Dallas - Houston HSR Station

[islandofmind]

This is true, to the fact that at least as a few years ago, the Baytown Best Buy stores deliberately put iPods and other consumer electronics close to the front because they're often visited by international visitors who spend their limited shore time buying consumer electronics that are substantially more expensive elsewhere. But HSR stations aren't international, they connect with Dallas, unless you consider Dallas to be another country.

 

I'm pretty sure that some of the "The station should be downtown" sentiment stems from the fact that Dallas has theirs downtown, but besides things like access and all, it still wouldn't work in Houston's favor because the downtowns aren't comparable. Instead of comparing Downtown to Uptown, if we compared the Dallas Downtown to Houston Downtown, it's not a contest. Dallas Downtown has museums, performing arts spaces, actual shopping (Neiman Marcus, at least), American history (Dealey Plaza), and a farmer's market, all within reasonable walking distance. Houston's downtown has a bunch of skyscrapers, some bars, the tunnels (one of my favorite things about Houston's downtown, personally, but shut after 3 pm and on weekends), performing arts spaces, and a bunch of often-empty stadiums surrounded by parking lots. That's not to say Dallas is better than Houston (we are not getting into that) but downtown to downtown, no contest...a downtown Houston station could still come across as inferior.

 

That's why I think that the NW Mall/Uptown connection is a better bet overall. Change the playing field and don't compete directly.

 

This issue is transportation. Uptown is as connected as it can be assuming the BRT is completed.

 

The lack of a connection to Downtown is the problem.

 

Aside from that, your assessment of the amenities available in Downtown Houston is lacking but those have already been enumerated ad nauseam.

[JJxvi]

Like I mentioned earlier...this tourism argument is folly. Most travel between Dallas and Houston is business day travel.  

 

Any travelers on the train are going to be mostly businessmen and lawyerly types going to Downtown, Uptown, Energy Corridor, Greenway Plaza or some other miscellaneous location (like a hotel uptown for a conference, or visiting a plant, or a warehouse at a another random location etc).

 

Downtown has about 40 million square feet of office compared to about 40 million between Uptown and the Energy corridor NW transit center is a well suited site for pretty much anywhere except travel to the Medical center which is closer to Hobby.  

[JJxvi]

Metro already has a plan for rail between downtown and the northwest transit center.  It was originally slated to be built in Phase 2 and was one of the lines we voted on in the Phase 2 referendum but they never even tried to build it.

[Houston19514]

Metro already has a plan for rail between downtown and the northwest transit center.  It was originally slated to be built in Phase 2 and was one of the lines we voted on in the Phase 2 referendum but they never even tried to build it.

 

To clarify, the line to the Northwest Transit Center that was included in the vote was the Uptown Line.  Yes, it did technically connect downtown by rail to the Northwest Transit Center, but it would be a long ride.  Uptown Line to University Line to Red Line.  I think it's correct it was at times referred to as a Phase 2, but I don't think it was part of what we voted on.

 

[islandofmind]

To clarify, the line to the Northwest Transit Center that was included in the vote was the Uptown Line.  Yes, it did technically connect downtown by rail to the Northwest Transit Center, but it would be a long ride.  Uptown Line to University Line to Red Line.

 

 

This would be a tortured route to downtown assuming a mode change BRT/Rail and a couple of other line transfers. Long ride indeed.

[JJxvi]

To clarify, the line to the Northwest Transit Center that was included in the vote was the Uptown Line.  Yes, it did technically connect downtown by rail to the Northwest Transit Center, but it would be a long ride.  Uptown Line to University Line to Red Line.  I think it's correct it was at times referred to as a Phase 2, but I don't think it was part of what we voted on.

 

 

You're wrong.  There were SIX corridors for Phase 2 that we voted on.  

 

"North Hardy"  which is the built extension of the red line to Northline Mall

 

"Southeast" partially built as the purple line

 

"Harrisburg" partially built as the green line

 

"Westpark" which was from Wheeler Station to the Westpark TC. Stalled never built line called the University line.

 

"Uptown" which was from Westpark TC to Northwest TC.

 

"Inner Katy" which was described on the ballot as "Approximately 7.4 miles westward from Downtown tying into the Uptown/West Loop line at the Northwest Transit Center. Serves Washington Avenue and the Heights areas. This segment or line will have approximately 6 stations."

[JJxvi]

EXHIBIT A-4 METRORail PHASE II

METRORail Phase II generally consists of the following light rail segments or lines, including associated vehicles and facilities:

 

North Hardy • Approximately 5.4 miles from University of Houston-Downtown through the Near Northside neighborhoods to Northline Mall, serving Downtown, Moody Park, and Houston Community College at Northline. This segment or line will have approximately 4 stations.

 

Southeast • Approximately 9.9 miles through Downtown serving the University of Houston Central Campus, Texas Southern University and Palm Center ending at Griggs at the South Loop 610, including an approximate 1.5-mile connection into Downtown and an approximate 2.8-mile branch to the Sunnyside community along Cullen to Bellfort. These extensions, including the Sunnyside branch, will have approximately 13 stations.

 

Harrisburg • Approximate 6-mile branch off the Southeast line that extends east from Dowling through the East End to the Magnolia Transit Center, then turning southward and extending to the Gulfgate Center and the Gulfgate area. This segment or line will have approximately 4 stations.

 

Westpark • Approximately 6.6 miles westward from the Wheeler station on Phase I METRORail to the Hillcroft Transit Center, serving Greenway Plaza, West University, Bellaire and the Uptown/Galleria area. This segment or line will have approximately 4 stations.

 

Uptown/West Loop • Approximately 4.4 miles north from Westpark along Post Oak Blvd. and the West Loop 610 to the Northwest Transit Center. Serves the Galleria and Uptown businesses on Post Oak Boulevard. This segment or line will have approximately 7 stations.

 

Inner Katy • Approximately 7.4 miles westward from Downtown tying into the Uptown/West Loop line at the Northwest Transit Center. Serves Washington Avenue and the Heights areas. This segment or line will have approximately 6 stations.

[Houston19514]

You're wrong.  There were SIX corridors for Phase 2 that we voted on.  

 

"North Hardy"  which is the built extension of the red line to Northline Mall

 

"Southeast" partially built as the purple line

 

"Harrisburg" partially built as the green line

 

"Westpark" which was from Wheeler Station to the Westpark TC. Stalled never built line called the University line.

 

"Uptown" which was from Westpark TC to Northwest TC.

 

"Inner Katy" which was described on the ballot as "Approximately 7.4 miles westward from Downtown tying into the Uptown/West Loop line at the Northwest Transit Center. Serves Washington Avenue and the Heights areas. This segment or line will have approximately 6 stations."

 

I stand corrected.  We indeed voted on the Inner Katy line.  We just didn't vote on any funding for it.  In the same sense, we apparently also voted on extending the red line to Greenspoint and Bush airport, the Southeast line to Hobby Airport, and the Southwest commuter line from Fannin South to the Harris County line, and other light rail and commuter line extensions/additions.  http://wattsupwiththat.com/2012/07/18/what-else-did-the-97-of-scientists-say/

[Visitor]

From recent conversations i was privy to with metro and gulf coast rail district, there are no near term plans to build the inner katy line. This doesn't preclude it from happening, just isn't a priority at the moment.

There are a couple of groups pushing this though, and some new groups being formed to move rail development in Houston along.

[JJxvi]

I don't think they have near term plans to actually build anything.

[Visitor]

Exactly, they are too proud of their buses...

[Houston19514]

Focus shifts to stretching bullet train to downtown

[JJxvi]

Again, that article is hilarious because the "plan" to resolve this "how to get to downtown" from the Northwest TC crisis has existed on paper for more than a decade and we all even voted on it.

[JJxvi]

The beginning of that article is almost ridiculous, it sounds much more like all of the local transportation agencies are getting together to "study" to prove to the feds and TCR that THEY should pay to move their station downtown rather than any kind of planning among those agencies about how they would plan to link up with TCR.

[jgriff]

You are absolutely correct with regard to the Galleria being popular with foreigners.  Sadly, you then slip in to delusional territory when you state that rich people from Houston don't shop there.  That is silliness.

Maybe Neiman Marcus.

 

The Galleria is not a location for the really rich to shop. I used to walk through it multiple times a day. It's for quinceaneras now. Without South Americans that place would be dead. 

[BigFootsSocks]

Hey man, we can knock the absurdity and perhaps redundancy of the article and its proposition, but if that's the kind of political maneuvering that's necessary to get a rail extension for METRO to the HCR station, then I'm not complaining.

[j_cuevas713]

Hey man, we can knock the absurdity and perhaps redundancy of the article and its proposition, but if that's the kind of political maneuvering that's necessary to get a rail extension for METRO to the HCR station, then I'm not complaining.

Took the words out of my mouth! 

[Houston19514]

Maybe Neiman Marcus.

The Galleria is not a location for the really rich to shop. I used to walk through it multiple times a day. It's for quinceaneras now. Without South Americans that place would be dead.

Riiiiggghhht. LOL

[BigFootsSocks]

Stereotypes riiiigggghhht? LOL

[TxDave]

As a likely passenger to Houston on this route, I would primarily be happy for quick access to any stop.

However, I would prefer, and be more motivated to travel to a more vibrant location than the proposed former mall site at a freeway intersection. Even the easiest connections would not be the same as arriving in a center of action.

That said, the end of line connections should not only be designed for business travelers, but also to make Houston easy to acces for leisure travelers who might not otherwise take a chance to visit or know where they could go around town

An airport type endpoint - with less than simple 'ground transportation' requirements - would dilute the benefits of the quick train ride. Hopefully lemonade can be made from any lemons!

[BigFootsSocks]

They've been open about building up the area around both stations with mixed-use type developments

[MaxConcrete]

I just attended the meeting. The crowd was much larger than previous meetings, filling the room before the meeting officially started at 6:30. The room had bad acoustics so it was very loud and difficult to have a conversation.

 

Bottom line: there is no new information since the last public meeting in December. The representative I spoke to said the exact location for the Houston station is still under study, and could be anywhere from Northwest Mall to the Northwest Transit Center.

 

The key to getting good information at these meetings is to find a person who really knows what is going on, such as a project manager or lead engineer. Many of the representatives available to answer questions are staff members of the consulting firms, and they often have ancillary roles in the project, only knowing details about their specific area. Tonight I was not able to find a knowledgeable person regarding the station location or design details, partly due to the crowd and noise, and also because there was a limited number of people from the engineering team. (Other reps are from the survey, environmental, or public relations depts.)

 

But I did press one engineering rep to find out if anything is new on the design along Hempstead Road. Details are not final, but efforts remain focused on the elevated structure on the north side of the Union Pacific railroad. The representative said they would not infringe on the UP right-of-way, including no use of "air rights" (ie allowing the elevated structure to overhang the UP right-of-way). He said Texas Central would need to use the full width of the elevated train structure on the south side of Hempstead Road, so they will need 50 feet of the Hempstead Road right-of-way. He said there are discussions with the City of Houston, since COH owns the Hempstead right-of-way. He also said Hempstead travel lanes would not be underneath the north side of the elevated structure. Since the Hempstead Road right-of-way is about 100 feet, that would leave only 50 feet for Hempstead Road, assuming no right-of-way acquisition. That's enough for 3 lanes and sidewalks. I'm also thinking this could make the future planned Hempstead tollway infeasible because much more property will need to be acquired on the north side of Hempstead Road.

 

The rep also mentioned they are looking at preserving a potential commuter rail line corridor underneath the elevated structure. Presumably it would be one track on each side of a center column. But that idea seemed to be very preliminary at this point.

 

Outside Beltway 8, Hempstead Road does not exist, so I asked the rep what they are planning. At this point the rep became ticked off by my questions and started ignoring me.

 

It will be interesting to see what is planned outside BW 8. I don't think they can place the elevated structure between the US 290 frontage road and main lanes because the space will be very tight when the expansion is complete. So they'll need to acquire right-of-way on the south side of the railroad tracks.

[BigFootsSocks]

Ok so you're clearly confused on the whole ROW situation...The Cuty wouldn't just sell 50 ft of ROW to TCR and turn Hempstead into a three lane road. That's laughably ridiculous; what would happen, is that TCR buys 50 ft of ROW north of Hempstead and Hempstead is shifted over 50 ft to accommodate the standard lanes. Thus, if HXTRA still wants to build a tollway, they're buying approximately the same total amount of land as they did before.

As for the rep getting "ticked off", I doubt that was his ego and was more so the fact that there is still so much preliminary design underway that asking concrete questions like that is relatively pointless.

Thanks for going to the meeting though.

[Sparrow]

FWIW, the FAQ facts section on the Texas Central website now is updated slightly to provide some insight to the question of the Houston station location:

 

"In Houston, the station is planned for the area along the 610 Loop between 290 and I-10."

 

Sure, it may just be the choice of wording, but things seem to be leaning more towards a NW TC adjacent location just as the Alignment Map suggests.

[IronTiger]

Ok so you're clearly confused on the whole ROW situation...The Cuty wouldn't just sell 50 ft of ROW to TCR and turn Hempstead into a three lane road. That's laughably ridiculous; what would happen, is that TCR buys 50 ft of ROW north of Hempstead and Hempstead is shifted over 50 ft to accommodate the standard lanes. Thus, if HXTRA still wants to build a tollway, they're buying approximately the same total amount of land as they did before.

As for the rep getting "ticked off", I doubt that was his ego and was more so the fact that there is still so much preliminary design underway that asking concrete questions like that is relatively pointless.

Thanks for going to the meeting though.

 

I'm not sure the "same amount of land" works that way even accounting for land values. Just as an example, 50 feet would shave off parking spaces and green space, 50 more feet would start seeing building demolitions, which would raise the price considerably.

[BigFootsSocks]

Yeah I get that, it's a valid point, but I don't see TXDOT signing off on a decreased lane version of Hempstead.

[IronTiger]

Yeah I get that, it's a valid point, but I don't see TXDOT signing off on a decreased lane version of Hempstead.

I'll have to look, but I think that may have been one of the plans all along.

[BigFootsSocks]

Nothing has been approved yet lol

[IronTiger]

Nothing has been approved yet lol

I know, but you were just swearing up and down they'd never reduce the capacity of Hempstead Road, when in reality, that's probably in the cards.

[BigFootsSocks]

The absence of approval does not back up my claim just as much as it does not back up yours! You're doing literally the exact same thing you accuse me of.

You, however, do not have the pleasure/experience with working with TXDOT. They are not going to reduce the lanes on a highly-traveled corridor for a private project that won't be accessible to the people immediately on this stretch of road (unless of course they buy a ticket to Dallas and actually ride the train) because the lawsuits and PR battle that would result from such a foolish idea would be insane. You don't even need experience with TXDOT; that's just common sense. In reality, no, it's not.