went down in 2008 at Lyondell Houston Refinery. Scary day Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Howard Huge Posted March 17, 2015 Share Posted March 17, 2015 Ah yes, the deep south versacrane. I was about 200 feet from the one that went down in 2008 at Lyondell Houston Refinery. Scary dayI lost four good friends that day. That accident should've never happened. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrLan34 Posted March 20, 2015 Author Share Posted March 20, 2015 (edited) 3/20 Edited March 20, 2015 by DrLan34 6 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrLan34 Posted April 3, 2015 Author Share Posted April 3, 2015 (edited) - Edited April 3, 2015 by DrLan34 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrLan34 Posted April 4, 2015 Author Share Posted April 4, 2015 (edited) New rendering on the left which is reflected in the current structure. http://dlcresidential.com/communities/dolce-living-midtown-texas/ Edited April 4, 2015 by DrLan34 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Avossos Posted April 4, 2015 Share Posted April 4, 2015 Much worse 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Naviguessor Posted April 4, 2015 Share Posted April 4, 2015 Is it because of the "not made of Bricks", issue, Avossos? ;-) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Avossos Posted April 4, 2015 Share Posted April 4, 2015 Is it because of the "not made of Bricks", issue, Avossos? ;-)We all know I'm a fan of masonry. But both renderings were unnattractive. Now the new one is yellow and stucco. Looks really cheap Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jt16 Posted April 4, 2015 Share Posted April 4, 2015 We all know I'm a fan of masonry. But both renderings were unnattractive. Now the new one is yellow and stucco. Looks really cheapI agree. That one in midtown by fiesta still looks incomplete to me. 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
H-Town Man Posted April 8, 2015 Share Posted April 8, 2015 New rendering on the left which is reflected in the current structure. http://dlcresidential.com/communities/dolce-living-midtown-texas/ Good grief someone really took a dump on this project. You'd think they would at least have pride in what they build. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
j_cuevas713 Posted April 8, 2015 Share Posted April 8, 2015 I agree. That one in midtown by fiesta still looks incomplete to me. They seriously need to repaint that building. That yellow is horrendous and doesn't blend well at all with the rest of what's around it. Unless you want to count Fiesta 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hindesky Posted April 19, 2015 Share Posted April 19, 2015 7 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
toxtethogrady Posted April 20, 2015 Share Posted April 20, 2015 Snuck that in before the rains hit? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrLan34 Posted April 23, 2015 Author Share Posted April 23, 2015 Won't this just be storage next door? Storage near Dolce Living by marclongoria, on Flickr ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Yep. Heavy equipment on site, Proguard Self Storage has started construction. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrLan34 Posted April 23, 2015 Author Share Posted April 23, 2015 Heavy equipment on site, Proguard Self Storage has started construction. Evidence Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nate4l1f3 Posted April 23, 2015 Share Posted April 23, 2015 Evidence Yuck. All public storages should be underground Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NotsuohPhoto Posted April 30, 2015 Share Posted April 30, 2015 Dolce Living 9 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrLan34 Posted May 27, 2015 Author Share Posted May 27, 2015 Looks like there might be an overhang at the storage place next door. Much better than a large surface parking lot in front if that is the case. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrLan34 Posted May 30, 2015 Author Share Posted May 30, 2015 Crane base for Proguard Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Timoric Posted May 31, 2015 Share Posted May 31, 2015 (edited) - Edited July 8, 2019 by Timoric Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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