I-45 Rebuild (North Houston Highway Improvement Project)

[Amlaham]

51 minutes ago, Luminare said:

While the replies might seem disingenuous since they don't really hit your exact point, I would listen to those responses because they highlight the tradeoffs for speed, and max efficiency. The main tradeoff is if you want that kind of speed and max efficiency (at least on the exterior, or aesthetically) then unfortunately you will need massive expansion in centralization of resources, with the tyranny and totalitarianism that goes with that. When you have total control and only one person making a decision then yes you can move quickly and build entire cities in a decade, but it comes a great costs in the medium to long term that aren't immediately apparent. I say this as someone who wants the ability to have total design control, but with the understanding of what those trade offs are and what I will need to balance that speed in design with help to mitigate tradeoffs. The question we have to always ask ourselves is do we want a society of max efficiency or max autonomy. We are kinda having that discussion right now, but it does come with trade offs, sometimes ones that aren't immediately obvious. If we want to remain a republic with democratically elected representatives then we will have one of the slowest forms of governments who will in turn also make decisions very slowly because they have to reach a consensus before making a decision which takes time....and that is by design.

**EDIT**
I should add that while my point above stands I do understand any and all frustration with the speed at which things can take on projects, and there are plenty of ways to fix this issue without sacrificing the mechanisms which make those decisions. There does need to be significant reform to how we bid public projects, to financing these projects, to eliminating conflict of interests, to addressing public concern while at the same time not letting that process drag, totally reform or dispense with environmental impact studies (useless), getting rid of useless "stakeholders" and making sure projects are beholden to the elected representatives, etc... etc...

I really appreciate your respectful response. Your points make a lot of sense and made it easier for me to understand. Just frustrated with how long this project is taking. It makes me sad that some people might not get to experience this project once complete because of how long it took. 

[Luminare]

4 minutes ago, Amlaham said:

I really appreciate your respectful response. Your points make a lot of sense and made it easier for me to understand. Just frustrated with how long this project is taking. It makes me sad that some people might not get to experience this project once complete because of how long it took. 

Its okay to be frustrated. In fact the only way things change in the future is the frustration one has today. After that though you really only have three choices to make (of which I'll leave that to you) 1) you take that frustration and learn about the process and figure out how you make effective change yourself 2) understand you can't make any changes, keep learning as you go with the understanding that you just have to wait and see or (the fun internet choice) 3) have fun expressing that frustration and complaining because we all like to b i t c h on the internet (Including yours truly haha). But serious you only have the first two. I'm glad you are getting a better understanding of the process. Believe me I live it everyday and sometimes I'm glad its super slow and other times I wish I had a bonfire to light a fire under some butts to get them moving. Its all about process. In this industry, process is king.

[samagon]

16 hours ago, Amlaham said:

I really appreciate your respectful response. Your points make a lot of sense and made it easier for me to understand. Just frustrated with how long this project is taking. It makes me sad that some people might not get to experience this project once complete because of how long it took. 

I'm sad too, not for the people who won't see it completed, there's the people who will be forcibly moved from where they've chosen to live their lives, or those who get to stay put, but have to deal with a huge construction project that lasts 15% of their lives that happens in their backyard.

imagine those people who are displaced, or have to live around this project in their backyard not getting to see the completed version of what impacted their lives so because of how long it took. 

I mean, let's not dramatize some dying futurists dreams to see i45 relocated from the west side of town to the east being some impactful reason that this project should move forward with alacrity. if it takes 60 more years for this to complete in a manner that has less impact on the lives of those living near it, and none of us get to see it completed, I'll have it in my will that someone locate and play the worlds smallest violin in the honor of all of us that never got to see this 'dream' come to life.

sorry for not feeling sorry for that person.

[Houston19514]

23 hours ago, Amlaham said:

💀 I didn't saying anything that insinuates enslaving workers, poop trucks, or building more/fast skyscrapers. Not every statement/ post is surface level. The point of my argument, which I thought was clear, is that it shouldn't take 30 years to plan/ reconstruct a highway. No workers have been enslaved in the last 20 years of planning this project. This isn't about workers, there are projects that get planned/built in a way quicker timeframe than this project.

• Dallas' Klyde cap park was planned in 2004, constructed from 2009-2012
• Florida's I-4 project was planned in 2008, constructed in 2015-2022 (one of the busiest highways :))
• California's I-405 project was planned 2014, constructed in 2018-2023 (the most congested highway in the LA area)

I can list numerous other US projects but someone will eventually find another excuse. I also made sure to only include American projects since some people get offended by UAE and China. 

The comparison to the relatively tiny Klyde Warren Park is just silly (and FWIW, they actually started planning that long before 2004).

Planning for expansion of Florida's I-4 also started long before 2008.

Likewise, planning for the expansion of California's I-405 started long before 2014.

[mattyt36]

2 hours ago, Houston19514 said:

The comparison to the relatively tiny Klyde Warren Park is just silly (and FWIW, they actually started planning that long before 2004).

Planning for expansion of Florida's I-4 also started long before 2008.

Likewise, planning for the expansion of California's I-405 started long before 2014.

And planning for the Grand Parkway started in the 1960s!  🤣

[editor]

On 5/10/2022 at 12:49 PM, H-Town Man said:

Starts off pretty well but I can't believe they really want to keep the Pierce Elevated structure

I think it's just that elevated parks are trendy to do so now. 

I don't know where it started, but New York was the big start of it in the U.S. with the High Line.  Chicago did The 606, and is doing two more. 

I'm not against elevated parks, but the elevated nature of the Pierce Elevated is what made it a neighborhood-killer.  Why keep its worst attribute?  Make it a ground-level park.  Much easier to access and maintain.

[Big E]

On 5/11/2022 at 8:00 AM, samagon said:

there's the people who will be forcibly moved from where they've chosen to live their lives, or those who get to stay put, but have to deal with a huge construction project that lasts 15% of their lives that happens in their backyard.

The people who are being "displaced" are being paid for their property and being given assistance to move, so they don't need your pity. And the people living next to this project are already living next to a freeway, so this probably won't disturb them as much as you think it does. You can drop your feigned interest in these people you don't even know. Its not impressing anyone here.

Edited May 14, 2022 by Big E

[Texasota]

Stop trying to accuse people of feigning sympathy or pretending to care about others just to hide whatever you think their real motivations are. Just stop it. You can disagree with them. You can think they are misguided or wrong. That's all fine. 

But let's not call each other liars. 

[ADCS]

2 hours ago, Texasota said:

Stop trying to accuse people of feigning sympathy or pretending to care about others just to hide whatever you think their real motivations are. Just stop it. You can disagree with them. You can think they are misguided or wrong. That's all fine. 

But let's not call each other liars. 

There's a difference between calling someone an outright liar, and saying that their argument is disingenuous.

[Texasota]

Just because you disagree with someone doesnt mean theyre being disingenuous. Ad that's, at most, a difference of degree not kind.

[Big E]

10 hours ago, Texasota said:

Just because you disagree with someone doesnt mean theyre being disingenuous. Ad that's, at most, a difference of degree not kind.

If you don't think he's being disingenuous, that's your belief, and you're free to believe that. Nobody's going to tell you not to. Don't attempt to tell anybody else how to feel either.

[samagon]

On 5/12/2022 at 5:37 PM, Big E said:

The people who are being "displaced" are being paid for their property and being given assistance to move, so they don't need your pity. And the people living next to this project are already living next to a freeway, so this probably won't disturb them as much as you think it does. You can drop your feigned interest in these people you don't even know. Its not impressing anyone here.

if I were trying to impress you, it seems to me that the easiest way to accomplish that would be to suggest bulldozing more to add more freeways, but you believe what you want.

[Big E]

23 hours ago, samagon said:

if I were trying to impress you, it seems to me that the easiest way to accomplish that would be to suggest bulldozing more to add more freeways, but you believe what you want.

Now we raise straw men to knock down, bringing up things I never once suggested. You're slipping, my friend.

[samagon]

1 hour ago, Big E said:

Now we raise straw men to knock down, bringing up things I never once suggested. You're slipping, my friend.

point is, if I were trying to get internet points I'd cruise over to a place where the SJW is an echo chamber and everyone pats everyone else on the back for their internet activism. I find it ironic that you are questioning any logical fallacy when you yourself used one first by questioning my character. may as well call this one a draw and move on mate. neither of us win, we both lose.

anyway, the stop i45 team is going to be speaking with HGAC on Friday at 9:30

[Andrew Ewert]

On 5/13/2022 at 8:41 PM, Big E said:

If you don't think he's being disingenuous, that's your belief, and you're free to believe that. Nobody's going to tell you not to. Don't attempt to tell anybody else how to feel either.

Imo, judging someone to be disingenuous requires a much greater familiarity with a person and their beliefs than you're going to get on an internet forum. Automatically tacking anyone online who disagrees with you as disingenuous is, at best, a very weak position to argue from. If your position is strong, then take them at their word and debate the merits aboveboard. It's incredibly short-sighted to assume that others cannot possibly genuinely care about something that you yourself do not.

[mattyt36]

24 minutes ago, Andrew Ewert said:

Imo, judging someone to be disingenuous requires a much greater familiarity with a person and their beliefs than you're going to get on an internet forum. Automatically tacking anyone online who disagrees with you as disingenuous is, at best, a very weak position to argue from. If your position is strong, then take them at their word and debate the merits aboveboard. It's incredibly short-sighted to assume that others cannot possibly genuinely care about something that you yourself do not.

This thread is full of nakedly disingenuous arguments made by @samagon, none of which he actually engages on.  So many places to start . . .

"This project is really about commuters from Conroe to Galveston," and "oh, it's all about the environmental issues" or "It's all about the people who will be forced to move" and then later in the thread suggesting the right thing to do would be to just widen 610 East because, I guess, on the east side environmental impacts or relocating people doesn't matter or such a project is under some happy rainbow of protection.  Plenty of statements made about the project or TxDOT that are shown time and time again to be false or be entirely baseless, yet he keeps recycling them.  That is the very definition of disingenuous.  @samagon's beliefs--whatever they are--are immaterial to basic facts and logic.

And don't fault at least some of us for associating such rhetorical techniques with the possibility that he doesn't really give two sharts about what he says he cares about.  Yes, we certainly could be wrong about the genuineness of his statements, but such a conclusion isn't coming out of nowhere.

Edited May 17, 2022 by mattyt36

[ADCS]

On 5/13/2022 at 9:54 AM, Texasota said:

Just because you disagree with someone doesnt mean theyre being disingenuous. Ad that's, at most, a difference of degree not kind.

After years of argumentation, the only coherent argument made is a purely NIMBY one - that the East End (and only the East End) should be forever preserved against any sort of potential public development whose benefits to the city and region at large may exceed those to the neighborhood itself. The grounds are purely moral - a justice-based argument stemming from the historical wrongs perpetuated against the community by admittedly racist and sectarian local governments, separated in place and time from the proposed development.

The arguments become disingenuous when they stray from these grounds. It's clear when the arguer does not actually care about the points being made, and that they're only being made to buttress the core argument, whose merits the arguer is not confident enough to support on their own.

Edited May 17, 2022 by ADCS

[samagon]

you're certainly right, I live in the EE, and I have very specific issues with the project as they relate to myself, and my community.

but to suggest that I don't care about the issues of the other communities that are negatively impacted, or that I am simply using them towards my own evil ends? 

it is very easy for me to be empathetic to their issues, because I will experience some of the same issues they do related to this project. there are people being removed (whether they are compensated or not) from their communities. there are people who are having their access to their local communities made more difficult. all so there's an easier commute for someone from the woodlands, or so some xurb community might be able to attract development that will bring in more tax dollars to their little hamlets? that I am, and will argue against. I may not be the most eloquent, but that doesn't mean I don't care, or that my argument isn't valid.

I do find it funny in a very hypocritical way that many people who complain of any logical fallacy I may commit, then themselves commit a logical fallacy by attacking me, instead of my arguments. but please do, carry on.

[mattyt36]

4 minutes ago, samagon said:

I do find it funny in a very hypocritical way that many people who complain of any logical fallacy I may commit, then themselves commit a logical fallacy by attacking me, instead of my arguments. but please do, carry on.

Spare us the self-indulgent dramatics.  The logical fallacies have all been pointed out specifically and substantively time and time and time again.  

4 minutes ago, samagon said:

you're certainly right, I live in the EE, and I have very specific issues with the project as they relate to myself, and my community.

but to suggest that I don't care about the issues of the other communities that are negatively impacted, or that I am simply using them towards my own evil ends? 

it is very easy for me to be empathetic to their issues, because I will experience some of the same issues they do related to this project. there are people being removed (whether they are compensated or not) from their communities. there are people who are having their access to their local communities made more difficult. all so there's an easier commute for someone from the woodlands, or so some xurb community might be able to attract development that will bring in more tax dollars to their little hamlets? that I am, and will argue against. I may not be the most eloquent, but that doesn't mean I don't care, or that my argument isn't valid.

Thank you for the above as it is probably the best (and only internally coherent) summation of your opposition.  It's not some noble opposition to pollution, nor some romantic social justice concern, it's not love of transit or any "better way."  It's simply avoiding your own inconvenience.  Which, by the way, makes complete and total sense and is entirely defensible!  Think of all the elbow grease you could've saved by avoiding all the disingenuous arguments on the side.  But reasons of naked self-interest--as fundamental as it may be to the human condition--just aren't that appealing to others.

[samagon]

I made the mistake of clicking the options button, and then reading the post.

hahaha.

can't resist just piling on the ad hominem attacks. love you buddy, keep being who you are and every now and then, I'll make the mistake of clicking the options button, and reading your post to remind myself that I made the right decision in ignoring you.

maybe one of these days, I'll make the mistake of reading one of your posts and be pleasantly surprised by something insightful. so far though, you keep hitting expectations by posting something inciteful.

[mattyt36]

1 hour ago, samagon said:

I made the mistake of clicking the options button, and then reading the post.

hahaha.

can't resist just piling on the ad hominem attacks. love you buddy, keep being who you are and every now and then, I'll make the mistake of clicking the options button, and reading your post to remind myself that I made the right decision in ignoring you.

maybe one of these days, I'll make the mistake of reading one of your posts and be pleasantly surprised by something insightful. so far though, you keep hitting expectations by posting something inciteful.

Uh huh. This is the guy who goes on and on and on about substance. 🙄

Oh the irony. 

Regardless, glad we could finally put this to rest.

[Big E]

On 5/17/2022 at 3:52 PM, samagon said:

all so there's an easier commute for someone from the woodlands, or so some xurb community might be able to attract development that will bring in more tax dollars to their little hamlets?

I like how you like to couch this as some kind of zero sum game. The people from the Woodlands win, therefore you lose. You completely ignore all the actual benefits this project gives to your own neighborhood, like the cap parks and sunken freeways, plus better street access for surrounding communities, because it might benefit the rich white guy in the suburbs.

Its amazing how you've enunciated how your own opposition is based on how this disadvantages you specifically (and others in your neighborhood, as an aside), yet you, in the same breath, make it clear that you couldn't care less how this project actually benefits others in the region, and in fact you've shown nothing but spite towards them, and yet you expect anyone else, inside or outside this thread, to actually give a damn about your position? Does that make sense to you?

And yes, I did find what you said disingenuous. We've already been over how the people directly affected by this project will be compensated. You continuing to throw this pity party for the "poor little poor people who will lose their houses" benefits no one but you and your ego. It adds nothing to the thread, nor to the greater conversation. None of those people will read your comment and pat you on the back for your pity, nobody in charge of this project will see your comment nor care about it. And what's more, nobody affected by this asked for your pity. You don't speak for them. Heck, some of them might actually WANT TO SELL their property to the state and come out if it with a fistful of cash, and you definitely don't speak for them.

So yes, stop with the disingenuous statements that are only designed to make you seem like a better person for feigning to care. Your flippant attitude comes through your words and belies your actual lack of dog in this fight. I mean seriously, what was the point of this statement:

On 5/11/2022 at 8:00 AM, samagon said:

mean, let's not dramatize some dying futurists dreams to see i45 relocated from the west side of town to the east being some impactful reason that this project should move forward with alacrity. if it takes 60 more years for this to complete in a manner that has less impact on the lives of those living near it, and none of us get to see it completed, I'll have it in my will that someone locate and play the worlds smallest violin in the honor of all of us that never got to see this 'dream' come to life.

What does this add to the conversation? Not a doggone thing.

Edited May 22, 2022 by Big E

[Ross]

8 hours ago, Big E said:

I like how you like to couch this as some kind of zero sum game. The people from the Woodlands win, therefore you lose. You completely ignore all the actual benefits this project gives to your own neighborhood, like the cap parks and sunken freeways, plus better street access for surrounding communities, because it might benefit the rich white guy in the suburbs.

Its amazing how you've enunciated how your own opposition is based on how this disadvantages you specifically (and others in your neighborhood, as an aside), yet you, in the same breath, make it clear that you couldn't care less how this project actually benefits others in the region, and in fact you've shown nothing but spite towards them, and yet you expect anyone else, inside or outside this thread, to actually give a damn about your position? Does that make sense to you?

And yes, I did find what you said disingenuous. We've already been over how the people directly affected by this project will be compensated. You continuing to throw this pity party for the "poor little poor people who will lose their houses" benefits no one but you and your ego. It adds nothing to the thread, nor to the greater conversation. None of those people will read your comment and pat you on the back for your pity, nobody in charge of this project will see your comment nor care about it. And what's more, nobody affected by this asked for your pity. You don't speak for them. Heck, some of them might actually WANT TO SELL their property to the state and come out if it with a fistful of cash, and you definitely don't speak for them.

So yes, stop with the disingenuous statements that are only designed to make you seem like a better person for feigning to care. Your flippant attitude comes through your words and belies your actual lack of dog in this fight. I mean seriously, what was the point of this statement:

What does this add to the conversation? Not a doggone thing.

I don't see losing the Pierce Elevated as a plus, nor do I think sinking the freeways is a plus. I do not believe the cap parks will ever be built, and I do not believe that the displaced people will be fully compensated for losing their homes they've had for decades. I do not think that this project will make Houston a better place to live, given the probable 2 or 3 decades of disruption it will create.

There are portions of the overall project that should be done, like improving drainage along 45 between 610 and Shepherd, but the rerouting of freeways to the East of Downtown is an utter waste of resources with no real benefit.

[Twinsanity02]

As much as elevated freeways are an eyesore, how does sinking roadways in Houston ( or anywhere along the Gulf Coast) benefit the people living there? The rainfalls along the Gulf Coast can be incredible and no amount of pumps is going to prevent flooding and hence trapping people. If someone can explain the benefit of sinking freeways  ( outside of looks) please feel free to explain. 

[august948]

32 minutes ago, Twinsanity02 said:

As much as elevated freeways are an eyesore, how does sinking roadways in Houston ( or anywhere along the Gulf Coast) benefit the people living there? The rainfalls along the Gulf Coast can be incredible and no amount of pumps is going to prevent flooding and hence trapping people. If someone can explain the benefit of sinking freeways  ( outside of looks) please feel free to explain. 

It's a method of creating a large water detention feature in a very urbanized area where there would otherwise be no room, saving the surrounding homes and businesses from flooding.

[Big E]

3 hours ago, Ross said:

I don't see losing the Pierce Elevated as a plus, nor do I think sinking the freeways is a plus.

Okay, but, you don't really explain why you feel that way, so that's neither here nor there.

3 hours ago, Ross said:

I do not believe the cap parks will ever be built,

Based on what? Caps will for sure be built if the project ever finally gets underway, as they are now officially part of the project, so something will be built on them eventually. Plenty of entities are invested in those caps being developed into some mix of parkland and development. So this statement means less than nothing.

 

3 hours ago, Ross said:

I do not believe that the displaced people will be fully compensated for losing their homes they've had for decades.

Except that is exactly what TxDOT have explained they are going to do. Your beliefs aren't fact and can be dismissed for being counterfactual.

 

3 hours ago, Ross said:

I do not think that this project will make Houston a better place to live, given the probable 2 or 3 decades of disruption it will create.

Two to three decades is merely a timeline you pulled out of your butt. And any construction disruption is temporary no matter how long it lasts. But the positives it will bring to the city are permanent.

 

3 hours ago, Ross said:

but the rerouting of freeways to the East of Downtown is an utter waste of resources with no real benefit.

Says you, based on nothing.

[Twinsanity02]

1 hour ago, august948 said:

It's a method of creating a large water detention feature in a very urbanized area where there would otherwise be no room, saving the surrounding homes and businesses from flooding.

Thank you for that information. Very sensible approach as long as it does not impede greatly the ability to flee during a major hurricane. Tokyo has an amazing approach to deal with its flooding problems which I do not know whether it would be applicable in Houston.

[Ross]

3 hours ago, Big E said:

Okay, but, you don't really explain why you feel that way, so that's neither here nor there.

Based on what? Caps will for sure be built if the project ever finally gets underway, as they are now officially part of the project, so something will be built on them eventually. Plenty of entities are invested in those caps being developed into some mix of parkland and development. So this statement means less than nothing.

 

Except that is exactly what TxDOT have explained they are going to do. Your beliefs aren't fact and can be dismissed for being counterfactual.

 

Two to three decades is merely a timeline you pulled out of your butt. And any construction disruption is temporary no matter how long it lasts. But the positives it will bring to the city are permanent.

 

Says you, based on nothing.

Once again, you attack people for their opinions. There is no requirement that I back up my opinions, as they are just that, opinions. I do not think the cap parks will ever be built, because I do not think there will be money to build them, regardless of what TxDOT says. I also think that taking people's property for a project like this is a bad thing. It should be built within the current boundaries of existing roads. I also felt that way about the Katy expansion.

I'm in my 60's. There is every likelihood I'll be dead before this project is completed. That's not temporary, since TxDot hasn't shown any great ability to finish projects in a timely manner.

 

[Big E]

5 hours ago, Ross said:

Once again, you attack people for their opinions.

I'm not attacking you for your opinions. I'm pointing out that your opinions don't mean anything because they have nothing to support them. If you don't want people questioning your opinions, don't express them.

 

5 hours ago, Ross said:

There is no requirement that I back up my opinions

And there is no requirement that I can't call you out for making unsubstantiated claims. Fun fact: opinions can be wrong. If there is factual information disproving your opinion, then I have every right to call out your opinion as wrong.

 

5 hours ago, Ross said:

I do not think the cap parks will ever be built, because I do not think there will be money to build them, regardless of what TxDOT says.

TxDOT aren't building the cap parks. This has been explained multiple times in this thread. The physical caps over the highways ARE being built. They are part of the project plan now. So those are a given, assuming this project still happens at all. The parks will be built by other public entities, non-profits, private groups, or (more than likely) some combination of the above. Those groups will find the money to do so. Multiple entities (the city, TIRZ, etc.) have already committed to doing something with the caps.

 

5 hours ago, Ross said:

I also think that taking people's property for a project like this is a bad thing. It should be built within the current boundaries of existing roads. I also felt that way about the Katy expansion.

Well that is well and truly your opinion, but you don't really explain why you feel that way. Your position is untenable; some things just can't be done in the existing right of way.

 

5 hours ago, Ross said:

I'm in my 60's. There is every likelihood I'll be dead before this project is completed. That's not temporary, since TxDot hasn't shown any great ability to finish projects in a timely manner.

While regrettable, that's life. A lot of people died before the Big Dig was finished. It is what it is. Just because some people will die before the project's completion is not a reason to stop the project.

[Ross]

8 hours ago, jdbaker said:

Eminent domain lawyer here. I can assure you that for the very few owner occupied homes along this project it will be the greatest cash windfall most of these folks see in their lifetimes. 

What's your point? Many folks could not care less about the money. They want to stay in the neighborhood and home they've lived in for many years. There are other reasons as well - a friend got eminent domained by a gas pipeline that now runs across his ranch. He didn't want the money, and would have preferred to keep the trees as opposed to the 60 foot wide clear cut path across the West end of his property. In other words, it ain't all about the money for a lot of people.