Train From Houston To Galveston?

[Triton]

There isn't much to talk about yet, but there is a proposal to be released Thursday which will detail a plan to build a passenger train line from Houston to Galveston.

Source

What are your thoughts?

[ricco67]

I'm actually quite excited about this. I'm just curious exactly how it will work out. The thing I'm apprehensive about is how will this affect the freight traffic coming out of ship channel.

[mojeaux131]

Yes! Then people can have all they want to drink at Mardi Gras and not have to worry about driving back. Just take the train back to Houston and get a cab or have someone pick you up. Ah, the possibilities...

[lockmat]

This isn't really news, is it?

[mojeaux131]

This isn't really news, is it?

Not really, but damn it'd be great, eh? MARDI GRAS!!!!!!! (Sigh) perhaps I should remember that I'm not living at UH anymore. Still though...

[lockmat]

We'd be singin this all the way there:

http://youtube.com/watch?v=U9vZ_akgmXU

Yeah, it'd be awesome. It would be nice to save some money on gas by parking downtownish and head there on a lazy Saturday afternoon on the train.

Edited November 15, 2007 by lockmat

[Jax]

I wonder where it would drop you off in G-Town... walking distance of a beach?

[TheNiche]

I wonder where it would drop you off in G-Town... walking distance of a beach?

Nope. More than likely 25th @ The Strand.

[T 2 THA C]

We'd be singin this all the way there:

http://youtube.com/watch?v=U9vZ_akgmXU

Yeah, it'd be awesome. It would be nice to save some money on gas by parking downtownish and head there on a lazy Saturday afternoon on the train.

I can get w/ that!!!

[musicman]

13 just said the proposal is for 400 million and would open in 2012.

[Vertigo58]

If they did it 50 plus years ago, don't see why they cant bring it back.

[MidtownCoog]

Why not bring the RR Museum back to life? This was the original terminal. If you have not been it's pretty neat. They have the Houston Post covering the last train trip between Galveston in Houston. I think it was 1961.

[tmariar]

Is this the same project reported on in January?

I remember the Texas Limited venture in '89-'94, which is mentioned in the Chron article. They seemed to try various scheduling/pricing combinations over the course of the time they operated - but my recollection was that it was priced too high (and thus marketed for special occasions), and that the ride took longer than you would think it would. The railroad museum website says "track speed restrictions and liability insurance costs ended operations."

[Highway6]

Todays Chronicle article on this proposal.

[wakester]

Is this the same project reported on in January?

I remember the Texas Limited venture in '89-'94, which is mentioned in the Chron article. They seemed to try various scheduling/pricing combinations over the course of the time they operated - but my recollection was that it was priced too high (and thus marketed for special occasions), and that the ride took longer than you would think it would. The railroad museum website says "track speed restrictions and liability insurance costs ended operations."

They mention that the tracks will be updated to allow for higher speeds. Also, this will not be a private business, so it does not need to make a profit. They can justify the cost in other ways : less road maintenance/expansion, less pollution, increased tax revenue from station locations, ...

Hopefully Metro and the other regions can work together on a common payment system. So I can use my Qcard to get on the 290 Commuter train, then swipe it on the Galveston train, and then use it on the trolley/bus when I get to Galveston.

[TheNiche]

They mention that the tracks will be updated to allow for higher speeds. Also, this will not be a private business, so it does not need to make a profit. They can justify the cost in other ways : less road maintenance/expansion, less pollution, increased tax revenue from station locations, ...

Hopefully Metro and the other regions can work together on a common payment system. So I can use my Qcard to get on the 290 Commuter train, then swipe it on the Galveston train, and then use it on the trolley/bus when I get to Galveston.

Unfortunately, those justifications for rail aren't as supportive as you might think. The tracks may allow for higher speeds, but if they put in many stops at all, then acceleration/deceleration and waiting at stations negates the time savings And it looks like they'll have to put in Clear Lake and Dickinson stations (at least) if they want ridership that is even remotely acceptable.

Road maintenance is only based in part on traffic volume, and then passenger vehicles aren't nearly as destructive to roadbeds as is truck traffic and time. Commuter rail also only makes vehicle trips shorter and does nearly nothing to eliminate their number, so local streets are still impacted just as much. In fact, streets around the stations may now require greater maintenance and expansion than would otherwise be the case to accomodate rerouted traffic patterns.

If the train is powered by a diesel engine, then there's still pollution with local impacts. And don't forget that the pollution emitted in the name of transit has to be thought of not only in terms of operation, but also for construction of the systems and vehicles. And as I stated earlier, people in cars still have to get to the rail station, so there's still output.

Increased tax revenues are hard to justify if you consider that people moving to new multifamily housing around the stations would likely have just moved to multifamily housing not around the stations if the stations weren't there. It changes the location of the tax base, and may have some slight effect on the value, but for the most part, it really isn't very supportive.

I'm not saying that these items won't produce public benefit, just that it's much smaller than most people expect because they are looking for total benefits associated with commuter rail rather than marginal benefit as compared with a no-build or other scenario. I look forward to completely and totally debunking this group's study.

[Vertigo58]

Just some viewing material.

This link has some nice pics of Amtrak trains that used to service Houston and Galveston and beyond.

http://www.railpixs.com/amt2/amt2.html

[CDeb]

Road maintenance is only based in part on traffic volume, and then passenger vehicles aren't nearly as destructive to roadbeds as is truck traffic and time.

To back you up on this point, in pavement design, passenger car traffic is either ignored or has a minuscule input. Truck traffic governs pavement design.

On a slab of pavement designed to handle thousands of trucks a day for twenty years or more, passengers cars are like love bugs on a windshield.

[wakester]

Unfortunately, those justifications for rail aren't as supportive as you might think. ...

I guess you are right. We should just "Katy Freeway" the rest of the highways into town.

My point was that the recent rail line was a private company and that as a commuter line it can succeed even if it does not make a profit. I think the biggest negative would be that it would encourage more people to move to an area that is vulnerable to Hurricanes.

And don't forget that the pollution emitted in the name of transit has to be thought of not only in terms of operation, but also for construction of the systems and vehicles.

If the trains are made in Germany then they get that pollution

[CDeb]

If the trains are made in Germany then they get that pollution

But if you have drunk the global warming koolaid, that shouldn't matter.

[RedScare]

It is highly unlikely that replacing a single railroad track, and even adding a double track, even remotely approaches the energy consumed and pollution produced by ripping up an 8 lane freeway and attendant frontage roads, moving dirt around, and repaving an 18 to 22 lane freeway, such as is being done to the Katy Freeway. This is in addition to the pollution savings suggested in the study by train use over vehicle use by the passengers.

As for economic benefit, I do not think that these projects should even be touting those. It is likely true that houses built near stations are merely replacements for houses that would have been built elsewhere. This reduces congestion...a good thing...but economically, it is a wash. And, transit projects are about increasing transportation options, not economic growth.

As for diesel engines producing pollution, so what? Everyone knows that. The study shows a projected REDUCTION in pollutants, not an elimination of them. The fact that this proposal does not eliminate ALL pollution does not negate its value.

Trip times are important, but the convenience may overcome the possibility of a slower trip. The TRE in DFW gives us a rough comparison. The trip between downtown Fort Worth and downtown Dallas is 34 miles. There are 6 intermediate stops, or one every 6 miles. The trip takes 61 minutes. This includes a 5 to 7 minute wait on a side track in the middle of the trip, as most of the route is single tracked. The average speed is 34 mph with the wait, 38 mph if the route were double tracked.

The Houston-Galveston route would be about 49 miles. At 34 mph, this would be a 90 minute trip. At 38 mph, the trip time is 1 hour 18 minutes. If the train made 6 stops, the stations would be spaced at 8 miles apart, allowing for higher speeds between stops. This could reduce the trip time to 1 hour 15 minutes, or possibly less. Given the current rush hour drive time of well over an hour, coupled with the lower stress of riding the train, the trip time could be considered very acceptable.

I sold some lots I owned in Galveston 3 years ago, specifically because there was no transit of any kind to downtown. There was no way I would drive that commute each day. If the train was an option, I would definitely reconsider that option.

Edited November 16, 2007 by RedScare

[Transit Nut]

Here's some additional info:

http://news.galvestondailynews.com/story.l...737635f8e5f474d

I don't think this has been posted in this topic, but Christof Spieler did a blog article back in September (over 2 months ago) on how a Houston-Galveston commuter rail might work:

http://www.ctchouston.org/blogs/christof/2...ng-good-habits/

[TheNiche]

Red, I think that we just concluded in essence the same thing, spun differently.

[TheNiche]

I guess you are right. We should just "Katy Freeway" the rest of the highways into town.

My point was that the recent rail line was a private company and that as a commuter line it can succeed even if it does not make a profit.

I didn't say anything about the Katy Freeway; that's a topic for another thread. I'm only talking about the pitfalls of the cost/benefit analysis as it pertains to this route.

Which recent rail line was a private company?

[dbigtex56]

Hopefully Metro and the other regions can work together on a common payment system. So I can use my Qcard to get on the 290 Commuter train, then swipe it on the Galveston train, and then use it on the trolley/bus when I get to Galveston.

Excellent idea. Perhaps the Woodlands Express could also be integrated into the system as well.

[RedScare]

Red, I think that we just concluded in essence the same thing, spun differently.

Sorry if I sounded like I was disagreeing with you. I was adding to your statements.

Perhaps the Woodlands Express could also be integrated into the system as well.

Given that the various toll road authorities have figured out how to make the EZ Tag work at various disparate toll roads around the state, there is no technological reason why the Q Card could not do the same for regional mass transit. In fact, I would be surprised if this is NOT already being studied.

[wakester]

Which recent rail line was a private company?

I was replying to post #13, talking about the Texas Limited. I thought that was a private company (I could be wrong).

[dbigtex56]

Commuter rail also only makes vehicle trips shorter and does nearly nothing to eliminate their number, so local streets are still impacted just as much. In fact, streets around the stations may now require greater maintenance and expansion than would otherwise be the case to accomodate rerouted traffic patterns.

Commuter rail would terminate within easy walking distance of public transportation in Houston, and would spur other termini to follow suit. The automobile does not need to be factored into every equation.

[wakester]

Trip times are important, but the convenience may overcome the possibility of a slower trip.

This is a point that a lot of people miss. I commute from Cypress to Uptown. Sometimes riding the bus may actually take longer than driving because I have to transfer (if they added diamond lanes on 290 it would not). But the fact that I can do work on the way ( or relax ) is the real reason I take transit. Now if you add WiFi access to the train, then that hour and 15 minutes becomes very productive.

[TheNiche]

Commuter rail would terminate within easy walking distance of public transportation in Houston, and would spur other termini to follow suit. The automobile does not need to be factored into every equation.

Commuter rail is about suburb-to-city or inter-city transit. Not intra-city; that's what LRT is for.

Only a tiny percentage of commuter rail riders will be able to walk from home to a station; suburbs aren't bus-friendly enough to get people from their homes to the station; the vast majority will drive there. And if they're going to drive there, additional automobile-oriented infrastructure has to be built around those stations to handle them.