I-45 Rebuild (North Houston Highway Improvement Project)

[rechlin]

I have no idea why they did the website switch, because the new txdot.gov/nhhip.html site is a convoluted mess, which requires way too much clicking and scrolling, compared to the much more friendly ih45northandmore.com site.

Fortunately, it does seem most/all of the old information is still on the new site, even if it's not easy to find.  Just go here and click "Show All" below "Newsletters" and you can find the documents:

https://www.txdot.gov/nhhip/updates.html

If you still want to use the old site, it's on the Wayback Machine:

https://web.archive.org/web/20220120064733/http://www.ih45northandmore.com/

[hindesky]

TXDOT owns all 3.

[editor]

On 5/17/2022 at 11:24 AM, mattyt36 said:

This thread is full of nakedly disingenuous arguments made by @samagon, none of which he actually engages on.  So many places to start . . .

 

Please talk about issues, not people.  I don't want this to devolve into personal attacks.

[texan]

This is a METRO presentation but slide 4 has a (updated?) schedule of the downtown segment phases.

https://ridemetro.granicus.com/MetaViewer.php?view_id=5&clip_id=2286&meta_id=60546

[BEES?!]

Sounds like they want to get the Wheeler station area out of the way first. That’s good, since it’ll probably coincide well with the opening of the University Line. The Wheeler station re-do is something I’m very interested in. 

[Amlaham]

Estimated start date is by the end of this year?! AND they're going to start by trenching the elevated portion of i59 in Midtown/ Museum District?!

 

[MaxConcrete]

4 hours ago, Amlaham said:

Estimated start date is by the end of this year?! AND they're going to start by trenching the elevated portion of i59 in Midtown/ Museum District?!

Even though that Metro document is recent, it is not consistent with recent information from TxDOT and H-GAC.

TxDOT published this update on May 26

https://ftp.txdot.gov/pub/txdot/commission/2022/0526/7c.pdf

The project remains on hold by FHWA, and TxDOT is authorized for limited pre-construction work on sections 3A, 3B and 3C. See page 5 of document above. If the FHWA hold is released this month (which appears unlikely), earliest possible starts are

3A: 2024 (not 2023 shown in the Metro document)
3B: 2025 (not 2024 shown in the Metro document)

According to the recent H-GAC STIP update (link below), these are the ONLY projects scheduled to start before 2026. All other work is removed from the STIP (which covers four fiscal years 2023-2026), see page 15. In a presentation that was given for the STIP (but I can't find online), they mentioned that the next project after 3A and 3B would be 3C1 (Interchange at I-45 and I-10 northwest side of downtown), with the earliest possible start in 2028.

https://www.h-gac.com/getmedia/d4768bd3-bd75-45a9-a512-fe477354c952/PDF-of-FY-2023-2026-TIP-Project-List-Public-comment

As long as the FHWA hold in in place, the delays will become longer. The only work that might begin construction within 5 years is I-69 in midtown.

Edited June 13, 2022 by MaxConcrete

[freundb]

We should start a pool and make guesses on when the project will start (or finish). At this point I feel like I'll be able to vacation on the moon before I drive on this. 

[editor]

On 6/13/2022 at 6:43 PM, freundb said:

We should start a pool and make guesses on when the project will start (or finish). At this point I feel like I'll be able to vacation on the moon before I drive on this. 

It's scheduled to be completed right after the Trans Texas Corridor.

[mattyt36]

11 hours ago, editor said:

It's scheduled to be completed right after the Trans Texas Corridor.

Man, the understated snark! I’m admittedly an admirer.

[nate4l1f3]

 

[X.R.]

Houston and Dally won the world cup bid for 2026. If I'm those cities I have an honest conversation with TxDot about what they can finish before the WC comes, for any portion of their highway proposals that already have the greenlight [so for Houston, only the midtown 59 part?]. Dally has a highway TxDot wants to entrench now too, the one by Deep Ellum, i think its i-345. 

The Dallas one won't be as bad since the main airport is on the west side and so i-345 won't be used by travelers to Dally or Jerryworld/Arlington. Still wouldn't want my city to have a gaping hole in it next to a major entertainment district [deep ellum]. Houston just can't tolerate a disruption to the redline during the WC. It was basically built for this moment. So they better get to work on entrenching that highway later this year or...😬

[freundb]

56 minutes ago, X.R. said:

Houston and Dally won the world cup bid for 2026. If I'm those cities I have an honest conversation with TxDot about what they can finish before the WC comes, for any portion of their highway proposals that already have the greenlight [so for Houston, only the midtown 59 part?]. Dally has a highway TxDot wants to entrench now too, the one by Deep Ellum, i think its i-345. 

The Dallas one won't be as bad since the main airport is on the west side and so i-345 won't be used by travelers to Dally or Jerryworld/Arlington. Still wouldn't want my city to have a gaping hole in it next to a major entertainment district [deep ellum]. Houston just can't tolerate a disruption to the redline during the WC. It was basically built for this moment. So they better get to work on entrenching that highway later this year or...😬

The most reasonable thing we can hope for before the World Cup is the lighting fixed on the I69 bridges. Completing road construction by then is a stretch.

[X.R.]

15 hours ago, freundb said:

The most reasonable thing we can hope for before the World Cup is the lighting fixed on the I69 bridges. Completing road construction by then is a stretch.

Its so true, lol. Which is wild because so many other countries that get infected by the FIFA curse get so much construction done, meanwhile we're like "yeah, dunno if burying a short stretch of highway can be done in three and a half years." 

 

[Houston19514]

9 minutes ago, X.R. said:

Its so true, lol. Which is wild because so many other countries that get infected by the FIFA curse get so much construction done, meanwhile we're like "yeah, dunno if burying a short stretch of highway can be done in three and a half years." 

 

That section should be well into construction, but because of the plodding, incompetent federal government, construction is still apparently a year or more away.

Send complaints/suggestions to:

Pete Buttigieg

U.S. Department of Transportation
1200 New Jersey Ave, SE
Washington, DC 20590

cc:  Sheila Jackson Lee -- 1919 Smith Street, Suite 1180, Houston, TX 77002

Edited June 17, 2022 by Houston19514

[H-Town Man]

On 6/12/2022 at 8:44 PM, MaxConcrete said:

Even though that Metro document is recent, it is not consistent with recent information from TxDOT and H-GAC.

TxDOT published this update on May 26

https://ftp.txdot.gov/pub/txdot/commission/2022/0526/7c.pdf

The project remains on hold by FHWA, and TxDOT is authorized for limited pre-construction work on sections 3A, 3B and 3C. See page 5 of document above. If the FHWA hold is released this month (which appears unlikely), earliest possible starts are

3A: 2024 (not 2023 shown in the Metro document)
3B: 2025 (not 2024 shown in the Metro document)

According to the recent H-GAC STIP update (link below), these are the ONLY projects scheduled to start before 2026. All other work is removed from the STIP (which covers four fiscal years 2023-2026), see page 15. In a presentation that was given for the STIP (but I can't find online), they mentioned that the next project after 3A and 3B would be 3C1 (Interchange at I-45 and I-10 northwest side of downtown), with the earliest possible start in 2028.

https://www.h-gac.com/getmedia/d4768bd3-bd75-45a9-a512-fe477354c952/PDF-of-FY-2023-2026-TIP-Project-List-Public-comment

As long as the FHWA hold in in place, the delays will become longer. The only work that might begin construction within 5 years is I-69 in midtown.

Wow. What a kibosh they put on this. I'm not even going to say who. Everybody knows who.

 

[Houston19514]

13 minutes ago, H-Town Man said:

Wow. What a kibosh they put on this. I'm not even going to say who. Everybody knows who.

 

But it bears repeating:  Pete Buttigieg.  Sheila Jackson Lee.  Joe Biden.

[H-Town Man]

35 minutes ago, Houston19514 said:

But it bears repeating:  Pete Buttigieg.  Sheila Jackson Lee.  Joe Biden.

No Lina?

 

[Houston19514]

1 minute ago, H-Town Man said:

No Lina?

 

LOL   She certainly had a hand in it and bears responsibility.  

[HoustonMidtown]

Demo equipment moving in

 

[TacoDog]

 

[mattyt36]

On 6/17/2022 at 2:43 PM, Houston19514 said:

LOL   She certainly had a hand in it and bears responsibility.  

As far as I can tell, this all originated with the Harris County lawsuit against the State after Mayor Turner tried very much to intervene between the two. The DoT may have taken the wrong side, and that’s certainly their fault, but it does seem to have been the product of the hyperbolic rhetoric about the community opposition and romantic ideas about Jane Jacobs and Babs Mikulski and stopping 1960s highway projects as some sort of larger political movement. Lina overplayed her hand in a big, big way by not knowing the majority of her constituents and digging the hole so unnecessarily deep. I’ll still vote for her since she doesn’t give me the full-on Leni Reifenstahl vibes, but I hope she will treat this as a “learning experience.”

Bringing Biden into this is more than a bit laughable, and I’ll keep that one in the memory bank when it comes to gauging credibility in the future.

[kennyc05]

If anyone had to guess do you think the rebuild will be built as is with the current plans?

[mattyt36]

17 minutes ago, kennyc05 said:

If anyone had to guess do you think the rebuild will be built as is with the current plans?

I'm sure there will be modifications--I believe that's what's being negotiated right now in connection with the original lawsuit, which I don't believe has been dismissed or fully settled (correct me if I'm wrong).  The first agreement was on proceeding with more preliminary work for the downtown segments.

Seems like of the 4 involved entities--the City, the County, the State, and the federal government--the City presented a compromise plan before the DoT halted spending with slight modifications that is probably the path forward.

[Houston19514]

1 hour ago, mattyt36 said:

As far as I can tell, this all originated with the Harris County lawsuit against the State after Mayor Turner tried very much to intervene between the two. The DoT may have taken the wrong side, and that’s certainly their fault, but it does seem to have been the product of the hyperbolic rhetoric about the community opposition and romantic ideas about Jane Jacobs and Babs Mikulski and stopping 1960s highway projects as some sort of larger political movement. Lina overplayed her hand in a big, big way by not knowing the majority of her constituents and digging the hole so unnecessarily deep. I’ll still vote for her since she doesn’t give me the full-on Leni Reifenstahl vibes, but I hope she will treat this as a “learning experience.”

Bringing Biden into this is more than a bit laughable, and I’ll keep that one in the memory bank when it comes to gauging credibility in the future.

The FHWA Is part of the the Department of Transportation , the Secretary of which was appointed by and serves at the pleasure of the president of the United States.  He is ultimately responsible.

1 hour ago, kennyc05 said:

If anyone had to guess do you think the rebuild will be built as is with the current plans?

The current plans have never been completely final, to be built without shot further change. But my bet all along has been that this go forward with very minor changes and TXDoT pressing to do things they were already planning/obligated to do.

[kennyc05]

54 minutes ago, mattyt36 said:

I'm sure there will be modifications--I believe that's what's being negotiated right now in connection with the original lawsuit, which I don't believe has been dismissed or fully settled (correct me if I'm wrong).  The first agreement was on proceeding with more preliminary work for the downtown segments.

Seems like of the 4 involved entities--the City, the County, the State, and the federal government--the City presented a compromise plan before the DoT halted spending with slight modifications that is probably the path forward.

 

8 minutes ago, Houston19514 said:

The FHWA Is part of the the Department of Transportation , the Secretary of which was appointed by and serves at the pleasure of the president of the United States.  He is ultimately responsible.

The current plans have never been completely final, to be built without shot further change. But my bet all along has been that this go forward with very minor changes and TXDoT pressing to do things they were already planning/obligated to do.

Do you think they go as drastic as just building within the current right away and not taking any right of way.

[mattyt36]

34 minutes ago, Houston19514 said:

The FHWA Is part of the the Department of Transportation , the Secretary of which was appointed by and serves at the pleasure of the president of the United States.  He is ultimately responsible.

OK, then George W Bush was responsible for killing the University Line, I guess, not John Culberson.  C'mon, give me a break.

Tell me where I'm wrong on any of this:

-Someone, somewhere, my theory is some Democratic political operative thought that this was some "winning issue" and created this Stop NHHIP group as some sort of political grassroots organization--my best guess is it was thought this could be spun off into other political grassroots organizations and events to ensure Harris County continued to get "bluer."  It was totally misguided and stupid politics.  They had no plan, at least that I can see. God knows what they told people when they knocked on doors. And God knows who funded it all. This project had been in review for more than a decade and there had been very, very little vocalized opposition, why, because except for a few, everyone could see quite clearly that there was no comparison between this project and the early freeway projects. In fact, stating that is quite the insult to the ones who had to live through it before.

-Lina misplayed her hand and sued the State, thinking it was somehow a political winner, or she could somehow reprogram the funds, despite the City trying to intervene.

-The County asked the DoT to intervene, should be no surprise that a new administration, I don't believe even more than a week old, sided with the local government in this case, which was led by an "up-and-comer" in the Democratic Party where "up-and-comers" are few and far between.  Should they have done a little more research?  Absolutely.  Boneheaded political move?  It will probably work out that way, at least for Lina and certainly won't win any points for the Democrats in Houston, but when all is said and done, the DoT deciding to intervene pending further review versus choosing not to and leaving itself open to future Civil Rights lawsuits after being requested to do so by the County may end up saving time (and the project) in the long run--seriously, you must realize this.  Was Biden even consulted on it?  C'mon.  Should he have been?  Um, I think we should all hope the President focuses on the much bigger fish to fry, and delegating these things to a cabinet member is entirely understandable, and we shouldn't be surprised by his decision (at least I'm not).  Ill-informed, sure.  But what's done is done and it's all about saving face now.

 -The lawsuit has not been dismissed or settled, no?  The parties appear to be negotiating a settlement.  Maybe I’m wrong. I haven’t read about here or in the Houston Chronicle, although as far as the latter goes it doesn’t surprise me as I don’t think even Dug Begley has a full appreciation of what’s going on.

So, I ask you again, where did this all start?

Edited June 21, 2022 by mattyt36

[mattyt36]

31 minutes ago, kennyc05 said:

 

Do you think they go as drastic as just building within the current right away and not taking any right of way.

Doubt it, especially given all the land acquisitions, I agree with @Houston19514 on this.

[Houston19514]

10 hours ago, kennyc05 said:

 

Do you think they go as drastic as just building within the current right away and not taking any right of way.

Very unlikely

[Houston19514]

11 hours ago, mattyt36 said:

OK, then George W Bush was responsible for killing the University Line, I guess, not John Culberson.  C'mon, give me a break.

Congressmen are not appointed by, do not report to, and cannot be dismissed by the President.  Joe Biden likes to take credit for infrastructure spending, but he’s allowing his appointees to block this project.  He could get it back on track this morning with one phone call.

Edited June 21, 2022 by Houston19514