Highway 288

[IronTiger]

16 minutes ago, ADCS said:

 

I think many of them realize that cities develop around the infrastructure provided for them, and in ways influenced by that infrastructure. We put auto-centric infrastructure in (and always at a high capital investment), we will have an auto-centric city. Likewise, if there is a comprehensive rail system, development will take advantage of that system. The musculature builds around the bones.

For the most part, that's correct. Cities are built certain ways and infrastructure develops certain ways, and trying to patch in different transit systems isn't going to work. If you put in wide American-style highways into European cities, it won't magically resemble the urban/suburban divide like it does in the United States, nor will trains result in denser, anti-suburb development that fundamentally changes how we live and get around. In the early 1970s, Paris built the Boulevard Périphérique, which is a loop highway not too dissimilar from U.S. highways...but due to the way Paris is built, trains still rule.

Edited October 13, 2016 by IronTiger

[DNAguy]

My thoughts FWIW:

 

To my knowledge, this is a design-build project much like the southern section of SH130 south of Austin.... at least to the Brazoria county line. After that, its all on the Brazoria equivalent of HCTRA.

 

Therefore, no concessions were made to allow for HOV's to use the toll lanes. This is a large mistake and is worth derision.

 

However, I do feel as if this is a good deal for TxDOT and tax payers as they don't have to pay for the upgrade ... the engineering company has exclusive toll rights for like 60 years.

In addition, they throw in upgrades to the 610 and Beltway 8 interchanges. That's a pretty nice bonus. I say its probably the best use of this agreement because there is still a "free" option to drive on that not frontage roads and is actually grade separated highway.  The toll company can't "force" you to use the toll lanes as they could if a new highway was being put in. That reduces the likelihood of huge price increases on tolls and adds a downward pressure on pricing.

 

Full disclosure: I like trains. I like commuter trains and hope Houston eventually gets them. I like how when I go to Europe, DC, NY, etc that I don't need a car and train + uber seems to work well.

 

However, trains in the middle of freeways (and this one especially) don't work all the at well. Where would the stops be? How would people get to them?

 

Right now commuter trains don't make sense for Brazoria county. However, we need to preserve / start movement on the existing tracks along FM 521 and Mykawa Rd / Tx35. Maybe one day, those alignments can be used for commuter rail into the city with spurs to Hobby airport (for Mykawa) or the Medical Center (FM 521).

 

To be honest, TxDOT, METRO, Harris County, and Houston + surrounding municipalities should be incentivizing train companies to build newer train tracks in areas outside of the suburbs and city if / when possible. If that were the case, then older lines / ROW within the city could be used for commuter service.

 

 

[JLWM8609]

31 minutes ago, DNAguy said:

 

However, trains in the middle of freeways (and this one especially) don't work all the at well. Where would the stops be? How would people get to them?

 

 

 

 

On the Dan Ryan in Chicago, stops are at overpasses with major streets. People get there by walking or via bus stops at the train stop.

[cspwal]

1 hour ago, JLWM8609 said:

 

On the Dan Ryan in Chicago, stops are at overpasses with major streets. People get there by walking or via bus stops at the train stop.

 

I was actually thinking of that while reading his comment, as we had just made a trip to Chicago and went to a White Sox game.  The stop for the stadium is in the middle of the highway, and while walking to it wasn't too bad (traffic cops were at the intersections that are the highway on and off ramps), the wait for the train was one of the worst noise wise.  You don't realize how loud a highway with cars going "60" mph is until you're seated on a bench 12 feet away from it, separated only by low concrete walls.  Obviously, this could be solved easily (windows, trees) but I agree that while train stops can work in the middle of a highway, they are no where ideal.

[mollusk]

Wild eyed idealist?  Classist?  Nuh uh.

 

The Daily Driver is a testament to my love of Our Blessed Lady of Acceleration (I am neither young nor compensating.  It's just fun, and nobody looks at the DD and thinks anything other but "geez that's small and not sleek").  Still, when living in The Streetcar Suburb it's aggravating that I could WALK the three mile drive to work more quickly than taking the bus (unless the timing is just perfect); even worse, getting on the train from home takes longer 'cause of the bike ride.  So, a bunch of horsepower gets driven just barely long enough to get half warm five days a week.  But, if there's an errand to be run from the downtown office to anywhere along the tracks, you bet your sweet bippy that the phone's getting whipped out and the Q-Ticketing app is getting stabbed.  

 

Sure, rail infrastructure takes time to build.  So do freeways.  While this isn't a zero sum game, one of them carries a ****ton more people, more efficiently, than the other... so perhaps that might be a place to put the investment.  

[august948]

1 hour ago, mollusk said:

Wild eyed idealist?  Classist?  Nuh uh.

 

The Daily Driver is a testament to my love of Our Blessed Lady of Acceleration (I am neither young nor compensating.  It's just fun, and nobody looks at the DD and thinks anything other but "geez that's small and not sleek").  Still, when living in The Streetcar Suburb it's aggravating that I could WALK the three mile drive to work more quickly than taking the bus (unless the timing is just perfect); even worse, getting on the train from home takes longer 'cause of the bike ride.  So, a bunch of horsepower gets driven just barely long enough to get half warm five days a week.  But, if there's an errand to be run from the downtown office to anywhere along the tracks, you bet your sweet bippy that the phone's getting whipped out and the Q-Ticketing app is getting stabbed.  

 

Sure, rail infrastructure takes time to build.  So do freeways.  While this isn't a zero sum game, one of them carries a ****ton more people, more efficiently, than the other... so perhaps that might be a place to put the investment.  

 

Ahh... Our Blessed Lady of Acceleration, how I adore thee!

 

And lo, the Lord hath putteth His Cross upon us and it is Good.

 

And, as He hath giveth His sign to the Brethren of the Loop, also hath he spread His Arms to the Unwashed heathens.

And yea even unto those of the Land of Pears He hath spread His arms far and wide and it is Good.  And yea though the Unwashed undertaketh a lengthy diurnal Pilgrimage unto the Corazon to pay homage in the Towers of the Brethren, yet the Brethren looketh upon the Masses with scorn becauseth the Unwashed embraceth the Arms instead of the Cross. 

 

And lo the Brethren said unto the Unwashed, Ye shall hold the Cross before the Arms and casteth aside the Arms as you shall also casteth aside thy Home and liveth in Cells built for thee in the Towers of the Brethren.

 

But it came to pass that the Unwashed knew the Brethren for a small group and themselves for a large group and so cast aside the aspersions of the Brethren and said unto them that Unwashed and Brethren shall live as each likes, some with the Cross and some with the Arms and yet all as brothers.

 

[samagon]

 

On 10/13/2016 at 10:49 AM, IronTiger said:

 

Sounds like you're implying veiled racism to me, but then following that same logic, are you seriously arguing that "If you don't like trains, you must be racist"? While I'm glad for you that you don't have any questions about who you're voting for, falling back on an argument like that just proves August's point...managed lanes are better and more efficient for transportation and transit.

 

Not racism, it's something just as bad: Classism.

 

A perfect example is that fight going on in uptown, somebody wants to build some housing units that include low income housing. People who live there are fighting it tooth and nail. Stating that the schools in the area are overcrowded and gosh, we can't possibly fit more kids into the area schools! Which is a valid argument until you consider how many other apartments are being built in the area simultaneously that no one is trying to stop. The only difference is that this series of units contain low income housing.

 

It's not race based at all, the rich white people in uptown (I prefer calling it upitytown btw) don't want any poor white people living there as bad as rich black people who live there don't want poor black people living there.

[SkylineView]

Regarding 288, I can't wait for this thing to be up and running, though the tie-in with 59/45 frightens me greatly.

 

My opinion on Briargrove:  

1. It's not exactly on the River Oaks promenade... it's on Fountain View... and would replace a so-so office building... and is next to an [entirely] abandoned supermarket... and is about 800 feet from Smoke Alley (had to link this b/c it's so awesome).

2.  The real issue of this project was NOT community vitriol (though the community wishes they had that kind of pull), it was that the average unit cost was going to be $240,000 (link).  Stating it a different way... it wasn't cancelled b/c the city bowed to the community (though I think I read HUD is looking into that), it died because it was too expensive on a per-unit basis.  The guy in charge of the Houston Housing Authority resigned over the whole thing (link), and was shown to be ineffective at moving projects forward.

[mkultra25]

28 minutes ago, SkylineView said:

and is about 800 feet from Smoke Alley (had to link this b/c it's so awesome).

 

Tobacco? Check. 

 

Firearms? Check. 

 

The only way that could've been any better would've been if alcohol had somehow been involved to complete the trifecta, and the clerk had been wearing a t-shirt emblazoned with "ATF - Keepin' It Real".

[JLWM8609]

3 hours ago, SkylineView said:

Regarding 288, I can't wait for this thing to be up and running, though the tie-in with 59/45 frightens me greatly.

 

 

The North Houston Highway Improvement Project will rebuild that interchange and have the managed lanes terminate via ramps to Chenevert. That's still a good 10-15 years down the line though.

[LTAWACS]

How can we stop this addition of toll lanes???? WE DONT WANT ANY MORE TOLL EFFIN ROADS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Ross]

33 minutes ago, LTAWACS said:

How can we stop this addition of toll lanes???? WE DONT WANT ANY MORE TOLL EFFIN ROADS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Convince the Legislature to raise taxes so there's non toll sources to pay the construction costs.

[cspwal]

16 hours ago, Ross said:

Convince the Legislature to raise taxes so there's non toll sources to pay the construction costs.

Don't forget the extra taxes for maintenance of the highway

 

Are these going to be HOT/HOV lanes? Or just tolls?

[JLWM8609]

On 10/19/2016 at 4:55 PM, Ross said:

Convince the Legislature to raise taxes so there's non toll sources to pay the construction costs.

You've got a better chance of rolling a snowball up hippie hill in July than that happening.

[Hastings]

Wouldn't that depend on the amount of the toll Tory? It would also depend on the cost of totally re-building something, like a major interchange. That doesn't come cheap.

[cspwal]

So far no real activity that I've noticed on 288 :/

[JLWM8609]

On 10/24/2016 at 8:47 AM, cspwal said:

So far no real activity that I've noticed on 288 :/

 

Last night, I noticed some orange barrels have been placed on the left shoulder of the 610 EB to 288 NB ramp in order to close the shoulder.

[LTAWACS]

On 10/19/2016 at 4:55 PM, Ross said:

Convince the Legislature to raise taxes so there's non toll sources to pay the construction costs.

 

Why not just have the county (or whoever is responsible for roads) to balance their books and plan and budget for them????? 

 

 

Isnt THAT a novel idea....

[Ross]

54 minutes ago, LTAWACS said:

 

Why not just have the county (or whoever is responsible for roads) to balance their books and plan and budget for them????? 

 

 

Isnt THAT a novel idea....

The County isn't responsible for roads like 288. That's a state road. Same thing with FM roads.

[DNAguy]

On October 24, 2016 at 8:47 AM, cspwal said:

So far no real activity that I've noticed on 288 :/

 

Looks like they're removing trees / vegitation at the 288-610 interchange as of yesterday.

 

Sorry no pics. Traffic was actually moving well heading west yesterday at rush hour.

 

Sidenote: Is there a more mind-boggling bad stretch of freeway in Houston as 610 between 288 and 45/225?

 

I'm not talking about traffic (but it sure does get bad.... Just not as bad as other stretches) per se, but the design. You can really tell that it was built to older and lower standards of freeway design. The short on ramps and off ramps, the discountinuous frontage roads, the relatively sharp curves / obstructed sight lines, and the terrible 45 interchange all create massive backups everyday that just wouldn't be there with a properly designed highway.

 

Outside of the 45 interchange, there is some real low hanging TxDOT fruit when it comes to reducing congestion. Maybe the traffic count and the demographics of the area just don't support it. 

[werdserf 99]

22 hours ago, Ross said:

The County isn't responsible for roads like 288. That's a state road. Same thing with FM roads.

 

I think you understand his point though, Ross. It's stupid that they have to implement tolls when the people in charge of dispersing funds for projects don't know how to do math.

[Ross]

5 hours ago, werdserf 99 said:

 

I think you understand his point though, Ross. It's stupid that they have to implement tolls when the people in charge of dispersing funds for projects don't know how to do math.

They know how to do the math. The Legislature refuses to fund roads to the extent required to keep up with growth.

[werdserf 99]

Then they're idiots in that regard. I guess they have more pressing issues than this,a peripheral need that stems from the growth they want.

 

No foresight at all.

 

 

[Ross]

15 hours ago, werdserf 99 said:

Then they're idiots in that regard. I guess they have more pressing issues than this,a peripheral need that stems from the growth they want.

 

No foresight at all.

 

 

The lege is full of idiots who do not understand the role of government. All they understand is that their rich donors do not want to pay any taxes, and the non-rich think roads appear magically, without any money changing hands.

[VinnyVincent]

On 11/11/2016 at 6:24 AM, DNAguy said:

 

 

Sidenote: Is there a more mind-boggling bad stretch of freeway in Houston as 610 between 288 and 45/225?

Yes. The entire stretch of hwy 290 between BW8 and 610.

I drive both 288 and 290 Daily and 290 is far worse. No comparison.

[VinnyVincent]

On 11/12/2016 at 6:05 PM, Ross said:

The lege is full of idiots who do not understand the role of government. All they understand is that their rich donors do not want to pay any taxes, and the non-rich think roads appear magically, without any money changing hands.

Well money does change hands seeing how we've paid for BW8 more than seven times over, but the only new roads appearing are somehow more toll roads.

So if we pay tolls on a road that been paid for, in order to have money to build new roads, why are all new roads tolled?

[VinnyVincent]

On 11/12/2016 at 2:48 AM, werdserf 99 said:

Then they're idiots in that regard. I guess they have more pressing issues than this,a peripheral need that stems from the growth they want.

 

No foresight at all.

 

 

No they're not idiots, we are for continuing to elect them. Instead of figuring things out the easy thing to do is just keep building toll roads since people like you and me are stupid enough to believe their story about how there's no other way to fund the road.

[JLWM8609]

Activity has ramped up on this project. Segments 1 and 4 seem to be where they've started off (BW and 610 respectively). They're already in the process of widening the 288 overpasses at the Beltway, and the Beltway mainlanes are being widened too, though I believe that was part of a separate project that started before the 288 project. They're removing paint from the direct connector ramps at 610 and have put down asphalt for a temporary ramp from 610 W to 288 N.

[VinnyVincent]

I just read some info that would suggest that our elected officials have pushed for existing roads to be converted into access roads for the toll lanes that have been added.

I understand this would be way off in the future for 288, but to me seems like that would be their eventual goal.

 

Quote

http://www.dallasnews.com/news/transportation/2009/03/27/terri-hall-and-the-anti-toll

 

[IronTiger]

On 1/13/2017 at 0:35 PM, VinnyVincent said:

I just read some info that would suggest that our elected officials have pushed for existing roads to be converted into access roads for the toll lanes that have been added.

I understand this would be way off in the future for 288, but to me seems like that would be their eventual goal.

 

 

Before you start to drag this topic away, that's not "way off in the future" or "their eventual goal". They're not talking about taking existing freeways and adding arbitrary stoplights to make them toll roads, they take existing non-controlled access highways, which often have driveways, small roads, and (sometimes) stoplights on them already, and then converting them to freeways, but the freeway part is toll, and the stoplights aren't added until they need to be. There's no stoplights at say, Antioch Drive and Beltway 8 because that's a tiny stub road because it only provides access to a recycling center and the back entrance to a subdivision. (Stoplights cost money)

 

As it turns out, there are few highways like that outside of Harris County, because everything is already a freeway, except 288 south of Manvel, 90 east of Crosby, 290 west of Hempstead, and 249 north of Tomball, all of which (except for maybe Tomball) are safely outside of the core Houston commuter patterns.