Highway 59 - 610 Interchange Partial Rebuild

[por favor gracias]

On 6/11/2021 at 2:35 PM, Houston19514 said:

I overstated it when I said the Uptown traffic formerly had to get on the Loop.  But you are overstating it when you say that traffic had the same direct access to 59 before this project began.  That is really not true at all.  Before this project began, all of the Uptown traffic (traffic from Westheimer and W Alabama), both north and southbound had to mix with all the traffic coming from the West Loop lanes, with massive amounts of merging and lane-weaving required.   Now, the Uptown traffic goes truly directly to both 69 northbound and 69 southbound, without having to first join with (and weave with) the traffic exiting the Loop mainlines (only joining with the traffic coming from the West Loop after all of the directional un-mixing has been accomplished -- no weaving required).

IIRC, the old ramp (with the traffic from Westheimer & W. Alabama) merged onto the exit ramp off 610 that required weaving over a lane (with not very much room) for those getting onto 59 northbound. It didn't interfere with 610 itself, but it merged with the ramp for 59 northbound/southbound. I'm not sure how much impact that old ramp had on traffic as those who were taking 59 northbound were the only people who had to weave across that lane. They had the option to weave into that same lane and take 59 southbound as well, but were not required to do that as that old ramp added a lane for 59 southbound upon merging with the exit ramp from 610 to 59 northbound and southbound. Correct me if I'm wrong on that, but I think that's how it was situated.

On 6/11/2021 at 2:35 PM, Houston19514 said:

Furthermore, there will now be two lanes fully dedicated to carrying Loop traffic on to Southbound 69 (the direction that needs the additional capacity) PLUS the additional lane carrying the Uptown traffic on to Southbound 69, PLUS the Northbound Loop traffic coming to southbound 69 will not join the that same ramp as it did before.  So the net result should be pretty significant increased capacity for the ramps to southbound 69.

The new Chimney Rock exits will also help. Credit where credit's due, they did a great job on that.

Most of the intersection will be an upgrade when complete, but one lane from 610 southbound exiting 59 northbound isn't going to be pretty, especially since they moved it to the far right lane to where it's going to be shared with some of that traffic exiting 59 southbound. Additionally, that exit is now situated a little before the 59 southbound exit, creating less time/room to get over to that far right lane before exiting. Even with all the "un-mixing" that will help around this area, this part of the intersection is going to be worse than it was before construction. Tbh, I don't even think 2 lanes is enough for the 59 southbound exit off 610 itself, especially when one of those lanes will be backed up already from those trying to get all the way over to exit 59 northbound. I get that they're not exactly working with unlimited right of way and there's consequently not enough room to do that here, but I'm just saying. That northbound exit ramp is going to slow everything down around it.

[JLWM8609]

3 hours ago, por favor gracias said:

Don't get me started on how they manage their projects. You think my last few posts have been long...

The City of Houston did a similar thing when they decided to reconstruct most of downtown's streets and underground utilities at the same time during 1998-2005. Lee Brown faced criticism for that and barely won re-election in 2001 even though he actually stretched out the timeline after he decided too much construction was going on. 15-20 years later, it was worth it. Our reconstructed streets downtown are in excellent condition compared to other cities.

[por favor gracias]

5 hours ago, JLWM8609 said:

The City of Houston did a similar thing when they decided to reconstruct most of downtown's streets and underground utilities at the same time during 1998-2005. Lee Brown faced criticism for that and barely won re-election in 2001 even though he actually stretched out the timeline after he decided too much construction was going on. 15-20 years later, it was worth it. Our reconstructed streets downtown are in excellent condition compared to other cities.

Updating our street grid should be viewed as more of an investment than an expense.

[por favor gracias]

I'd like to say it's unbelievable that they're working on both ramps from 59 to 610 northbound at the same time, but here we are. Again, why not work on the ramp from 59 southbound first...get it finished in less than a month (of course that would require allocating resources like they should be doing for a project that has this much impact on traffic) and then start working on the ramp from 59 northbound? Perhaps they may need to close off the immediate area where the ramps will merge, but that shouldn't take more than a weekend to complete (again, if they used their resources like they should for a project of this magnitude)...much less 6-8 months by the time it will be complete.

Why are they even focusing on this part of the intersection in the first place while the 610 southbound ramp to 59 southbound remains torn up...especially after they recently finished the 610 southbound to 59 northbound ramp?

It's like a pissed off five year old is making these decisions.

[Highrise Tower]

610 At Richmond.

[Highrise Tower]

610 at Richmond.

[Highrise Tower]

59 underneath 610.

[Highrise Tower]

[Highrise Tower]

Found this very bizarre homemade sign on Weslayan and 59. The sign reads 59 Ramp Now Open!!

Someone had to be greatly happy that the ramp was now open. Possible trolling?

[BigFootsSocks]

Let's have a quick chat about how absolutely god awful this entire project has been in its execution. The switcheroo they pulled on the 610 South to 59/69 ramps was bad enough without the stupid confusing signs (59 north is the first exit, but it's listed as Exit 8B. B comes after A, so why in god's name is the exit first??) but the new ramps to 610 north are *chefs kiss* perfectly sh!tty. For drivers on 59/69 south taking the newly opened ramp to 610 north, you have all of 50 yards to merge into a line of bumper-to-bumper cars from the 59/69 north ramp. It's insane the tiny amount of room you're given to merge over, and of course this cluster backs up the ramp all the way to Newcastle on 59/69. This is only made worse by the people who wait until the last second to cut people off at the front of the line, and this isn't even in rush hour!

I don't understand how you could take one of the busiest interchanges and freeways in the Houston region and just barely give it a face lift. Absolutely mind-boggling how inept this design is.

[samagon]

59SB to 610SB is going to be closed starting this weekend, and should be expected to stay closed until the project is completed in 2 years.

 

 

[august948]

14 hours ago, samagon said:

59SB to 610SB is going to be closed starting this weekend, and should be expected to stay closed until the project is completed in 2 years.

 

 

At which point they'll start reconstructing the whole interchange again...😛

[Luminare]

On 4/27/2022 at 10:04 PM, august948 said:

At which point they'll start reconstructing the whole interchange again...😛

I'm still amazed that the Gulf Freeway is still under construction. Can't beat that. Gulf Freeway is the Heavyweight champion of the world in never-ending freeway construction.

[august948]

2 hours ago, Luminare said:

I'm still amazed that the Gulf Freeway is still under construction. Can't beat that. Gulf Freeway is the Heavyweight champion of the world in never-ending freeway construction.

I don't know...seems like I35 has been under construction between Waco and San Antonio since my days at Baylor in the mid 80's. 

[JLWM8609]

On 4/29/2022 at 8:29 PM, Luminare said:

I'm still amazed that the Gulf Freeway is still under construction. Can't beat that. Gulf Freeway is the Heavyweight champion of the world in never-ending freeway construction.

I used to think people were exaggerating, but they were right. There was a brief period in the late 90s and early 00s when it wasn't under construction. Before that, the construction was upgrading the 50s era divided highway between Houston and Galveston to a full freeway from the 60s to the 80s. When that ended, there was widening from Downtown to the Beltway from the 80s to the 90s. Then they started it all over again with the NASA bypass in the mid 00s as the first stage of the ongoing widening from the Beltway to Galveston. When they finish that, the Gulf Freeway will be torn up near Downtown for the NHHIP. They really do get to one end and start tearing up the other end!

[editor]

On 5/3/2022 at 8:55 PM, JLWM8609 said:

I used to think people were exaggerating, but they were right. There was a brief period in the late 90s and early 00s when it wasn't under construction. Before that, the construction was upgrading the 50s era divided highway between Houston and Galveston to a full freeway from the 60s to the 80s. When that ended, there was widening from Downtown to the Beltway from the 80s to the 90s. Then they started it all over again with the NASA bypass in the mid 00s as the first stage of the ongoing widening from the Beltway to Galveston. When they finish that, the Gulf Freeway will be torn up near Downtown for the NHHIP. They really do get to one end and start tearing up the other end!

A lot of highway construction is just a jobs project.  The last thing that politicians want is thousands of often-unionized construction workers with nothing to do.  The construction and related companies feed the politicians money, and the politicians feed the construction companies things to work on.

Imagine what the state of passenger rail would be today if railroads suckled at the government teat to this degree?  After all, a lack of government contracts is what killed passenger rail in America.  (For those of you too young to remember, just days after the government announced it would move mail haulage from trains to trucks, AT&SF announced the closure of 33 of its 39 passenger routes.)

I'm not saying that Amtrak doesn't benefit from government largess.  But the magnitude is simply not comparable.

[mattyt36]

1 hour ago, editor said:

A lot of highway construction is just a jobs project.  The last thing that politicians want is thousands of often-unionized construction workers with nothing to do.  The construction and related companies feed the politicians money, and the politicians feed the construction companies things to work on.

Well, that's a bit cynical and simplistic to say the least.  How many construction workers in Texas are unionized?  (I honestly don't know, but my guess is not many.)

[Houston19514]

5 hours ago, editor said:

A lot of highway construction is just a jobs project.  The last thing that politicians want is thousands of often-unionized construction workers with nothing to do.  The construction and related companies feed the politicians money, and the politicians feed the construction companies things to work on.

Imagine what the state of passenger rail would be today if railroads suckled at the government teat to this degree?  After all, a lack of government contracts is what killed passenger rail in America.  (For those of you too young to remember, just days after the government announced it would move mail haulage from trains to trucks, AT&SF announced the closure of 33 of its 39 passenger routes.)

I'm not saying that Amtrak doesn't benefit from government largess.  But the magnitude is simply not comparable.

That’s a creative reading of history.  In reality, passengers choosing to drive or fly rather than take trains is what killed passenger service in America.  Suckling on the teat of the  postal contracts kept it alive a little longer it otherwise would have survived.

[editor]

9 hours ago, Houston19514 said:

That’s a creative reading of history.  In reality, passengers choosing to drive or fly rather than take trains is what killed passenger service in America.  Suckling on the teat of the  postal contracts kept it alive a little longer it otherwise would have survived.

Not creative at all.  It was all completely documented in the media at the time, and in books since then.  The railroads explicitly stated the reason.  It's not like people had to piece things together to come to a conclusion, they were honest about it.

Looking into history, mail contracts are also helped make long-distance stage coaches possible, and the settling of the American west before the railroads.

We allow politicians to funnel our tax money into freeways in the name of commerce, but expect railroads to pay for their own tracks and land.  Then we wonder why railroads struggle.  There's a cognitive disconnect there.

[mattyt36]

1 hour ago, editor said:

Not creative at all.  It was all completely documented in the media at the time, and in books since then.  The railroads explicitly stated the reason.  It's not like people had to piece things together to come to a conclusion, they were honest about it.

It was?  Well if it was "completely documented in the media at the time and in books since then," I'm sure alternative points of views have also been "completely documented."  What do they say?

What is the cost per mile of heavy rail versus freeway?  What is the comparative operating cost?  If one assumes a long-distance national road network is also needed (recall the National Defense Highway System), how much increased federal spending are we talking here?  How would such requirements not result in much reduced access for many communities across the country?

What private sector transportation industry gets continuous substantial federal government subsidy?  How much subsidy (versus user fees paid via gas taxes) does the federal government pay today to maintain the best interstate highway system in the world?

What is the public benefit of railroads versus public roadways vis-a-vis the relative level of investment?

Edited May 6, 2022 by mattyt36

[samagon]

7 hours ago, editor said:

Not creative at all.  It was all completely documented in the media at the time, and in books since then.  The railroads explicitly stated the reason.  It's not like people had to piece things together to come to a conclusion, they were honest about it.

I mean, let's also not forget the power of the marketing engine. 

everyone needs a car, even before they needed a car, they were convinced by marketing departments that they needed a car.

at this point, on average, it costs just under $10,000 to own and operate a car in a year. https://www.aaa.com/autorepair/articles/average-annual-cost-of-new-vehicle-ownership

it's not like that number goes down, ever. it just keeps inching higher and higher.

[mattyt36]

37 minutes ago, samagon said:

I mean, let's also not forget the power of the marketing engine. 

everyone needs a car, even before they needed a car, they were convinced by marketing departments that they needed a car.

at this point, on average, it costs just under $10,000 to own and operate a car in a year. https://www.aaa.com/autorepair/articles/average-annual-cost-of-new-vehicle-ownership

it's not like that number goes down, ever. it just keeps inching higher and higher.

What a bunch of brainwashed idiots, eh?  That's certainly not indicative of any legitimate demand.  If only they listened to the self-appointed experts who obviously know what's better for them.  🙄

Edited May 6, 2022 by mattyt36

[editor]

On 5/6/2022 at 9:30 AM, mattyt36 said:

It was?  Well if it was "completely documented in the media at the time and in books since then," I'm sure alternative points of views have also been "completely documented."  What do they say?

What is the cost per mile of heavy rail versus freeway?  What is the comparative operating cost?  If one assumes a long-distance national road network is also needed (recall the National Defense Highway System), how much increased federal spending are we talking here?  How would such requirements not result in much reduced access for many communities across the country?

What private sector transportation industry gets continuous substantial federal government subsidy?  How much subsidy (versus user fees paid via gas taxes) does the federal government pay today to maintain the best interstate highway system in the world?

What is the public benefit of railroads versus public roadways vis-a-vis the relative level of investment?

Your questions are neither new, nor unique.  These were all answered decades ago.  And asking a bunch of questions in a long screed doesn't make you right.  It just demonstrates that you lack knowledge of the topic.

The answers to all of you questions can be found here and here.

I'm not going to do your homework for you.

[mattyt36]

14 hours ago, editor said:

Your questions are neither new, nor unique.  These were all answered decades ago.  And asking a bunch of questions in a long screed doesn't make you right.  It just demonstrates that you lack knowledge of the topic.

The answers to all of you questions can be found here and here.

I'm not going to do your homework for you.

🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣

WHOA BOY.

Another person on a discussion forum who . . . doesn't . . . like . . . to . . . discuss . . . and he's the guy who started it all!  Well, the irony is not lost on me.

(❤️ Long live HAIF . . . thank you Ed!)

14 hours ago, editor said:

Your questions are neither new, nor unique.  These were all answered decades ago. 

Very Joel Osteen.

Quote

And asking a bunch of questions in a long screed doesn't make you right. 

Don't think you're the one to lecture me in rhetorical techniques, buddy.  

(I feel obligated to say, "And refusing to even ATTEMPT to answer logical questions doesn't make you right, either," but that's for another day . . . what a dumb thing to say, BTW, surely must have felt better at the time.)

Your argument as presented is:

"Oh those highways, all about the unions and the politicians, they all suck at that government teat"

"BTW, stage coaches"

And, finally, "What I say is true is because of a link to the Houston Public Library and usa.gov."  

Quick check of the card catalog says there are books in there that don't agree with your take.

So, instead of being so emotional, why not engage on the points?

As someone important once wrote, "HAIF is better than that"

Edited May 9, 2022 by mattyt36

[editor]

Quote

Quick check of the card catalog says there are books in there that don't agree with your take

You'll forgive me if I choose not to believe that you checked the card catalog.  I say this because the card catalog was taken out years ago.

Quote

Very Joel Osteen

If you say so.  I have no idea what that means.

Quote

Don't think you're the one to lecture me in rhetorical techniques, buddy

Too late.  Then again, I'm not the sort of person who employs emojis as part of my rhetoric.

Quote

So, instead of being so emotional, why not engage on the points?

Because it's off-topic. This thread is about the 610/59 construction.  I'm not interested in taking it any further astray.  If you'd like to start a new thread about it, that's a better idea. 

[samagon]

[mattyt36]

8 hours ago, editor said:

You'll forgive me if I choose not to believe that you checked the card catalog.  I say this because the card catalog was taken out years ago.

If you say so.  I have no idea what that means.

Too late.  Then again, I'm not the sort of person who employs emojis as part of my rhetoric.

Because it's off-topic. This thread is about the 610/59 construction.  I'm not interested in taking it any further astray.  If you'd like to start a new thread about it, that's a better idea. 

🤣 🤣 🤣 🤣 🤣 🤣

As my grandmother would say, you're a real hoot and a holler!  Very special, indeed.

8 hours ago, editor said:

You'll forgive me if I choose not to believe that you checked the card catalog.  I say this because the card catalog was taken out years ago.

I'll forgive you for not knowing how to search the HPL card catalog (apologies for my antiquated terms there, Ed . . . it's called a "metaphor").  Since you enlightened me with a very "on-topic" link that gave me great information on how to get a replacement social security card should I ever lose mine, let me do you one better:

Catalog - HPL (sirsi.net)

(I mean, wow . . . amirite?)

8 hours ago, editor said:

Too late.  Then again, I'm not the sort of person who employs emojis as part of my rhetoric.

"You'll forgive me if" I ask the following question: "You have rhetoric?"  Cuz I haven't seen it.  I mean I guess one could describe it as "passive-aggressive," "condescending," "arrogant" . . . but most importantly of all . . . absolutely empty.

You make a sweeping generalization, someone points it out, and you say, "This has all been discussed and the answer is as I say.  And, oh and by the way, let me educate you . . . there are books in the Houston Public Library, but I won't tell you which one explains it all."

I mean, surely you must realize how infantile that is.

But . . . ya . . . just . . . can't . . . engage on the points that you made.  An "I was being simplistic, but I think what I said was the primary theme that got us to where we were today" would be entirely understandable and defensible.  Instead . . . yeah.  Anyway, I certainly can say I see you--and pretty clearly--buddy. 

So, maybe I would ascribe the adjective "prideful" to your rhetoric as well.

8 hours ago, editor said:

Because it's off-topic. This thread is about the 610/59 construction.  I'm not interested in taking it any further astray.  If you'd like to start a new thread about it, that's a better idea. 

It's quite obvious that you do have an interest in taking it further astray.  Why, well, you responded . . . quelle surprise.  Just fish for an ounce of humility and meditate on that for a minute.  And after you meditate on that, you can meditate on the fact that this all started with the comment:

On 5/5/2022 at 5:03 PM, editor said:

A lot of highway construction is just a jobs project.  The last thing that politicians want is thousands of often-unionized construction workers with nothing to do.  The construction and related companies feed the politicians money, and the politicians feed the construction companies things to work on.

Is that particularly "on topic" vis-a-vis the 59-610 interchange construction?  How about your extraordinarily "on-topic" link to usa.gov?  I mean--if anyone has gotten us "off-the-rails" (warning: METAPHOR!), it's you, Ed.

(And, if you want to start a new topic, I'm sure you've got a button or two to do that as a Moderator even more easily than I do.  The added plus is that you--as Moderator--gets to curate what posts go into that thread, which I'm quite confident has to be appealing to your personality.  Sadly, I think this post will end in another outcome altogether because, between the two of us, only one of us can say "Because I said so" as if it's any real justification . . . in fact there's a whole thread to prove that's exactly how you think.)

Edited May 11, 2022 by mattyt36

[editor]

16 hours ago, mattyt36 said:

🤣 🤣 🤣 🤣 🤣 🤣

As my grandmother would say, you're a real hoot and a holler!  Very special, indeed.

I'll forgive you for not knowing how to search the HPL card catalog (apologies for my antiquated terms there, Ed . . . it's called a "metaphor").  Since you enlightened me with a very "on-topic" link that gave me great information on how to get a replacement social security card should I ever lose mine, let me do you one better:

Catalog - HPL (sirsi.net)

(I mean, wow . . . amirite?)

"You'll forgive me if" I ask the following question: "You have rhetoric?"  Cuz I haven't seen it.  I mean I guess one could describe it as "passive-aggressive," "condescending," "arrogant" . . . but most importantly of all . . . absolutely empty.

You make a sweeping generalization, someone points it out, and you say, "This has all been discussed and the answer is as I say.  And, oh and by the way, let me educate you . . . there are books in the Houston Public Library, but I won't tell you which one explains it all."

I mean, surely you must realize how infantile that is.

But . . . ya . . . just . . . can't . . . engage on the points that you made.  An "I was being simplistic, but I think what I said was the primary theme that got us to where we were today" would be entirely understandable and defensible.  Instead . . . yeah.  Anyway, I certainly can say I see you--and pretty clearly--buddy. 

So, maybe I would ascribe the adjective "prideful" to your rhetoric as well.

It's quite obvious that you do have an interest in taking it further astray.  Why, well, you responded . . . quelle surprise.  Just fish for an ounce of humility and meditate on that for a minute.  And after you meditate on that, you can meditate on the fact that this all started with the comment:

Is that particularly "on topic" vis-a-vis the 59-610 interchange construction?  How about your extraordinarily "on-topic" link to usa.gov?  I mean--if anyone has gotten us "off-the-rails" (warning: METAPHOR!), it's you, Ed.

(And, if you want to start a new topic, I'm sure you've got a button or two to do that as a Moderator even more easily than I do.  The added plus is that you--as Moderator--gets to curate what posts go into that thread, which I'm quite confident has to be appealing to your personality.  Sadly, I think this post will end in another outcome altogether because, between the two of us, only one of us can say "Because I said so" as if it's any real justification . . . in fact there's a whole thread to prove that's exactly how you think.)

As the kids say: tl;dr.

[por favor gracias]

On 4/27/2022 at 8:44 AM, samagon said:

59SB to 610SB is going to be closed starting this weekend, and should be expected to stay closed until the project is completed in 2 years.

 

 

2 years for this ramp and the two 610 bridge spans that go over 59...

They know exactly how much this will affect traffic, that this will cause accidents and probably cost a few lives directly or indirectly, and we all know they can build this in a fraction of that time. I wonder if they'll still be working on the 610 SB to 59 SB ramp when they're finished here.

It's just unbelievable.

[Highrise Tower]