Dallas - Houston HSR Station

[august948]

Yup absolutely

 

Nah...TCR made the right decision.  No need to jeopardize the whole project just to go a few more miles.  A downtown station isn't THAT important.  Maybe later there will be a good business case to be made for pushing through.  Or maybe not.

[mfastx]

Nah...TCR made the right decision.  No need to jeopardize the whole project just to go a few more miles.  A downtown station isn't THAT important.  Maybe later there will be a good business case to be made for pushing through.  Or maybe not.

 

I think it was also about actually constructing a suitable station downtown, Dallas already has a station that could accommodate HSR.  They'd have to construct an entire station where real estate is most expensive. 

 

Maybe sometime in the future a new station will be constructed downtown and service will be extended, hopefully. 

[BeerNut]

I'm hoping it's like stations abroad with retail, hotel, and dining.  

[scarface]

But why does Houston have to settle? Houston needs to push this and fight a little harder to push this to it's core. Just like Dallas is.

 

Not trying to make this a Dallas/Houston thing, but it does seem like Dallas is very successful in bringing it's development to it's downtown area. Houston seems like its making some strides, but it isn't enough. It does get kind of flustering.

[ADCS]

But why does Houston have to settle? Houston needs to push this and fight a little harder to push this to it's core. Just like Dallas is.

 

Not trying to make this a Dallas/Houston thing, but it does seem like Dallas is very successful in bringing it's development to it's downtown area. Houston seems like its making some strides, but it isn't enough. It does get kind of flustering.

 

Who gets to be "Houston" in this case?

 

In other words, the people who are opposed to this tend to be the sorts of people who have the kind of pull to determine what "Houston" wants to do.

[Montrose1100]

But why does Houston have to settle? Houston needs to push this and fight a little harder to push this to it's core. Just like Dallas is.

Not trying to make this a Dallas/Houston thing, but it does seem like Dallas is very successful in bringing it's development to it's downtown area. Houston seems like its making some strides, but it isn't enough. It does get kind of flustering.

Scarface, south Dallas has massive amounts of empty land all the way to pretty much Downtown. It's the least developed area of the city. That's why they're getting a station Downtown. Northwest Houston is massively developed even if it's mostly suburbs. the closest you can get to Our Downtown to avoid established neighborhoods and busy streets is 610 @ 288. That's a lot of added miles and time to loop around Katy & sugar land plus the expense of getting from 610 to Downtown. Dallas you could zig-zag over I-45 to the trinity River without harming (or paying for), a fly.

Getting to Downtown from the Northwest mall you'd be crossing some of the most NIMBYest neighborhoods in our city. That's a lot of money spent in the courts, and a lot of negative press and public outcry this project doesn't need. If the HSR line was cutting through let's say Denton to Dallas, they wouldn't have a Downtown station either.

[cloud713]

yeah, how people can't comprehend the obstacles faced on the inner city segment of the Houston end of the line vs getting the train to downtown Dallas is beyond me.. its pretty straight forward if you know each city. south Dallas is desolate, and what people do live there are typically poor minorities who dont have a strong NIMBY/political backing.

[scarface]

Scarface, south Dallas has massive amounts of empty land all the way to pretty much Downtown. It's the least developed area of the city. That's why they're getting a station Downtown. Northwest Houston is massively developed even if it's mostly suburbs. the closest you can get to Our Downtown to avoid established neighborhoods and busy streets is 610 @ 288. That's a lot of added miles and time to loop around Katy & sugar land plus the expense of getting from 610 to Downtown. Dallas you could zig-zag over I-45 to the trinity River without harming (or paying for), a fly.

Getting to Downtown from the Northwest mall you'd be crossing some of the most NIMBYest neighborhoods in our city. That's a lot of money spent in the courts, and a lot of negative press and public outcry this project doesn't need. If the HSR line was cutting through let's say Denton to Dallas, they wouldn't have a Downtown station either.

 

Well is it unrealistic to think that there's a way they could build it alongside the Hardy Toll road or elevate it throughout some of those neighborhoods? They don't ever seem to have an issue when it comes to building massive freeways through our city. Somehow I'm just thinking they're using it as a cop-out.

[Montrose1100]

Well is it unrealistic to think that there's a way they could build it alongside the Hardy Toll road or elevate it throughout some of those neighborhoods? They don't ever seem to have an issue when it comes to building massive freeways through our city. Somehow I'm just thinking they're using it as a cop-out.

Money. Plain and simple. Freeways are paid for by us the tax payers, and this project is paid for with private investment. Look, I'm 100% supportive of a Downtown Houston station too, but I'm just trying to help you understand why it's not happening. It's not the Mayor, City Council, Chamber of Commerce, Local Politician, or GHP asleep at their desks. 

 

I'm afraid to ask, what do you think they're copping out of? 

[terra002]

Could do an underground downtown station. It would be expensive as hell, but why go cheap? 

[cspwal]

We need an eccentric oil tycoon to buy a tunnel boring machine

[mfastx]

But why does Houston have to settle? Houston needs to push this and fight a little harder to push this to it's core. Just like Dallas is.

 

Not trying to make this a Dallas/Houston thing, but it does seem like Dallas is very successful in bringing it's development to it's downtown area. Houston seems like its making some strides, but it isn't enough. It does get kind of flustering.

 

If Houston already had some form of commuter rail and had a suitable station downtown, then it would have had a better shot IMO.  Houston is just really behind in it's transit infrastructure, and has a joke of an Amshack station downtown.  

 

It really sucks, hopefully one day a better station is built downtown and the TCR line may be extended.  Hopefully. 

[C2H]

I agree with scarface and think it is somewhat of a copout to use that as a reason not to take the high speed rail downtown. It's not like it's straight development all the way down from the northside. There are some barren spots where there could've been other options; such as those suggested: tunneling, or elevating. Running it alongside the tollway wasn't a bad idea either, but I'm uncertain what kind of impact that would've had.

 

At least make plans to turn Northwest Mall into a nice mall/transit center with the option for a rapid lightrail line into downtown, and another route from the NW station right into the Uptown/Galleria area. Hey LIGHTBULB!!! Bring the planned Uptown BRT line up to there and this could be the push it needs to get federal $$$ to go ahead and convert it to lightrail. But hey, I forgot this is Houston. A rapid lightrail line into downtown from the mall probably wouldn't happen. They'll probably just end up running some shuttle vans and buses to do the job.

 

I don't mean to sound like a Debbie Downer, but when I learned of this HSR plan, I was excited that it might increase activity between our State's largest city centers. In a way, it just kind of defeats the purpose of our hopes of a more urban Houston for it not to go downtown. After all the development going in and around downtown: Hardy Rail Yards, Buffalo Bayou, Eado, Midtown seems all in vain.

[j_cuevas713]

So why is this getting built again? I would never use it unless I'm going to watch my te beat their team.

[BigFootsSocks]

Seriously?

[august948]

So why is this getting built again? I would never use it unless I'm going to watch my te beat their team.

 

That's one use for it.  I think their aim is to take some of the airline and possibly car traffic between here and Dallas.  I don't have much use for it either, but if I can get a round trip ticket cheap enough I might just ride it there and back one time for the experience.

 

I can imagine it might be popular during the one-after-next (after 2017) superbowl.  Also, for superbowls in Dallas.  Take it early in the day and return late at night after the game.  Could be comparable or cheaper than driving in and getting a hotel room.

Edited December 5, 2015 by august948

[Chi-Char-Hou-Dal]

Montrose "the closest you can get to Our Downtown to avoid established neighborhoods and busy streets is 610 @ 288."

 

My friend I work at an area of town closer than you described that is void of life and is full of roaming packs of dogs, trucks, diesel shops, landfills, superfund sites and Mexican beer joints that scare Mexicans I work with.

 

My friend welcome to McCarty Drive " Spoken like Jurassic Park"

 

Land is available and cheap - I'm talking about past moontower where not many here is familiar with.

 

On top of one of the active or non-active landfills the skyline view is so ridiculously perfect. If you have lost your sense of smell you might just make a home for yourself.

 

Cheers-

Lorenzo

Edited December 5, 2015 by Chi-Char-Hou-Dal

[Montrose1100]

Montrose "the closest you can get to Our Downtown to avoid established neighborhoods and busy streets is 610 @ 288."

 

My friend I work at an area of town closer than you described that is void of life and is full of roaming packs of dogs, trucks, diesel shops, landfills, superfund sites and Mexican beer joints that scare Mexicans I work with.

 

My friend welcome to McCarty Drive " Spoken like Jurassic Park"

 

Land is available and cheap - I'm talking about past moontower where not many here is familiar with.

 

On top of one of the active or non-active landfills the skyline view is so ridiculously perfect. If you have lost your sense of smell you might just make a home for yourself.

 

Cheers-

Lorenzo

Okay, you caught me. 610 @ 288 is the closest you can get without tearing down as many existing structures.

 

My point being is that we don't have the access that south Dallas has.

[Chi-Char-Hou-Dal]

I was drinking beer having fun - lol

[The Ozone Files]

 

The planned route for Texas Central Railway’s high-speed train between Houston and Dallas would only bring the train as far as the 610 Loop.

But the Gulf Coast Rail District says to make the system viable the train needs to come into downtown, or there has to be some sort of commuter rail option that would link downtown with the high-speed line.

The Rail District now wants to study the possibility of a rail line along the I-10 corridor that would get passengers close to the downtown Amtrak station.

Gulf Coast Rail District Executive Director Maureen Crocker says a train could possibly run on the median or along the embankments. Crocker adds if the high-speed rail line doesn’t have an easy connection into downtown it could cause problems for everyone.

“It’s going to put a lot of pressure on the roadway network right at 610 and I-10, which is already one of the most congested parts of this region,” says Crocker. 

http://www.houstonpublicmedia.org/articles/news/2015/12/08/130355/study-would-look-at-new-options-for-high-speed-rail-in-houston/

 

 

Edited December 9, 2015 by The Ozone Files

[august948]

I think they're making too much out of this.  So if TCR doesn't come downtown there's no way commuter rail will ever work?  Please.  Why have they even been discussing commuter rail then?  Why doesn't this apply to the airports?  If it doesn't go to Hobby or IAH, well then commuter rail just won't work either?  That's ridiculous.

[MaxConcrete]

I just attended Texas Central's public meeting in Cypress.

 

The map on display showed the alignment ending at the Northwest Transit Center at I-10 and North Post Oak. I spoke to a guy who appeared to be the lead guy for the alignment from the engineering perspective. So I asked him, "Is the station going to be at the transfer station?" He said nothing is final, but the Federal Railroad Administration's preference is to bring it to the Northwest Transit Station, and FRA is the ultimate authority on the alignment.

 

So then I asked him, "Is Texas Central's objective to bring it to the Northwest Transit Center, and would that be consistent with Texas Central's goal for real estate development around the station?" He was less decisive on this question, and he says some interests are promoting a site with more space like the Northwest Mall site. But at the end, he said yes, Texas Central does want to bring it to the Northwest Transit Center.

 

Many folks on this forum (including me) assumed that the Northwest Mall site or property close to the mall would be selected, but that assumption may be wrong. It looks to me like there is a strong chance the station will be further south at the transit center. While that would promote transit connectivity, it would seem to greatly reduce the attractiveness of redeveloping the Northwest Mall site. In my view, I would rather see a big real estate development around a station at the Northwest Mall site, with plenty of space for parking and good highway connections. A Northwest Mall station could be connected into the transit center, maybe with a dedicated bus lane.

[BigFootsSocks]

I don't see how the NWTC has enough space for the depot though. They might just buy up some of the leftover warehouse plots around that area I guess.

[august948]

I don't see how the NWTC has enough space for the depot though. They might just buy up some of the leftover warehouse plots around that area I guess.

 

Would that be something that could fall into eminent domain?

 

Edited December 11, 2015 by august948

[BigFootsSocks]

I mean, I guess, but the warehouses and manufacturing companies in that area wouldn't need to go to court, they'd be easily persuaded.

[ADCS]

I mean, I guess, but the warehouses and manufacturing companies in that area wouldn't need to go to court, they'd be easily persuaded.

 

It's mostly 30+ year old tilt-wall construction around there; i.e. already paid for. Land owners would jump at the opportunity to upgrade their facilities away from the traffic on TCR's dime.

 

We'll know things are getting serious when we start hearing about an Upper Post Oak District TIRZ.

[curbur]

I just attended Texas Central's public meeting in Cypress.

 

The map on display showed the alignment ending at the Northwest Transit Center at I-10 and North Post Oak. I spoke to a guy who appeared to be the lead guy for the alignment from the engineering perspective. So I asked him, "Is the station going to be at the transfer station?" He said nothing is final, but the Federal Railroad Administration's preference is to bring it to the Northwest Transit Station, and FRA is the ultimate authority on the alignment.

 

So then I asked him, "Is Texas Central's objective to bring it to the Northwest Transit Center, and would that be consistent with Texas Central's goal for real estate development around the station?" He was less decisive on this question, and he says some interests are promoting a site with more space like the Northwest Mall site. But at the end, he said yes, Texas Central does want to bring it to the Northwest Transit Center.

 

Many folks on this forum (including me) assumed that the Northwest Mall site or property close to the mall would be selected, but that assumption may be wrong. It looks to me like there is a strong chance the station will be further south at the transit center. While that would promote transit connectivity, it would seem to greatly reduce the attractiveness of redeveloping the Northwest Mall site. In my view, I would rather see a big real estate development around a station at the Northwest Mall site, with plenty of space for parking and good highway connections. A Northwest Mall station could be connected into the transit center, maybe with a dedicated bus lane.

 

Were there any issues raised for local concerns from Cypress residents there? Give me a few of their hot takes so that perhaps I won't have any new ones myself today.

 

[BigFootsSocks]

Yeah I'm missing out on any fresh takes from my fellow suburbanites

[Montrose1100]

Yeah I'm missing out on any fresh takes from my fellow suburbanites

Friends and family in cypress are too busy & concerned with their 1-2 hour commute down 290 to have even heard about the HSR line.

All jokes aside I haven't heard anything.

[cspwal]

Most things I've heard are disbelief that this will be actually built

[bobruss]

I'm just curious, is the Dallas terminal going to be located in downtown Dallas.

That would make sense, since they seem to have a better understanding of these types of issues and usually

get it done right.

I don't know how we always get pushed around and end up settling for second best all of the time instead

of just saying screw you, this is where we want it and making it happen.

Just like the Richmond rail. we should have just built it right down Richmond and let those people

pout. Get over it. This is a city of 6 million people and growing and we need to get these infrastructure

projects completed before it gets much denser and harder to accomplish.

[gmac]

Yeah, ok Bob, you just hop right in there and fund the legal battles that will inevitably crush you into dust. Houston is not Dallas.

[august948]

I'm just curious, is the Dallas terminal going to be located in downtown Dallas.

That would make sense, since they seem to have a better understanding of these types of issues and usually

get it done right.

I don't know how we always get pushed around and end up settling for second best all of the time instead

of just saying screw you, this is where we want it and making it happen.

Just like the Richmond rail. we should have just built it right down Richmond and let those people

pout. Get over it. This is a city of 6 million people and growing and we need to get these infrastructure

projects completed before it gets much denser and harder to accomplish.

 

My understanding is that the HSR station is in downtown Dallas because they've got a clear right of way and no significant development the direction it is coming in.  Dart was built in a similar manner without having to plow through existing well-to-do neighborhoods with political clout.  It doesn't have anything to do with Dallas doing things right.  It's just luck, and perhaps timidity, in choosing their rail corridors.

 

[BigFootsSocks]

Yeah, ok Bob, you just hop right in there and fund the legal battles that will inevitably crush you into dust. Houston is not Dallas.

I wanna write a really hot fresh take and say something snarky, but...yeah you're not wrong.

[Sparrow]

It's mostly 30+ year old tilt-wall construction around there; i.e. already paid for. Land owners would jump at the opportunity to upgrade their facilities away from the traffic on TCR's dime.

 

We'll know things are getting serious when we start hearing about an Upper Post Oak District TIRZ.

 

"Upper Post Oak District"--is that a name that is actually used in any circles, or did you just create that? If so, bravo my friend, bravo. It is very powerful and sophisticated, connecting to the Uptown brand, while at the same time differentiating and elevating itself. 

[ADCS]

"Upper Post Oak District"--is that a name that is actually used in any circles, or did you just create that? If so, bravo my friend, bravo. It is very powerful and sophisticated, connecting to the Uptown brand, while at the same time differentiating and elevating itself. 

 

Made it up, but it seems natural.

[islandofmind]

I think the NW Mall site or the transit center both work provided there is a light rail line along Washington Ave. to connect passengers to downtown and the rest of the Metro rail system. If it's at the Mall then they'll also need a connection to the BRT at the transit center. If these guys are prepared to build an iconic station that straddles an interstate highway in Dallas, they should have no objections to making significant contributions to getting their passengers to the place where they can most readily access the major points of interest without renting a car.

[BeerNut]

"Upper Post Oak District"--is that a name that is actually used in any circles, or did you just create that? If so, bravo my friend, bravo. It is very powerful and sophisticated, connecting to the Uptown brand, while at the same time differentiating and elevating itself. 

 

We can just call it by it's abbreviation.  UPOD

[Sparrow]

I just attended Texas Central's public meeting in Cypress.

 

The map on display showed the alignment ending at the Northwest Transit Center at I-10 and North Post Oak. I spoke to a guy who appeared to be the lead guy for the alignment from the engineering perspective. So I asked him, "Is the station going to be at the transfer station?" He said nothing is final, but the Federal Railroad Administration's preference is to bring it to the Northwest Transit Station, and FRA is the ultimate authority on the alignment.

 

So then I asked him, "Is Texas Central's objective to bring it to the Northwest Transit Center, and would that be consistent with Texas Central's goal for real estate development around the station?" He was less decisive on this question, and he says some interests are promoting a site with more space like the Northwest Mall site. But at the end, he said yes, Texas Central does want to bring it to the Northwest Transit Center.

 

Many folks on this forum (including me) assumed that the Northwest Mall site or property close to the mall would be selected, but that assumption may be wrong. It looks to me like there is a strong chance the station will be further south at the transit center. While that would promote transit connectivity, it would seem to greatly reduce the attractiveness of redeveloping the Northwest Mall site. In my view, I would rather see a big real estate development around a station at the Northwest Mall site, with plenty of space for parking and good highway connections. A Northwest Mall station could be connected into the transit center, maybe with a dedicated bus lane.

 

http://www.texascentral.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/12/OpenHouseExhibit_22x34_StripMap_Harris_5_reduced.pdf

 

Map of proposed alignment ending at NW TC.

[BigFootsSocks]

Technically that's north of the Transit center, but it cuts through that almost-complete apartment complex, which leads me to think that they don't have a specific site in mind, so it's probably means the station will be in that area.

[curbur]

http://www.texascentral.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/12/OpenHouseExhibit_22x34_StripMap_Harris_5_reduced.pdf

 

Map of proposed alignment ending at NW TC.

 

Well that alignment seems to segment the NW mall site from where passengers will be let off.

[cspwal]

It might be possible for the station (where the trains arrive and depart, letting passengers off, letting people on, etc) might be separate from the TCR yard, where the trains go to sleep when not in use and get washed and stuff.  

Somewhere along the line there will probably be a yard for storage of cars and end units, and enough track to assemble trains not on the mainline.  Even if they only run trains of one length so never need to swap cars, they most definitely won't be running the same frequency of trains at 9 am and at 2 am.

 

 

 

Edit:

Looked on the map, and a station at the NW transit center would be near Dave and Busters, Ikea, and a movie theater, so we're good on development 

Edited December 15, 2015 by cspwal

[PeopleAreStrange]

Both NW transit center and NW mall are bad locations for people arriving in Houston if their destination is downtown.

 

Downtown Houston has the highest concentration of office buildings and hotels that you could walk to after getting off the train.

 

[Ross]

Both NW transit center and NW mall are bad locations for people arriving in Houston if their destination is downtown.

Downtown Houston has the highest concentration of office buildings and hotels that you could walk to after getting off the train.

When my office was downtown, most business visitors stayed at hotels near the Galleria. Downtown is overrated.

[Howard Huge]

When my office was downtown, most business visitors stayed at hotels near the Galleria. Downtown is overrated.

Ok, well, there ya have it.

This little tidbit of anecdotal evidence from "Ross" has just shut all of us dumbass Downtown boosters down for good.

Let's just pack it all up and close up shop, might as well give up on hoping anything cool ever comes to downtown.

You see, most business visitors at Ross' office stayed in hotels near the Galleria. Surely that means that ALL business visitors going to a downtown office are staying in Galleria area Hotels. I don't know who's filling up all those downtown Hotels, or why they're building even more because they claim theres a "shortage of hotel rooms in the CBD", but Ross knows the real deal.

You heard it here first, downtown is overrated.

Edited December 16, 2015 by Howard Huge

[Houston19514]

When my office was downtown, most business visitors stayed at hotels near the Galleria. Downtown is overrated.

How many years ago was that?

[gmac]

I was recently involved with a fairly decent-sized downtown convention. Nearly every out-of-towner I spoke with said they wished the event was held somewhere interesting. They liked the tunnels, but were perplexed that the businesses pretty much shut down at 3 pm. Should have had it at the Galleria JW Marriott!

[Ross]

How many years ago was that?

This year

[jgriff]

Both NW transit center and NW mall are bad locations for people arriving in Houston if their destination is downtown.

 

Downtown Houston has the highest concentration of office buildings and hotels that you could walk to after getting off the train.

There are buses that leave the NWTC multiple times an hour that will get you to downtown in about 10 minutes. Thousands of people ride them everyday. I rode it everyday for years.

[ADCS]

There are buses that leave the NWTC multiple times an hour that will get you to downtown in about 10 minutes. Thousands of people ride them everyday. I rode it everyday for years.

 

TCR could run a business-class shuttle service themselves, if they so desired.

 

Also, with respect to the rail yard, I'm guessing that will be near the planned Shiro station, both because the land is there, and it's a great way to shore up local political support (jobs).