I-45 Rebuild (North Houston Highway Improvement Project)

[mattyt36]

2 hours ago, j_cuevas713 said:

Thanks for making my point 

J, why don't you help us understand your point?

There seemed to be two in your original message:

17 hours ago, j_cuevas713 said:

Yeah just a bunch of businesses nobody cares about like Matty and Big E said.

That there are a "bunch of businesses nobody cares about"?

I guess that's accurate.  Pretty much anywhere.  Do you "care" about businesses in Conroe?

17 hours ago, j_cuevas713 said:

These are what make Houston great. 

Seems like a weird blanket statement to make, unless you have a history with these guys and they are your preferred opticians.  Or, are they just "great" because they agree with your position on NHHIP?  Again, seems to be a pretty weird way to develop a position about small businesses.

Perhaps what would be most instructive is if you tell us how the position of this business should be weighed against the positions of others.  There must be some "system" in your head, something like:

1) Small business=weighted more than big business because . . . ?

2) Business located close to freeway but not in right-of-way=weighted more than business that may use the freeway but not adequately "near" it because . . . ?

In re (2), how close do they need to be to get the special consideration?  Do you envision it as a simple veto on any prospective project?  Assuming you fly out of HOU, if residents of Glenbrook Valley are opposed to a couple new gates at HOU, does the same standard apply?

Help us understand.

[Ross]

2 hours ago, Montrose1100 said:

Are we sure?

We've got a cluster around Eureka Heights, and some within the loop at Pierce Junction, some inside the beltway 

RRC Map

This one wasn't on the map. I looked at the time - I've been a frequent user of the RRC maps for a long time, it's the easiest way to get a map of the land grants with abstract numbers I know of, and it's superimposed over recognizable landmarks like streets. Throw in the image layer, and it's even better. The RRC has done a great job of trying to record as many well locations as possible, but there are some missing.

[JClark54]

3 hours ago, Houston19514 said:

No.  They are not within the expansion ROW.  

The owner of Smith's has stated a portion of the lot behind the structure itself will be taken. It's currently used as parking for employees of his business and those of the other establishments in the strip center. 

[Houston19514]

3 hours ago, JClark54 said:

The owner of Smith's has stated a portion of the lot behind the structure itself will be taken. It's currently used as parking for employees of his business and those of the other establishments in the strip center. 

Ten years or so ago, it was indeed used for some parking. But anyone can take a look at Google street view and see that stopped parking back there years ago, and at least as of January 2020 the portion of the lot behind the structure is currently a fenced-in grass-covered nothing.

Edited August 26, 2021 by Houston19514

[JClark54]

12 hours ago, Houston19514 said:

Ten years or so ago, it was indeed used for some parking. But anyone can take a look at Google street view and see that stopped parking back there years ago, and at least as of January 2020 the portion of the lot behind the structure is currently a fenced-in grass-covered nothing.

I'll take my daily view of the area as neighborhood resident over a January 2020 street view any day. The fence was erected to stop defecation and vandalism from the encampment that developed under the highway. 

Using a street view nearly two years old to justify your point is lazy. 

Edited August 26, 2021 by JClark54

[kbates2]

1 minute ago, JClark54 said:

I'll take my daily view of the area as an area resident over a January 2020 street view any day. The fence was erected to stop defecation and vandalism from the encampment that developed under the highway. 

Sounds like an argument for trenching the freeway.

[JClark54]

I never said I am opposed to Section 3. Just thought I'd offer context on why a business along the proposed dropped section might not like it. There was a lot of speculation above. 

Edited August 26, 2021 by JClark54

[Montrose1100]

I'm all for preserving historic structures, beautiful warehouses, and mostly anything interesting. However, honestly, don't understand why we're defending strip centers when we all bust out the champagne if an apartment complex has GFR. The city needs to densify and a strip center with a surface lot are protest worthy?

Everything and nothing is sacred in this town. 

Build the HSR. Improve the freeways. 

[Amlaham]

I completely agree with Montrose! I feel for those who may have to move, but for the businesses/ churches? The majority of the highway is surrounded by crumbling infrastructure. There are WAY too many billboards and abandoned signs, driveways in mediocre state, and absolutely no landscaping. Im sure every single one of us acknowledge that this highway is an extreme eyesore. I understand that the money could be spent on numerous other projects but this project would be a HUGE positive for Houston. Imagine if this highway ends up looking like the Katy freeway. I know there's still a traffic issue on Katy freeway but its a BEAUTIFUL highway. The highway is surrounded with lush landscape and greenery. Driving from i45 to i10 is like night and day. i45 is by far one of the ugliest highways I've ever seen (and i've been to NY, FL, CA, CO). Its one of the first impressions outsiders get when they travel from the airport and the reason a lot of outsiders say "Houston is ugly".  I think the Houston architecture forum should realize that this project is going to beautify our city. Yes public transportation should be our main focus, but THIS highway and the surrounding strip centers needs to be addressed as well. We can pass this project and see an instant improvement to the area, or we can reject it and wait for each and every parcel to be renovated/ rebuild (if and when).......so maybe in the next 100-200 years? 

Edited August 26, 2021 by Amlaham

[Houston19514]

11 hours ago, JClark54 said:

I'll take my daily view of the area as neighborhood resident over a January 2020 street view any day. The fence was erected to stop defecation and vandalism from the encampment that developed under the highway. 

Using a street view nearly two years old to justify your point is lazy. 

I live in the neighborhood too.  Whatever their reason for putting up the fence with padlocked gate, the fact is, there is nobody parking back there on anything close to a regular basis.

Edited August 26, 2021 by Houston19514

[JClark54]

3 hours ago, Houston19514 said:

I live in the neighborhood too.  Whatever their reason for putting up the fence with padlocked gate, the fact is, there is nobody parking back there on anything close to a regular basis.

They parked there just every business day, especially when the ticket resale place was in business, prior to COVID. Obviously now, parking demand is less. Basing perceived long-term parking lot usage off what one sees (or street views) during COVID would be suboptimal, though, as many businesses have seen decreased parking demand during this time. 

I know the lot is in use because I've parked in it every year to get eyeglasses and many times for tickets. Each instance, my car was not the only one there. 

Regardless of our differing views on "regular," or whether we're for or against for the project, a business owner can still dislike the taking of property he owns. Especially as Wheeler evolves with the possible BRT line, parking will be a premium and he owns the whole strip center, so he has to think of prospective tenant needs.

That being said, I am for the segment. My initial comment was not in opposition to the segment, but just to correct the erroneous claim above that none of his land is in the right of way. A portion of the rear parking lot is. The 10 years or so claim also mentioned in response is also inaccurate, as I have parked there many times in the last decade.

 

 

 

 

Edited August 27, 2021 by JClark54

[Houston19514]

16 hours ago, JClark54 said:

They parked there just every business day, especially when the ticket resale place was in business, prior to COVID. Obviously now, parking demand is less. Basing perceived long-term parking lot usage off what one sees (or street views) during COVID would be suboptimal, though, as many businesses have seen decreased parking demand during this time. 

I know the lot is in use because I've parked in it every year to get eyeglasses and many times for tickets. Each instance, my car was not the only one there. 

Regardless of our differing views on "regular," or whether we're for or against for the project, a business owner can still dislike the taking of property he owns. Especially as Wheeler evolves with the possible BRT line, parking will be a premium and he owns the whole strip center, so he has to think of prospective tenant needs.

That being said, I am for the segment. My initial comment was not in opposition to the segment, but just to correct the erroneous claim above that none of his land is in the right of way. A portion of the rear parking lot is. The 10 years or so claim also mentioned in response is also inaccurate, as I have parked there many times in the last decade.

 

 

 

 

FWIW, the project's maps do not show the "parking lot" being taken.  The entire parking lot is shown outside the right-of-way.

[Naviguessor]

39 minutes ago, Houston19514 said:

FWIW, the project's maps do not show the "parking lot" being taken.  The entire parking lot is shown outside the right-of-way.

On 8/25/2021 at 1:06 AM, Big E said:

I don't even know if their business is actually in danger of being taken,

 

The phrase "Being Taken" is misleading.   Owners of properties are being compensated.   Business can move, change or cash out.  Happens all the time.   

[JClark54]

2 hours ago, Houston19514 said:

FWIW, the project's maps do not show the "parking lot" being taken.  The entire parking lot is shown outside the right-of-way.

 

If you zoom in, they are seeking a small, negligable corner of the lot, quotations or not aside. What's he's upset about is the loss of most of the driveway accessing the lot. Per the letter he received from TxDOT and presented at neighborhood meetings with TxDOT, the agency is seeking enough of the driveway as part of ROW to make vehicular access challenging, unless he carves out the corner to accommodate a new driveway. So multiple spots would be hard to access otherwise. 

I don't really care to continually debate whether the space merits parking lot status or not. You feel it's not based on your quotation usage and claim that it hasn't been used in more than a decade. I and others have parked there on occasion so I feel it qualifies as one. These apparent differing views on its usage do not offer further value to the discussion. It just wastes my time and yours as well as those on the forum. 

My initial post wasn't an attempt to refute the merits of a project over the lot. It was to provide insight that he was losing a small amount of land despite what you claimed. 

 

Edited August 27, 2021 by JClark54

[samagon]

more articles about how adding lanes just doesn't help.

https://arstechnica.com/cars/2021/08/please-stop-adding-more-lanes-to-busy-highways-it-doesnt-help/?comments=1&post=40177651

Austin is specifically referenced, and Houston is pictured.

Poor TxDOT is taking a beating.

[j_cuevas713]

These guys are leading the fight against this project

https://www.instagram.com/p/CTGA9P-Japp/?utm_medium=copy_link 

Edited August 27, 2021 by j_cuevas713

[rechlin]

I thought this project wasn't really adding lanes, except bus lanes which is what we do desperately need to improve mass transit?

[Big E]

On 8/25/2021 at 10:27 AM, j_cuevas713 said:

Thanks for making my point

As @mattyt36 said, I don't really get what your point is. What is your actual point here? Fact of the matter is, these are a bunch of businesses nobody cares about, and no, they don't make Houston great, at least not on their own. There are hundreds of businesses like them, many of which actually support this project. Should this one business which opposes this project, for its own selfish reasons, get more consideration than others which support it, for their own self-interested reasons?

7 hours ago, Naviguessor said:

 

The phrase "Being Taken" is misleading.   Owners of properties are being compensated.   Business can move, change or cash out.  Happens all the time.   

Yeah, that was slip of the tongue on my part. I didn't want to imply that they were "literally" just going to take the business from them, only that they were going to get hit with eminent domain.

6 hours ago, samagon said:

more articles about how adding lanes just doesn't help.

https://arstechnica.com/cars/2021/08/please-stop-adding-more-lanes-to-busy-highways-it-doesnt-help/?comments=1&post=40177651

Austin is specifically referenced, and Houston is pictured.

Poor TxDOT is taking a beating.

Except the main point of this project is not to add lanes. Segments 1 and 2 are mainly adding bus/managed lanes. Segment 3 isn't adding any lanes at all, only moving existing lanes to the other side of downtown, sinking a whole bunch of lanes below grade, and straightening the freeways. This segment for I-69 south of downtown is only sinking a freeway, not adding lanes. So this argument is completely pointless in regards to this project. In fact, I remember the old Keep Houston Houston blog criticizing the proposal years ago specifically because it didn't add any lanes, as it pointed out that one of the problems with the downtown ring is that it has far fewer lanes within it than the freeways coming into it and going out of it carry, which snarls traffic is you squeeze multiple lanes into tighter roads.

Edited August 28, 2021 by Big E

[mattyt36]

17 hours ago, Big E said:

As @mattyt36 said, I don't really get what your point is. What is your actual point here? Fact of the matter is, these are a bunch of businesses nobody cares about, and no, they don't make Houston great, at least not on their own. There are hundreds of businesses like them, many of which actually support this project. Should this one business which opposes this project, for its own selfish reasons, get more consideration than others which support it, for their own self-interested reasons?

Yeah, that was slip of the tongue on my part. I didn't want to imply that they were "literally" just going to take the business from them, only that they were going to get hit with eminent domain.

Except the main point of this project is not to add lanes. Segments 1 and 2 are mainly adding bus/managed lanes. Segment 3 isn't adding any lanes at all, only moving existing lanes to the other side of downtown, sinking a whole bunch of lanes below grade, and straightening the freeways. This segment for I-69 south of downtown is only sinking a freeway, not adding lanes. So this argument is completely pointless in regards to this project. In fact, I remember the old Keep Houston Houston blog criticizing the proposal years ago specifically because it didn't add any lanes, as it pointed out that one of the problems with the downtown ring is that it has far fewer lanes within it than the freeways coming into it and going out of it carry, which snarls traffic is you squeeze multiple lanes into tighter roads.

Keep Houston Houston, great memories!  I miss it as much as Swamplot.

[Houston19514]

On 8/27/2021 at 3:36 PM, JClark54 said:

 

If you zoom in, they are seeking a small, negligable corner of the lot, quotations or not aside. What's he's upset about is the loss of most of the driveway accessing the lot. Per the letter he received from TxDOT and presented at neighborhood meetings with TxDOT, the agency is seeking enough of the driveway as part of ROW to make vehicular access challenging, unless he carves out the corner to accommodate a new driveway. So multiple spots would be hard to access otherwise. 

I don't really care to continually debate whether the space merits parking lot status or not. You feel it's not based on your quotation usage and claim that it hasn't been used in more than a decade. I and others have parked there on occasion so I feel it qualifies as one. These apparent differing views on its usage do not offer further value to the discussion. It just wastes my time and yours as well as those on the forum. 

My initial post wasn't an attempt to refute the merits of a project over the lot. It was to provide insight that he was losing a small amount of land despite what you claimed. 

 

We shall see.  I would expect that TxDot will happily allow his driveway to exist within the right of way (or make negligible adjustments to the right of way to allow for his driveway).
 

That being said, he might have a stronger case if he was actually currently using it as a parking lot.  

(BTW, I did NOT claim it had not been used as a parking lot for more than a decade.)

Edited August 28, 2021 by Houston19514

[JClark54]

I apologize, you didn't write a decade. You wrote: "Ten years or so ago, it was indeed used for some parking."

"That being said, he might have a stronger case if he was actually currently using it as a parking lot."  

Glad to see you acknowledge he's impacted, regardless of whether or not it's a parking lot. 

"We shall see.  I would expect that TxDot will happily allow his driveway to exist within the right of way (or make negligible adjustments to the right of way to allow for his driveway)."

I'm sure he'd love to know your insight that TxDOT may be willing to accommodate him. 

Edited August 29, 2021 by JClark54

[BEES?!]

I’ve been seeing a lot of opposition to this over on Reddit (among other places), but I’m confused. I thought that segment 3 has been pretty heavily-supported overall, and it was mostly segments 1 & 2 that were in contention.

I keep seeing people talking about lanes being added- do they mean the whole project, a specific segment, or is it the putting multiple freeways together and giving it a big footprint people are talking about? I was under the impression that txdot wanted to add managed/transit lanes but not much else. 
 

Is the project still open for public comment, or did they close the surveys? What is the timeline they’re looking at right now?

[ADCS]

40 minutes ago, BEES?! said:

I’ve been seeing a lot of opposition to this over on Reddit (among other places), but I’m confused. I thought that segment 3 has been pretty heavily-supported overall, and it was mostly segments 1 & 2 that were in contention.

I keep seeing people talking about lanes being added- do they mean the whole project, a specific segment, or is it the putting multiple freeways together and giving it a big footprint people are talking about? I was under the impression that txdot wanted to add managed/transit lanes but not much else. 
 

Is the project still open for public comment, or did they close the surveys? What is the timeline they’re looking at right now?

Everything is on hold for now. Reddit is mostly teenagers/early twentysomethings who parrot what the current trends are, and right now, to be reflexively against any freeway project is very trendy.

[JClark54]

The Texas Transportation Commission is set to consider the 2022 Unified Transportation Program, of which the proposed IH 45 project is a part of, at their meeting Tuesday. Commissioners have indicated in statements that they may vote to accept the 10-year plan as is with the project included or remove it. 

The full UTP is found here: https://ftp.txdot.gov/pub/txdot/tpp/utp/utp-2022.pdf. 

Edited August 30, 2021 by JClark54

[samagon]

1 hour ago, BEES?! said:

I’ve been seeing a lot of opposition to this over on Reddit (among other places), but I’m confused. I thought that segment 3 has been pretty heavily-supported overall, and it was mostly segments 1 & 2 that were in contention.

I keep seeing people talking about lanes being added- do they mean the whole project, a specific segment, or is it the putting multiple freeways together and giving it a big footprint people are talking about? I was under the impression that txdot wanted to add managed/transit lanes but not much else. 
 

Is the project still open for public comment, or did they close the surveys? What is the timeline they’re looking at right now?

this sentiment confuses me so much, the whole way on segment 1 and 2 there is usually 1 extra main lane of traffic in each direction. this is on top of the addition of the managed lanes.

segment 3, just i45 mainlanes, there's between 3 and 5 lanes, not including ramps to change freeways. the entire distance of the pierce elevated is 3 lanes in each direction. 

segment 3 is harder to reconcile additional main lanes specific for i45 realignment because currently there's on/off ramps for Pease/Jefferson, and those are maintained (along with entry/exits farther north of this) in the current alignment of 45, while the through alignment moves to the other side of downtown, and maintains the same number of lanes, or adds additional lanes.

not to mention that 59 adds lanes in the segment where it is parallel to i45. currently there's 4 lanes (in each direction) of 59 next to the GRB, in the expansion there are 5 SB, and 6 NB lanes on 59.

https://hntbcorp.maps.arcgis.com/apps/webappviewer/index.html?id=24136b20c5a24e299895dbb2504c89ec

[X.R.]

TXDot hearings going on right now on this topic, they got 8200 comments, a "record number of comments" regarding this project. So I'm sure they have heard it from every angle covered in this thread and much more: 

https://twitter.com/Gail_HPM/status/1432734763014672394?s=20

It seems Commissioner Cagle, Galveston County Commissioner Ken Clark, and The Montgomery County Judge Keogh made the trip. 

Survey Results of said comments:

Edited August 31, 2021 by X.R.

[JClark54]

The TTC just voted to approve the 2022 unified transportation program with the proposed IH 45 project included, contingent upon the FHA and TxDOT resolving their differences.

Edited August 31, 2021 by JClark54

[Luminare]

1 hour ago, X.R. said:

TXDot hearings going on right now on this topic, they got 8200 comments, a "record number of comments" regarding this project. So I'm sure they have heard it from every angle covered in this thread and much more: 

https://twitter.com/Gail_HPM/status/1432734763014672394?s=20

It seems Commissioner Cagle, Galveston County Commissioner Ken Clark, and The Montgomery County Judge Keogh made the trip. 

Survey Results of said comments:

Seems pretty definitive to me. Understandable if the support vs against was more even, but it was clear for a while that the objections and those giving TXDOT a "beating" were a very vocal minority. The best can hope for is that their concerns are mediated during revisions, and I would certainly like to see some opposition propositions put in place. I was always for the other redesign options instead of the typical TXDOT solution. Lets see what moves forward. Finally though this can start making headway and eventually get built.

[samagon]

as @JClark54 mentions, still gotta get past the FHA issues with the project, and they have to get through the lawsuit from the county as well.

I was very much expecting the people being for this project to be in the majority, and I have to look to Star Trek for guidance, as this is tough moral ground upon which we walk.

clearly, logic dictates that the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few, which we learned in Star Trek II: The Wrath of Khan.

but then, we learn in the beginning of Star Trek IV: The Voyage Home, that while the logical answer is that the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few, that the human thing to do is to put the needs of the few ahead of the needs of the many and that these two concepts are at odds.

anyway, using character development arcs from science fiction movies probably won't do much here other than to get a sensible chuckle from a few, or draw ire from others, but whatever, it's how my brain works.

[mattyt36]

1 hour ago, samagon said:

I was very much expecting the people being for this project to be in the majority

I didn't get that vibe 🤣

In fairness, 8,170 comments out of an MSA with 7 million people.

Out of curiosity, did anyone on here submit a comment?  I didn't . . . other than here, of course.

Looks like there was a real opportunity to mobilize people on both sides and, at the end of the day, neither side really did.  Maybe most of the 5K "pro" comments were mobilized by the GHP and local chambers of commerce.  Still way lower than I would have expected.

Edited August 31, 2021 by mattyt36