East River: Mixed-Use Development By Midway

[__nevii]

4 hours ago, jmitch94 said:

The comment you replied to is a Monty Python quote edited to fit this scenario. 

🙃 yep I see it now. Looks like my age has gotten to me — the movie came out over two decades prior to my birth. There are some old movies that I watched, but apart from the scene with the "witch trial/duck", I've never seen Monty Python.

"... but if those buildings float in water, then they weight the same as a duck. If those buildings weigh the same as a duck, then they are made of wood. The buildings weigh the same as a duck. Therefore..."

Edited December 10, 2022 by __nevii

[innerloop]

All kidding aside, this is always going to be a battle. Humans like to build next to rivers and bayous for functional and aesthetic reasons, but rivers hate to stay in their banks. They meander.  So this project will progress and we'll gain new bayou trails and nice views because we have the technology to do so, but there will be consequences. Bulkheads and embankment maintenance will be needed and there will be changes to the sediment deposition that no one can predict.

 

But I'm all for this project, do it. Just keep in mind that building along a bayou is never a one-and-done proposition. We should expect that there will be failures and that things will need to be redone from time to time. As a geoscientist I'm saying that the need to redo things in the future is a foreseeable event that needs to be planned for and budgeted. The need to make future changes are not "failures" per se, but rather just a cost of doing business.

 

So don't be surprised or too harsh on the developers when something big or small detaches and slides into the bayou during a high water event. Anyone who thinks that this can be prevented 100% is either an over-confident engineer and/or lacks a healthy respect for the power of water and nature to reshape our landscape.

[hindesky]

[monarch]

^^^ @hindesky outstanding pics!

[cityliving]

Edited December 18, 2022 by cityliving

[toxtethogrady]

It's looking very much like the site plans. What are the chances for H-E-B or another grocery to grab one of the retail spaces?

[hindesky]

Different vantage point this time, from Clinton Dr.

Every single time I go by here there is the ever present smell of raw sewage, I don't see how the people in the townhomes can stand it.💩🤢

The TAS tower crane has been taken down.

A new pad for another building.

 

[JBTX]

My understanding re: sewer smell is that the sewage mains are right under Clinton. Personally, I've never smelled it *all the time,* just some times, but I'm not there too often.

Interestingly myself and a few coworkers all live within a half mile of each other. Two of us are south of the bayou (including one right on the south bank), one is north. The guy on the north side smells it often too.

[Naviguessor]

I live just off of Clinton (at Sydnor) and the sewer does often vent at a specific place on Clinton.  It's from the manhole on the street, over the Main Sewer line, that you can see just at the lower left hand corner of Hindesky's last photo. It's a problem.  

The building pad in the photo is for Midway's East River offices, I believe.  I bet that they will ask the city to address the sewer gas issue.  It'll be a marketing problem. 

[Arbor Street]

I don't have anything productive to add, I just want to say how dope it is that something of this scale is being built in Houston! Hope to see more by the end of the decade.

[JClark54]

On 12/18/2022 at 8:57 AM, toxtethogrady said:

It's looking very much like the site plans. What are the chances for H-E-B or another grocery to grab one of the retail spaces?

A Midway VP appeared on the Chron's " Looped In" podcast a few months ago. She answered first for grocers generally and then for H-E-B specifically. 

 VP: “We had conversions with all major grocers, and at this point they feel there aren’t enough rooftops to make it work.” 

Interviewer: " Come on, HEB." 

VP: (Laughs) "We’ve tried, a lot, and they’re not ready."

In another interview, a different Midway rep said the unique connectivity characteristics of close-in east end areas make it harder to attract certain brands. 

Edited December 22, 2022 by JClark54

[004n063]

1 hour ago, JClark54 said:

A Midway VP appeared on the Chron's " Looped In" podcast a few months ago. She answered first for grocers generally and then for H-E-B specifically. 

 VP: “We had conversions with all major grocers, and at this point they feel there aren’t enough rooftops to make it work.” 

Interviewer: " Come on, HEB." 

VP: (Laughs) "We’ve tried, a lot, and they’re not ready."

In another interview, a different Midway rep said the unique connectivity characteristics of close-in east end areas make it harder to attract certain brands. 

Anyone want to take a stab at explaining why "unique connectivity characteristics of close-in" places would make an area less appealing? Is it the proximity to one of the fastest growing neighborhoods in the loop? Is it the area's total lack of competitors? The fact that the site is planned/expected to have citywide gravity? What am I missing?

Edited December 22, 2022 by 004n063

[Houston19514]

2 hours ago, JClark54 said:

A Midway VP appeared on the Chron's " Looped In" podcast a few months ago. She answered first for grocers generally and then for H-E-B specifically. 

 VP: “We had conversions with all major grocers, and at this point they feel there aren’t enough rooftops to make it work.” 

Interviewer: " Come on, HEB." 

VP: (Laughs) "We’ve tried, a lot, and they’re not ready."

In another interview, a different Midway rep said the unique connectivity characteristics of close-in east end areas make it harder to attract certain brands. 

 

20 minutes ago, 004n063 said:

Anyone want to take a stab at explaining why "unique connectivity characteristics of close-in" places would make an area less appealing? Is it the proximity to one of the fastest growing neighborhoods in the loop? Is it the area's total lack of competitors? The fact that the site is planned/expected to have citywide gravity? What am I missing?

Better yet, anyone want to take a stab at explaining what "unique connectivity characteristics of close-in east end areas" is supposed to mean?

[Naviguessor]

The location can be a challenge to get to from downtown, Eado and East and 5th Ward, due to multiple & Problematic rail crossings, lack of direct streets.  If your coming West from I-10, from east down Navigation or Clinton, or down Jensen your good.  From elsewhere (where most of the money is)...I just gets complicated.  In the end, I just don't think that the demographics/average income levels are there yet...especially to justify a full scale HEB. It's all changing, and lots of roof tops are under construction or planned...connectivity issues are supposedly being addressed...but, for now, we wait.  I hope not for much longer.  I want it as much as anyone.  

[Urbannizer]

They should reach out to Trader Joe’s. I can see that doing well here.

[004n063]

22 minutes ago, Naviguessor said:

The location can be a challenge to get to from downtown, Eado and East and 5th Ward, due to multiple & Problematic rail crossings, lack of direct streets.  If your coming West from I-10, from east down Navigation or Clinton, or down Jensen your good.  From elsewhere (where most of the money is)...I just gets complicated.  In the end, I just don't think that the demographics/average income levels are there yet...especially to justify a full scale HEB. It's all changing, and lots of roof tops are under construction or planned...connectivity issues are supposedly being addressed...but, for now, we wait.  I hope not for much longer.  I want it as much as anyone.  

I would assume that the main catchment would just be EaDo, Eastwood, 2nd Ward, and 5th Ward.  But that's a lot, no? I mean, Midtown Whole Foods seems to be doing well, and all it has is some of Midtown and some of Montrose...

[Naviguessor]

16 minutes ago, Urbannizer said:

They should reach out to Trader Joe’s. I can see that doing well here.

I agree.  Certainly would not require as much traffic as a full service grocery.  My understanding, however, is that TJ's has very strict demographic requirement for their locations.   That's not to say, that one of their stores would not be well received and utilized here...it would.  

[004n063]

3 minutes ago, Naviguessor said:

I agree.  Certainly would not require as much traffic as a full service grocery.  My understanding, however, is that TJ's has very strict demographic requirement for their locations.   That's not to say, that one of their stores would not be well received and utilized here...it would.  

Am I crazy for wanting a Fiesta there?

[jhjones74]

50 minutes ago, Naviguessor said:

The location can be a challenge to get to from downtown, Eado and East and 5th Ward, due to multiple & Problematic rail crossings, lack of direct streets.  If you’re coming West from I-10, from east down Navigation or Clinton, or down Jensen you’re good.  From elsewhere (where most of the money is)...I just gets complicated.  In the end, I just don't think that the demographics/average income levels are there yet...especially to justify a full scale HEB. It's all changing, and lots of roof tops are under construction or planned...connectivity issues are supposedly being addressed...but, for now, we wait.  I hope not for much longer.  I want it as much as anyone.  

Agreed, living downtown it’s not exactly easy getting over here, like 10 min drive even though on a map you’d think less than 5 min. And transit isn’t really an option. Selfishly I’d rather see a bigger grocery store come to downtown before other areas, and I would argue Houston should be focused on creating density within downtown and other existing neighborhoods first. I’m worried Midway will just turn this development into another citycentre, furthering the patchwork of sprawl that is Houston

[j_cuevas713]

46 minutes ago, jhjones74 said:

Agreed, living downtown it’s not exactly easy getting over here, like 10 min drive even though on a map you’d think less than 5 min. And transit isn’t really an option. Selfishly I’d rather see a bigger grocery store come to downtown before other areas, and I would argue Houston should be focused on creating density within downtown and other existing neighborhoods first. I’m worried Midway will just turn this development into another citycentre, furthering the patchwork of sprawl that is Houston

Its' def going to become it's own CityCentre style development but there's a major difference between CityCentre in far west Houston and this project. I've always complained that a development like CityCentre should have been built closer to Downtown or even Midtown. The areas surrounding Downtown should look like East River, that's what you ultimately want. All of the new development up to this point in this part of town has been urban and dense. I don't see that changing anytime soon. 

Edited December 22, 2022 by j_cuevas713

[Houston19514]

34 minutes ago, jhjones74 said:

Agreed, living downtown it’s not exactly easy getting over here, like 10 min drive even though on a map you’d think less than 5 min. And transit isn’t really an option. Selfishly I’d rather see a bigger grocery store come to downtown before other areas, and I would argue Houston should be focused on creating density within downtown and other existing neighborhoods first. I’m worried Midway will just turn this development into another citycentre, furthering the patchwork of sprawl that is Houston

10 minutes to travel 2 or 3 miles is evidence of connectivity problems?  My goodness, we are spoiled with how easy it is to get around our central city. 

[j_cuevas713]

19 minutes ago, Houston19514 said:

10 minutes to travel 2 or 3 miles is evidence of connectivity problems?  My goodness, we are spoiled with how easy it is to get around our central city. 

I def agree with that sentiment but yeah at the moment it's not the easiest development to travel to other than in a car. You can get to the site by bike along the trails, but that area around Jensen is sketchy with the homeless encampment. I've rode to that area many times on my bike on the streets and it's not the most seamless route. It would be nice to see what plans there are for Navigation/Jensen to make it a more multimodal street. 

Edited December 22, 2022 by j_cuevas713

[Naviguessor]

I really don't see that East River is competing with downtown or will detract from downtown.  It close, but it is separate.  It's not like Eado, which operates almost in unison, or perhaps competes with downtown, in terms of nightlife.  Transportation and road connections are awkward, especially when there is a Game or Match, or Event at any of the stadiums Convention Center or Arena which separate the districts.   Becoming connected to surrounding areas is something that East River will have to overcome to allure folks from more than a mile away.  But, it is building off of a lot of energy in the area and will have enough to it, to make it stand alone...and, I believe, that it will have a unique vibe due to its location on the River/Bayou and it will be connected directly with Jensen Street Bridge and a pedestrian bridge at Gregg, to Navigation, which will be symbiotic.   It does appear that Midway is struggling a bit to confirm tenants, but perhaps this is an opening for smaller, more localized businesses, retailers and restaurateurs to get into a quality development that they otherwise would not be able to manage, and create a more unique, interesting district.  The last thing that I would want is the same list of chain restaurants and shops that exist at City Center to occupy ER.  I just wouldn't go very often.  

[JBTX]

2 hours ago, Naviguessor said:

I agree.  Certainly would not require as much traffic as a full service grocery.  My understanding, however, is that TJ's has very strict demographic requirement for their locations.   That's not to say, that one of their stores would not be well received and utilized here...it would.  

$100k/median household income, yes. As much as I love it here in East End we are definitely not the TJ target area.

[JClark54]

23 hours ago, Houston19514 said:

10 minutes to travel 2 or 3 miles is evidence of connectivity problems?  My goodness, we are spoiled with how easy it is to get around our central city. 

This must be a joke comment. 

Freight rail activity in the east end is not a minor inconvenience. I'm not a train hater, but I understand how it affects the area. 

Train blockages can profoundly impact traffic during peak periods or situations where numerous lines are blocked for hours at the same time.

The Galveston subdivision was blocked for 15 hours or greater three times in the last six months. The east belt was blocked for 23 hours by a single train this year. Prolonged blockages have been shown to keep kids from getting to school, and HFD wrote to the FRA that train blockages have caused emergency response times to jump from the stated goal of 10 minutes or less to 45 minutes or more 1,500 times this year -- through the third quarter 2022. The railroads claim first-responders get preferential treatment (if they call, the train will move or be broken, they say). If it takes first-responders 45 minutes, the above 10-minute claim is in no way grounded in reality. 

The latest TxDOT Houston region freight rail study found the uptick in stopped trains combined with consist length increases has resulted in an $800 million economic loss for east Houston businesses -- commercial and industrial. The study identified myriad roads that need separation to improve connectivity -- the same roads as all prior studies dating back to 2011 (Sampson/York/Hirsch/Waco, Lockwood, Commerce, new Navigation tunnel to replace the aging one) -- but there's a well-documented history of these projects stalling as a result of railroad protest over what they state will be negative impacts on daily operations during construction. 

East River is on a stretch of the bayou along a rail line between Towers 5 and 86, which is commonly blocked by stopped trains for hours at a time practically daily. If the Houston line is also blocked, the development is not completely isolated but reachable by only a few roads. 

I can understand why businesses with the coin to do feasibility studies would be hesitant to come over at this time (although I want them to). Hopefully things change in the future, but maybe I'm just spoiled. 

 

Edited December 23, 2022 by JClark54

[004n063]

42 minutes ago, JClark54 said:

This must be a joke comment. 

Freight rail activity in the east end is not a minor inconvenience. I'm not a train hater, but I understand how it affects the area. 

Train blockages can profoundly impact traffic during peak periods or situations where numerous lines are blocked for hours at the same time.

The Galveston subdivision was blocked for 15 hours or greater three times in the last six months. The east belt was blocked for 23 hours by a single train this year. Prolonged blockages have been shown to keep kids from getting to school, and HFD wrote to the FRA that train blockages have caused emergency response times to jump from the stated goal of 10 minutes or less to 45 minutes or more 1,500 times this year -- through the third quarter 2022. The railroads claim first-responders get preferential treatment (if they call, the train will move or be broken, they say). If it takes first-responders 45 minutes, the above 10-minute claim is in no way grounded in reality. 

The latest TxDOT Houston region freight rail study found the uptick in stopped trains combined with consist length increases has resulted in a $800 million economic loss for east Houston businesses -- commercial and industrial. The study identified myriad roads that need separation to improve connectivity -- the same roads as all prior studies dating back to 2011 (Sampson/York/Hirsch/Waco, Lockwood, Commerce, new Navigation tunnel to replace the aging one) -- but there's a well-documented history of these projects stalling as a result of railroad protest over what they state will be negative impacts on daily operations during construction. 

East River is on a stretch of the bayou along a rail line between Towers 5 and 86, which is commonly blocked by stopped trains for hours at a time practically daily. If the Houston line is also blocked, the development is not completely isolated but reachable by only a few roads. 

I can understand why businesses with the coin to do feasibility studies would be hesitant to come over at this time (although I want them to). Hopefully things change in the future, but maybe I'm just spoiled. 

 

I think everything you wrote is totally fair, and the extended rail blockages are absolutely a problem that may significantly affect the success of East River.

But what Houston19514 said was that describing traveling 2-3 miles in 10 minutes (which is not at all unheard of around Downtown) as evidencr of "connectivity problems" is pretty wild, and I think that is absolutely fair. In downtown Boston or New York, 3 miles in 10 minutes would be just about a record pace.

Of course, 3 miles is a lot "further" in terms of destinations in those cities, and personally I would rather things be closer and traffic slower than the reverse.

[jmitch94]

Hit them with some multi million dollar fines and watch those stoppages magically disappear. 

[JClark54]

1 hour ago, jmitch94 said:

Hit them with some multi million dollar fines and watch those stoppages magically disappear. 

Catastrophic environmental incident aside, no such mechanism exists to do as you write. Congress has enacted legislation tying local entities' enforcement capabilities, placing the burden at the federal level. 

The FRA is allowed to levy a fine of $892 to $29,192 per violation of federal safety guidelines. Blockages in excess of 15 minutes classify as safety violations, but evidence of violations is minimal with miles of track and agencies that don't have the interest, time, or personnel to cover them. 

Residents and businesses often document these occurrences, but it appears from lack of enforcement the feds either aren't interested or must see an incident themselves. 

The December derailment on Clinton (ahem, East River) that took out the esplanade and closed myriad crossings for just shy of two days was a self-report and, at least as of this writing, a no-fine event. 

To show how little enforcement takes place, the FRA reported a record amount of fines for safety violations across all miles of track, number of railroads, and segments of the country in 2021. That total? $15 million. 

Utilizing city streets and county roads as de-facto sidings has become part of business operations. 

 

 

Edited December 23, 2022 by JClark54

[004n063]

32 minutes ago, JClark54 said:

Catastrophic environmental incident aside, no such mechanism exists to do as you write. Congress has enacted legislation tying local entities' enforcement capabilities, placing the burden at the federal level. 

The FRA is allowed to levy a fine of $892 to $29,192 per violation of federal safety guidelines. Blockages in excess of 15 minutes classify as safety violations, but evidence of violations is minimal with miles of track and agencies that don't have the interest, time, or personnel to cover them. 

Residents and businesses often document these occurrences, but it appears from lack of enforcement that the either the feds aren't interested or must see an incident themselves. 

The December derailment on Clinton (ahem, East River) that took out the esplanade and closed myriad crossings for just shy of two days was a self-report and, at least as of this writing, a no-fine event. 

To show how little enforcement takes place, the FRA reported a record amount of fines for safety violations across all miles of track, number of railroads, and segments of the country in 2021. That total? $15 million. 

Utilizing city streets and county roads as de-facto sidings has become part of business operations. 

 

 

Is it just me, or have trains also gotten longer in recent years?

[JClark54]

Trains utilizing the Houston complex have grown from approximate max lengths of 3,000 feet in the 1950s to approximate max lengths of 10,000 feet today. In filings with the Surface Transportation board, the major Class Is that own trackage here claim Canadian Pacific plans to run eight to 14 trains in excess of 12,000 feet long per day if its proposed merger with Kansas City Southern is approved.

Studies from myriad entities usually align in that the major driver of train blockages in the east end is yard size and train length. They were predominately built in and around 1900, when trains were shorter. Current lengths no longer fit in the yard. So they extend out when switching and must wait for those passing through to clear the main lines before entering. Thus, street parking. 

Englewood has enough space to build sidings sizable enough to support these longer trains running today. UP hasn't invested in them to the extent needed to take train parking off city streets, regulators claim.

Edited December 23, 2022 by JClark54