Willowbrook Mall

[bbaggins]

I dont know if anyone saw it, but there was yet another news report on Channel 13 the other day about HPD stepping up its police presence along 1960 between 249 and I-45. The crime is getting pretty bad there. They really need to do something

My wife no longer goes to Willowbrook mall because she doesn't feel safe. On two occasions she has had shady characters trailing her in the parking lot until she brought out her mace and turned to face them.

Since we have a new baby, my wife actually drives to the Galleria to go to the mall!!!!!

I grew up in that area in the 80's...it was very safe then. Has the area gone downhill?

[mrfootball]

I grew up in that area in the 80's...it was very safe then. Has the area gone downhill?

Looking at a crime map, an overwhelming majority of the crime that occurs in NW Harris County (an area with well over 1,000,000 people) occurs in/around Willowbrook Mall (mostly car theft). Considering the sheer number of people in the Willowbrook area, the crime isn't bad. I wouldn't go so far to say that it's gone downhill (i.e Greenspoint), but the Willowbrook area right at 1960 and 249 isn't as safe as it once was. With that said, I feel safer at Willowbrook than I do many other malls save for The Woodlands.

Edited May 5, 2008 by mrfootball

[Trae]

Looking at a crime map, an overwhelming majority of the crime that occurs in NW Harris County (an area with well over 1,000,000 people) occurs in/around Willowbrook Mall (mostly car theft). Considering the sheer number of people in the Willowbrook area, the crime isn't bad. I wouldn't go so far to say that it's gone downhill (i.e Greenspoint), but the Willowbrook area right at 1960 and 249 isn't as safe as it once was. With that said, I feel safer at Willowbrook than I do many other malls save for The Woodlands.

NW Harris County does not have one million out of the 1.4 million in Unicorporated Harris County. I doubt it. Maybe like 700,000.

Does Memorial City Mall scare you?

Edited May 5, 2008 by Trae

[mrfootball]

NW Harris County does not have one million out of the 1.4 million in Unicorporated Harris County. I doubt it. Maybe like 700,000.

fyi - there are a hell of a lot more people in Unincorporated Harris County than 1.4 Million people (Houston MSA has 5.4 million conservatively...more like 5.8). As for the Northwest (the largest part of unincorporated Harris County) Cy-Fair alone has 700-750,000. Add in Klein, Spring, Tomball, etc and you easily hit/surpass 1 million.

Edited May 5, 2008 by mrfootball

[Trae]

fyi - there are a hell of a lot more people in Unincorporated Harris County than 1.4 Million people (Houston MSA has 5.4 million conservatively...more like 5.8). As for the Northwest (the largest part of unincorporated Harris County) Cy-Fair alone has 700-750,000. Add in Klein, Spring, Tomball, etc and you easily hit/surpass 1 million.

I was going by the Chron article today, that said 1.4 million of the 3.9 million people in Harris County live in the unincorporated parts.

By the way, don't forget the other counties in the Houston MSA.

Edited May 5, 2008 by Trae

[mrfootball]

I was going by the Chron article today, that said 1.4 million of the 3.9 million people in Harris County live in the unincorporated parts.

By the way, don't forget the other counties in the Houston MSA.

The Chronicle can say that, but the Chronicle's figures are out of date. Demographic figures are never 100% spot on, especially in high growth areas. Houston has grown quite a bit since the 2000 census, even those figures are crap because they don't count hundreds of thousands of undocumented persons, etc residing in/around the Houston metro area.

School districts are one of the more accurate indicators of recent growth and demographers generally compute total district population to be a factor between 6-7 times the enrolled student population. The school district's (CFISD) formula is that for every 6-7 people there is one school aged child. Calculate the enrollment of CFISD, KISD, SISD, TISD.

692,188 CFISD (98,884 students)

65,716 TISD (9,388 students)

226,800 SISD (32,400 students)

289,982 KISD (41,426 students)

Total Enrollment = 182,098

Using these figures (which are already outdated) you get a figure between:

1,092,588 (x6) and 1,274,686 NW Harris County (x7)

[Trae]

You're stretching if you include Spring. That is more north. School districts is a bad way to define it. For example, Cy-Fair ISD stretches all the way down to Clay Road at Fry. Surely you don't think Clay Road is in Northwest Houston?

[mrfootball]

You're stretching if you include Spring. That is more north. School districts is a bad way to define it. For example, Cy-Fair ISD stretches all the way down to Clay Road at Fry. Surely you don't think Clay Road is in Northwest Houston?

Here's GGP's profile for Willowbrook.

2000 - 802,367

2007 - 1,041,318

2012 - 1,185,435 (projected)

[Trae]

Where is the trade area map?

[mrfootball]

You're stretching if you include Spring. That is more north. School districts is a bad way to define it. For example, Cy-Fair ISD stretches all the way down to Clay Road at Fry. Surely you don't think Clay Road is in Northwest Houston?

Here's GGP's profile for Willowbrook.

2000 - 802,367

2007 - 1,041,318

2012 - 1,185,435 (projected)

Random musings: from a marketing perspective, a universe of over 1 Million people with an avg HH income over $80K is pretty remarkable. If we (UnIncNW) were our own city, we'd instantly become one of the largest cities in the state, boasting some of, if not, the best demographics in the nation for a city of over 1 million people.

Edited May 6, 2008 by mrfootball

[Trae]

Willowbrooks Trade Area includes parts of cities (Houston Jersey Village), and I doubt all of NW Harris County would be a city. Would be one giant suburban mess. Would probably be broken up into "Klein", "Cypress", "Fairbanks", etc.

[mrfootball]

Willowbrooks Trade Area includes parts of cities (Houston Jersey Village), and I doubt all of NW Harris County would be a city. Would be one giant suburban mess. Would probably be broken up into "Klein", "Cypress", "Fairbanks", etc.

Willowbrook's trade area is NW Harris County, the "Great Northwest"...the namesake of this, the most popular, of all HAIF Houston Metro subsections. As I've shown there are over 1 million people living in this community.

Whether it incorporated (if ever) as one big 800 lb gorilla or as smaller communities of 100,000-300,000 is something for another thread. Nonetheless. I grew up here in the early 70's, graduated HS in the early 90's, came back to Houston after college, worked and lived inside the loop for about 6 years and came back home to the GNW. I think this is one of the best burbs in Houston - a city with great burbs all over. There are others that feature a nice big master-planned community here and there, but overall this is the biggest and best burb in town. It's amazing how much it has grown.

Edited May 6, 2008 by mrfootball

[Trae]

Just wanted to see a map. That's all. The Great NW is made up of many different suburban communities, too. Another example would be Bay Area Houston (though not as large, the cities down there are incorporated).

[psilverot]

So what's actually going on with the mall?

[Vertigo58]

So what's actually going on with the mall?

Just yesterday there was a drive-by shooting either in front or very near it. Not sure if they ever caught them. From what we have seem and heard of that mall in the news it is becoming another Sharpstown fiasco. Rumors right?

[cnote]

Just yesterday there was a drive-by shooting either in front or very near it. Not sure if they ever caught them. From what we have seem and heard of that mall in the news it is becoming another Sharpstown fiasco. Rumors right?

There was a car to car shooting as a result of road rage...it wasn't gang or drug related...the mall is pretty far from a "Sharpstown Fiasco"

[pookrat]

The shooting was also not at the mall. It was down 1960 a ways near the Sports Authority and Jack in the Box at Grant and 1960. (That's where the cops were sitting anyways). And as mentioned, wasn't a drive by but a Road Rage incident which can happen anywhere nowadays...

Edited May 7, 2008 by pookrat

[brigantes]

Isn't the Jack in the Box and Sports Authority at Mills and 1960, one traffic light away from Willowbrook Mall? (Grant Road intersects SH 249, not FM 1960, near Methodist Hospital.)

[CDeb]

Isn't the Jack in the Box and Sports Authority at Mills and 1960, one traffic light away from Willowbrook Mall?

Yup.

[houstonmacbro]

Yup.

Yes, but technically not the mall ... actually that side of the street (with the strip mall and other businesses) is a bit more classier than the mall.

[brigantes]

I guess my point is that entire area is what I consider the Willowbrook Mall area. For lack of a better term, I think we all refer to that huge area of retail/commerce as Willowbrook or Willowbrook Mall.

I do not think we are at the Greenspoint stage yet, but something needs to happen or that's where we'll end up.

It's a sad state of affairs when you cannot watch a movie because of hoodlums fighting in the lobby and outdoor entrance to the movie and incorrigibles pulling the fire alarm. The last movie we attended, someone pulled the alarm and the theatre was evacuated THREE times during one movie. We never went back.

It's a sad state of affairs when a retired gentlemen decides to take in an afternoon matinee alone and is beaten so badly IN the theatre, he must be hospitalized.

It's a sad state of affairs when you cannot run into a department store at 5 p.m to pick up a quick gift without wondering if your vehicle will be vandalized. Last year, I was parked in the very FIRST parking space near a department store door at 5 p.m. and after 20 minutes, returned to my vehicle to find the back gate window bashed. City of Houston police never came. I waited, with a mall cop, for two hours and they finally called us back and asked if we wouldn't mind filing a report from home because they were too busy with other, bigger crimes.

And it is a sad state of affairs if people are taking shots at each other in locations and on streets I would very much consider to be a part of the Willowbrook Mall area.

Edited May 8, 2008 by brigantes

[brigantes]

One other thing....

I don't know if this attempt to hold the line at FM1960 is too little-too late. I know of some retailers and business owners moving off 1960 and further north....Alan Murphy to Vintage, Silkz to SC Road, etc......because the area has gotten too rough. Seems like some are taking the approach that rather than 'hold the line', they'll 'move the line'.

[mrfootball]

One other thing....

I don't know if this attempt to hold the line at FM1960 is too little-too late. I know of some retailers and business owners moving off 1960 and further north....Alan Murphy to Vintage, Silkz to SC Road, etc......because the area has gotten too rough. Seems like some are taking the approach that rather than 'hold the line', they'll 'move the line'.

I think the Champions centers are always going to be viable and nice. The demographics are there and the demand is there. With that said, NW Harris County has grown tremendously over the past 20 years and the epicenter is moving from 1960, northward as the NW suburbs stretch from 1960 all the way to Montgomery county so it makes sense for merchants to locate on Louetta at places like the Vintage more centrally located to the demographic they serve.

Edited May 8, 2008 by mrfootball

[houstonmacbro]

I guess my point is that entire area is what I consider the Willowbrook Mall area. For lack of a better term, I think we all refer to that huge area of retail/commerce as Willowbrook or Willowbrook Mall.

I do not think we are at the Greenspoint stage yet, but something needs to happen or that's where we'll end up.

It's a sad state of affairs when you cannot watch a movie because of hoodlums fighting in the lobby and outdoor entrance to the movie and incorrigibles pulling the fire alarm. The last movie we attended, someone pulled the alarm and the theatre was evacuated THREE times during one movie. We never went back.

It's a sad state of affairs when a retired gentlemen decides to take in an afternoon matinee alone and is beaten so badly IN the theatre, he must be hospitalized.

It's a sad state of affairs when you cannot run into a department store at 5 p.m to pick up a quick gift without wondering if your vehicle will be vandalized. Last year, I was parked in the very FIRST parking space near a department store door at 5 p.m. and after 20 minutes, returned to my vehicle to find the back gate window bashed. City of Houston police never came. I waited, with a mall cop, for two hours and they finally called us back and asked if we wouldn't mind filing a report from home because they were too busy with other, bigger crimes.

And it is a sad state of affairs if people are taking shots at each other in locations and on streets I would very much consider to be a part of the Willowbrook Mall area.

Agreed. I was splitting hairs. It's an odd area. Veterans at FM 1960 is relatively trashy. But a few blocks west you have posh Champions. Further west it gets a little less posh, but I certainly wouldn't compare it to Greenspoint. Not at this point any how.

For the record, what I understand, Greenspoint area is undergoing a MAJOR renovation. And not just the mall.

[mrfootball]

I went over to the Champions area tonight for dinner tonight and instantly thought about how ludicrous some of the comments on this thread are.

[brigantes]

I went over to the Champions area tonight for dinner tonight and instantly thought about how ludicrous some of the comments on this thread are.

For now. But I know Alan Murphy decided to get while the getting was good. And according to employees there, more of their neighboring retailers plan to leave as well. I do agree with the comments about retailers following their clientele. But then the question becomes why are their clientele moving away from the FM 1960 area?

Right now, Champions at 1960 is a little pocket of upscale commerce...but to the east and to the west....not so good. So how long can Champions hold out? We've lived in this area for 20 years and sometimes I'm taken aback when I think of how things used to be on FM 1960, when I would run my kids to the pediatrician down at Red Oak or pop in to the wallpaper store near Kuykendahl, and how things are now. From west of Stuebner to I-45, forget it. From Willowbrook past Fallbrook, forget it.

[mrfootball]

For now. But I know Alan Murphy decided to get while the getting was good. And according to employees there, more of their neighboring retailers plan to leave as well. I do agree with the comments about retailers following their clientele. But then the question becomes why are their clientele moving away from the FM 1960 area?

Right now, Champions at 1960 is a little pocket of upscale commerce...but to the east and to the west....not so good. So how long can Champions hold out? We've lived in this area for 20 years and sometimes I'm taken aback when I think of how things used to be on FM 1960, when I would run my kids to the pediatrician down at Red Oak or pop in to the wallpaper store near Kuykendahl, and how things are now. From west of Stuebner to I-45, forget it. From Willowbrook past Fallbrook, forget it.

I grew up in Greenwood Forest, Ponderosa Forest and Champion Forest so I know the area quite well. The nice neighborhoods along 1960 are still nice, as old as they are, they still look great. Every bit as nice as their sister Kickerillo developed neighborhoods in West Memorial (though they certainly haven't appreciated like those have in the past 5 years). Champions isn't a little pocket of upscale. It's a big pocket. It hasn't shrunk, it's grown. It's filling in the last few areas with relatively expensive homes now. Right now, they're tearing down and building million dollar homes in Champions and homes from $500K to $1M in/around Champion Forest and Vintage Lakes.

As for the rest of 1960...The biggest change along 1960 is the concentration of apartments. They've increased the density, traffic and interlopers. The Champions area is great and I like those centers near Champion Forest Drive. My mini-tour didn't take me past Stuebner. I do know that the stretch from Kuykendahl to I-45 has gotten pretty run-down retail-wise. FM1960 has become the Westheimer of the northwest. In fact, you have to consider that 1960 carries as much or more traffic than Westheimer today and there are a lot of stretches of Westheimer that make the worst stretches of 1960 look good in comparison. While there are well over a hundred nice neighborhoods north of FM 1960, there are a number of nice neighborhoods on the South side of FM 1960 like Greenwood Forest, Windermere Lakes, Wyndham Lakes, Heron Lakes, etc.

Nonetheless, 1960 today sits on the Southeast Edge of a much, much larger NW suburban community that has grown Northward and Westward with rings like Cypresswood, Louetta, Spring Cypress...stretching all the way to Spring Creek to the North and 529 to the South. I would think it would be smart for retailers to open locations to serve those newer areas, but as I drove by the nice centers around Champions, they were all packed with cars and business looked good.

Edited May 9, 2008 by mrfootball

[houstonmacbro]

Speaking of Champions, I drove south of 1960 the other weekend along Champions Forest Drive. Is that considered "Champions" as well? Beautiful homes there. Actually, some of the ones I saw were simply amazing.

[brigantes]

Yes...to my mind...Champions extends from the beltway side of 1960 (I'm thinking Kinsmen area) all the way north to SC Road (the direction of the expansion Mr. Football describes). In my post I am strictly speaking of commercial part of Champions which is located along FM 1960 (FM1960 and Willowbrook being the topic of discussion), not the expansion of of residential neighborhoods north to Louetta and SC Road. And I am lamenting primarily the condition of 1960 from east of Champions and from Willowbrook to almost Eldridge. To say those areas are have gotten 'pretty rundown' is putting it mildy....and they do flank the 1960 portion of Champions. If people in Champions are 'on notice' about the slide, then good on them. They should be.

[cnote]

Yes...to my mind...Champions extends from the beltway side of 1960 (I'm thinking Kinsmen area) all the way north to SC Road (the direction of the expansion Mr. Football describes). In my post I am strictly speaking of commercial part of Champions which is located along FM 1960 (FM1960 and Willowbrook being the topic of discussion), not the expansion of of residential neighborhoods north to Louetta and SC Road. And I am lamenting primarily the condition of 1960 from east of Champions and from Willowbrook to almost Eldridge. To say those areas are have gotten 'pretty rundown' is putting it mildy....and they do flank the 1960 portion of Champions. If people in Champions are 'on notice' about the slide, then good on them. They should be.

I'm sorry, but I am just not seeing what you guys are talking about...I think "pretty rundown" is a very applicable phrase for the shopping centers along 1960 with are getting up there in age now. Yeah, they built apartments and now there is a little more crime and undesirable looking cars in the area, but ghetto??? I don't think so, not even close. My wife and I spend a lot time over there eating at County line, shopping at Willowbrook even with the "newer" clientel. We have even seen movies at the AMC on the other side of 249. I go to REI all the time. We had our baby at Methodist Willowbrook. This area is not as bad as is being described here. I am sorry you had your car vandalized, but those things happen everywhere, at every mall, and it is a petty crime even though I know how violated and angry it makes you feel. And as many times as I have stopped at Willowbrook and run in to make a puchase, our cars have never been vandalized (eknock on wood).

In my opinion, hopefully the Mall will be renovated as it is sorely needed. And hopefully the work to beautify 1960 will trickle down to some of the aging shopping centers to get some facelifts.

I should note that I am only talking about the Willowbrook area, the closer you get to 45, the more and more I agree with most of these comments.