Highway 288

[IronTiger]

What's ridiculous is living in denial.

Educate yourself

http://usa.streetsblog.org/2011/11/02/texas-sprawl-builders-funneled-taxpayer-to-highway-that-enriched-them/

Uh, no. I have to laugh at your assertions about feeder roads and highways, since apparently all the studied experience you have with freeways is anti-freeway/pro-rail literature.

The defense rests, Your Honor.

But seriously, the fact that Lanier did profit from highway construction and other projects is true. And if you read my last post, which you apparently didn't, does state that. However, Lanier left the highway related offices by the late 1980s and the Grand Parkway we have now involve years past that date. Lanier has no more influence on it than any powerful rich businessman does, which is of course what many have done, and frankly, the fact that this "developer interests" idea was openly transparent in the mid-1980s (read: not a conspiracy) and the idea still carrying (including voters' interests, as a 2001 Fort Bend County election did) meant that the Grand Parkway still has worth after all.

[Slick Vik]

The defense rests, Your Honor.

But seriously, the fact that Lanier did profit from highway construction and other projects is true. And if you read my last post, which you apparently didn't, does state that. However, Lanier left the highway related offices by the late 1980s and the Grand Parkway we have now involve years past that date. Lanier has no more influence on it than any powerful rich businessman does, which is of course what many have done, and frankly, the fact that this "developer interests" idea was openly transparent in the mid-1980s (read: not a conspiracy) and the idea still carrying (including voters' interests, as a 2001 Fort Bend County election did) meant that the Grand Parkway still has worth after all.

So using political power to create the mechanisms to building a highway that wasn't necessary to profit a small group of people is okay to you? That is corruption.

[IronTiger]

So using political power to create the mechanisms to building a highway that wasn't necessary to profit a small group of people is okay to you? That is corruption.

It's not corruption. Corruption as defined by dictionaries is "dishonest or fraudulent conduct by those in power, typically involving bribery". There was nothing fraudulent or dishonest about the Grand Parkway project. In fact, there are very few traffic/transit related projects, if any, that are truly altruistic. To note:

- The monorail plan (which you seem to support) was derived from Whitmire's METRO board (the actual monorail plan nor its route were ever approved by voters), and Whitmire had connections with monorail contractors.

- The Big Dig project was mired in corruption with certain contractors being awarded the contract and powerful politicians funneling federal money into the project.

- The Charlotte light rail plan involved the mayor taking kickbacks in building and funding the light rail.

Had Lanier and his pals taken illegal kickbacks unbeknownst to the public, then yes, it would be corruption. But it wasn't. Somebody always always profits off of any project, and Lanier was one of the people that did.

[Slick Vik]

Denying reality again. Making profits off a project only they could create is essentially giving yourself a kickback.

[IronTiger]

Denying reality again. Making profits off a project only they could create is essentially giving yourself a kickback.

Exactly what "reality" am I denying again? Yours? I know that Lanier and others made a lot of money off of the Grand Parkway, but it was rather open (everyone knew about it) but you and I know that isn't unique, not unless you wanted to accuse other projects of being "corrupt" and where others (would) make money, except under the table and not be exposed until months later after the deed was done. You've chosen to single out the Grand Parkway because it goes directly against your anti-freeway, anti-suburban philosophies. If the Grand Parkway was instead a rail-based mass transit system loop but still backed by developers who would profit off of such a thing, you wouldn't have say a word.

Edited August 19, 2014 by IronTiger

[Slick Vik]

Exactly what "reality" am I denying again? Yours? I know that Lanier and others made a lot of money off of the Grand Parkway, but it was rather open (everyone knew about it) but you and I know that isn't unique, not unless you wanted to accuse other projects of being "corrupt" and where others (would) make money, except under the table and not be exposed until months later after the deed was done. You've chosen to single out the Grand Parkway because it goes directly against your anti-freeway, anti-suburban philosophies. If the Grand Parkway was instead a rail-based mass transit system loop but still backed by developers who would profit off of such a thing, you wouldn't have say a word.

It is corruption and I'm against it in all forms. It's no different than the Sicilian mafia using influence to have unnecessary projects built.

[IronTiger]

It is corruption and I'm against it in all forms. It's no different than the Sicilian mafia using influence to have unnecessary projects built.

By that definition, you'd be against the monorail project, the Charlotte light rail, and the Big Dig project, since those involved "corruption" in some way or another, as well as many other transit projects that may have benefitted developers or anybody else in some way or another, which would include the Red Line as well, since that benefitted developers along the line. Better scratch off that one, too.

EDIT: Why am I arguing with you again? It's clear that any time I counter with facts, you just claim I'm "denying reality" or switching to insult mode, any uncomfortable questions like "If the Grand Parkway was instead a rail-based mass transit system loop but still backed by developers who would profit off of such a thing, you wouldn't have [said] a word," or "apparently all the studied experience you have with freeways is anti-freeway/pro-rail literature", or even exactly what I'm saying wrong are ignored.

You attack actual research I do on subjects (like when I derive stuff from the Chron) while trotting out obviously biased articles that conveniently support your views, and lastly, it should be noted that before you counter with my "anti-freeway" accusation and call me "anti-rail", I would like to point out that I have never actually bashed rail in any way, not like you do freeways. I've questioned the effectiveness of rail in certain areas and have spoken out against rail in certain corridors, but I haven't actually bashed rail in any ways.

Thanks

IT

Edited August 19, 2014 by IronTiger

[Slick Vik]

By that definition, you'd be against the monorail project, the Charlotte light rail, and the Big Dig project, since those involved "corruption" in some way or another, as well as many other transit projects that may have benefitted developers or anybody else in some way or another, which would include the Red Line as well, since that benefitted developers along the line. Better scratch off that one, too.

EDIT: Why am I arguing with you again? It's clear that any time I counter with facts, you just claim I'm "denying reality" or switching to insult mode, any uncomfortable questions like "If the Grand Parkway was instead a rail-based mass transit system loop but still backed by developers who would profit off of such a thing, you wouldn't have [said] a word," or "apparently all the studied experience you have with freeways is anti-freeway/pro-rail literature", or even exactly what I'm saying wrong are ignored.

You attack actual research I do on subjects (like when I derive stuff from the Chron) while trotting out obviously biased articles that conveniently support your views, and lastly, it should be noted that before you counter with my "anti-freeway" accusation and call me "anti-rail", I would like to point out that I have never actually bashed rail in any way, not like you do freeways. I've questioned the effectiveness of rail in certain areas and have spoken out against rail in certain corridors, but I haven't actually bashed rail in any ways.

Thanks

IT

It depends what the sole purpose of the project. In this situation even the founder said he had no interest in traffic issues, only development which would enrich him and his cronies. If it's a 100% handoff like this, I'm against it.

Not sure what was biased about the article I posted. It gave a history of how absurd the grand parkway project was.

Edited August 19, 2014 by Slick Vik

[BigFootsSocks]

So using political power to create the mechanisms to building a highway that wasn't necessary to profit a small group of people is okay to you? That is corruption.

It may not be necessary at the time but you could make a strong argument that it is now though. The GP was always going to come. Houston sprawls, we don't build up. It was always inevitable. However, the means by which this land transaction occurred are questionable. Lanier didn't make money off the land he donated for the GP. He made money off the land around it that he sold to developers.

[Slick Vik]

It may not be necessary at the time but you could make a strong argument that it is now though. The GP was always going to come. Houston sprawls, we don't build up. It was always inevitable. However, the means by which this land transaction occurred are questionable. Lanier didn't make money off the land he donated for the GP. He made money off the land around it that he sold to developers.

And made a lot of money for his friends also.

I'm not sure it's even necessary right now. And if you compare it against other projects I don't think it would've been at the front of the line. The only saving grace is that it's a toll road so people will talk with pocketbooks.

[BigFootsSocks]

It's necessary to connect two strong and exploding populations (Katy and The Woodlands) together and the sprawling development that is at the edge if not past the boundaries of the GP. The development in these areas is going to happen whether or not the toll road was going to built. There's no denying that. With the Energy Corridor building out at exponitally and a booming Woodlands population this is a necessary traffic congestion reliever. That's just reality.

[Slick Vik]

It's necessary to connect two strong and exploding populations (Katy and The Woodlands) together and the sprawling development that is at the edge if not past the boundaries of the GP. The development in these areas is going to happen whether or not the toll road was going to built. There's no denying that. With the Energy Corridor building out at exponitally and a booming Woodlands population this is a necessary traffic congestion reliever. That's just reality.

You think the undeveloped Katy prarie would've developed without the grand parkway?

[BigFootsSocks]

Most definitely. And it's not so undeveloped anymore. Bridgelabds is biting a huge chunk out of it in the coming years which according to plans will be split in half by the GP. Just look at Houston in Google Earth with the "Time Change" setting, specifically the areas around the north portion of the Beltway before it was built. There was already lots of activity going on in these suburbs before the Beltway was built and spurned more growth. There's already development pushing the boundaries of Segment E, and the other segments being built are, for the most part, cutting through already developed land.

So to answer your question, yes. Houston is defined by sprawling, vast amounts of suburbia. As we see a changing trend of redeveloping and building up, that's focused mainly in the inner core. The outskirts will continue to build out.

[JLWM8609]

This thread left 288's median and is on I-10 halfway to El Paso.

[BigFootsSocks]

This thread left 288's median and is on I-10 halfway to El Paso.

Might as well be closer to Phoenix now

[mollusk]

To get back to funding roads, by tolls or otherwise...

 

Once upon a time, most of our highways were built either out of cash flow or with bonds, either way backed by tax revenues, largely from fuel taxes.

 

Although cars do now get better mileage than they used to, we also have more of them.  Be that as it may, the gasoline tax hasn't budged in more than twenty years on either the Federal or State of Texas levels.  So, let's do us some calculatin'...

 

1993 - Average US miles driven:  8800.  Best selling truck:  F150, 18 hwy mpg.  Best selling car:  Taurus, 30 hwy mpg.  $187.73 in fuel tax for the F150, $112.64 for the Taurus, in 1993 dollars.  Accounting for inflation, that's $309.53 for the F150 and $185.72 for the Taurus.

 

2013 - Average US miles driven:  9400.  Best selling truck:  F150, 23 hwy mpg.  Best selling car:  Camry, 35 hwy mpg.  $156.94 in fuel tax for the F150, $103.13 for the Camry.

 

Texas population in 1993, 18 million.  2013, 26.7 million.

 

Oh, and on top of the loss of real spending power, let's not forget that The Merry Little Band in Austin and their brethern and sistern in DC have also been raiding the fuel tax revenues for other spending.

 

If fuel taxes were indexed to inflation and actually spent as the dedicated fund that the Texas Constitution says they are, I humbly submit that our need for toll roads would be markedly reduced, and our highway maintenance standards could return to what I remember them being.

[cspwal]

I'm not sure if there's a current thread on this or not, but it looks like they are moving forward with toll lanes on 288.  I hadn't heard about this - much less hearing it was delayed.  Anyone have any idea what the design is going to look like, particularly coming into downtown & the med center?

 

 

 

Construction of new toll lanes in the median of Texas 288 will start a few months later than initially planned, 

On that timeline, the 10.3-mile tollway from U.S. 59 to Brazoria County would be completed in 2018, Lewis said.

 

http://blog.chron.com/thehighwayman/2015/10/texas-288-toll-lane-work-expected-mid-2016/

[BeerNut]

Bah perfect place for commuter rail.

[IronTiger]

Bah perfect place for commuter rail.

Optimistically, if the median was fully used, there should be lanes for roads and rail. Putting the rail on columns not unlike Inner Loop Houston's elevated HOV lane will work too.

[cspwal]

Another advantage of the rails being on columns is if 288 floods, the train would still run, with really eerie views

[JLWM8609]

Bah perfect place for commuter rail.

 

I think the Columbia Tap Rails to Trails ROW could revert back to rail one day for that reason.

[IronTiger]

So will the 610 and 288 interchange be rebuilt then to accommodate the new lanes?

[CoolBuddy06]

So will the 610 and 288 interchange be rebuilt then to accommodate the new lanes?

 

Absolutely. It's in the plan.

[JLWM8609]

So will the 610 and 288 interchange be rebuilt then to accommodate the new lanes?

 

Not for the initial phase, which is what we'll see built soon. The reversible toll lane will snake through the current interchange as you can see in this exhibit:

http://ftp.dot.state.tx.us/pub/txdot-info/hou/sh288_us59/harris_county_clear_creek.pdf

 

Ultimate plans do call for the interchange to be rebuilt when the reversible toll lane is expanded and rebuilt into a 4 lane tollroad. When that happens, the toll lanes will run through the interchange where the current 288 mainlanes are, and the 288 mainlanes will be relocated to run through the edges of the interchange.

http://ftp.dot.state.tx.us/pub/txdot-info/hou/sh288_us59/bw8_ih610.pdf

Edited October 29, 2015 by JLWM8609

[ToryGattis]

Bah perfect place for commuter rail.

 

Rail?! Rail in general tends to be a bad cost-benefit proposition, but why would you ever consider building one when one *already exists* a mile to the west perfectly connecting the Med Center and Downtown?  There *might* be a good argument for extending the existing line south (although I doubt it), but there's no universe where it makes sense to build a parallel line!

[ADCS]

Rail?! Rail in general tends to be a bad cost-benefit proposition, but why would you ever consider building one when one *already exists* a mile to the west perfectly connecting the Med Center and Downtown?  There *might* be a good argument for extending the existing line south (although I doubt it), but there's no universe where it makes sense to build a parallel line!

 

While I tend to disagree with Mr. Gattis over the desirability of rail in general, I've got to agree here. The only thing advantageous about this corridor as far as rail goes is the relative ease of construction. The location poses significant barriers to pedestrian traffic, and exists on the periphery of Pearland's development, limiting its usefulness as a commuter route. After all, if you're already driving to 288 to get on the train, and the express lanes are a similar price, why wouldn't you do the familiar thing and just take the express lanes?

 

Any sort of heavy rail in Houston would do best by serving dense, central corridors that are already relatively underserved by the freeway system.

[IronTiger]

One of my transit fantasies (although more grounded in reality and more highway-friendly than my HAIF peers) is to extend the Red Line down to 288 as sort of a hybrid commuter line. The biggest problem with this is Pearland falls outside of METRO's jurisdiction, and it's difficult by vote/impossible by law to add the METRO tax in Pearland, so you'll end up with free riders or a complicated multi-agency system.

Edited October 29, 2015 by IronTiger

[Slick Vik]

One of my transit fantasies (although more grounded in reality and more highway-friendly than my HAIF peers) is to extend the Red Line down to 288 as sort of a hybrid commuter line. The biggest problem with this is Pearland falls outside of METRO's jurisdiction, and it's difficult by vote/impossible by law to add the METRO tax in Pearland, so you'll end up with free riders or a complicated multi-agency system.

Realistically from fannin south the commuter line down 90 will start. And any light rail would probably go to hobby airport.

Rail?! Rail in general tends to be a bad cost-benefit proposition, but why would you ever consider building one when one *already exists* a mile to the west perfectly connecting the Med Center and Downtown? There *might* be a good argument for extending the existing line south (although I doubt it), but there's no universe where it makes sense to build a parallel line!

Highways tend to be a bad cost benefit proposition but you advocate for those. You're ideologically against rail we get it.

[BigFootsSocks]

Rail?! Rail in general tends to be a bad cost-benefit proposition, but why would you ever consider building one when one *already exists* a mile to the west perfectly connecting the Med Center and Downtown? There *might* be a good argument for extending the existing line south (although I doubt it), but there's no universe where it makes sense to build a parallel line!

More highways amirite?

[IronTiger]

More highways amirite?

Highways are not going to be the answer in all cases (especially long term), but I'm getting really sick of this dogmatic "we must build rail like East Coast cities or we are failures" mentality. There was a recent article in the Houston Chronicle ("Kotkin, Cox: Light rail in the Sun Belt is a poor fit") that just seemed to prove an ugly fact--unless you're a Eastern seaboard, old-line "legacy" city, rail doesn't seem to work. Even Portland, San Diego, and L.A. have actually seen transit numbers decrease since rail was implemented.

Just because Gattis doesn't subscribe the popular urban theories du jour (like New Urbanism) doesn't mean he doesn't try to think of innovative solutions or that he's wrong.