The Abandoned Astrodome And Its Future

[Reefmonkey]

On 12/17/2022 at 3:40 PM, Ross said:

The largest High School stadiums are around 20,000 seats. 

The 15 largest stadiums in the US are all college football stadiums. In Houston, there's Rice Stadium, TDECU Stadium at UH, the TSU stadium, and whatever HBU is using. No reason they couldn't be venues, since colleges and universities will sell their souls for more funds.

Problem is all those stadiums are open-air, with no ability to cover. Someone spending $500 a ticket for Taylor Swift concert isn't going to want to swelter outside in Houston's sometimes 9 month long hot humid summer.

[Reefmonkey]

On 12/17/2022 at 6:31 AM, editor said:

Tearing something down just because it's old is so... Houston.

Funny how the 15 largest stadia in America are all older than the Astrodome, yet they still keep chugging along, and aren't left to rot and embarrass the city.  Just because it's a dome doesn't make it any more special or fragile than other stadia.  Domes get replaced and renovated all the time.  Even Minute Maid Park has had its roof replaced.

 

 

On the other hand, the original Yankee Stadium (1923-2008) was a lot more storied than the Astrodome, one could say the same of Candlestick Park (1958-2014), the Miami Orange Bowl, and a lot of other historic stadiums that were torn down because they had outlived their usefulness. Even many stadiums that were closer in vintage to the Astrodome, like Three Rivers in Pittsburg and Texas Stadium in DFW, have been torn down. Houston is actually somewhat unique in NOT tearing down the Astrodome, stubbornly clinging to an old husk of a building that hasn't been used in TWENTY YEARS because Ed Emmett so didn't want to be associated with its teardown that he was willing to gaslight Harris County voters.

[trymahjong]

Hmmmmmmm

i've been mulling this over.....some where there is an archive of suggestions generated by " interested parties" from a contest, of sorts, 8-10 years ago.

 

I heard a few of them presented when the CTC was having meetings upstairs at Rudyards. 
The one that hooked my imagination was a science/astromy museum proposal. It was  all about a darkened  huge venue where many many  raised walkways lead you to a " journey" of planets and star constellations- some actual models but some done with special effects and lighting........space age type head sets gave an explanation, thrilling star wars type music was played.....that who schpeel.....

 

sigh, this is the point where I would have some kazillionaire would come out of the wood work step up and throw lots and lots of Monet towards making a vanity project like that.....like those millionaires in the past did libraries .........current kazillionaires could do museums geared towards science and beyond.

[Big E]

On 12/17/2022 at 6:31 AM, editor said:

Except that Houston does need a stadium, as illustrated above.

Illustrated how? What illustrates this? Houston has a stadium for every major league in the U.S., numerous college stadiums, high school stadiums, etc. Who needs a stadium, and why couldn't they just build one themselves?

 

On 12/17/2022 at 6:31 AM, editor said:

Once again, supporting a car-focused society strangles progress.

This really has nothing to do with cars or automobiles. The stadium is already surrounded by hundreds of parking spaces. adding a few more means nothing.

 

On 12/17/2022 at 6:31 AM, editor said:

  Too bad the county-owned building isn't being used for the best interest of the public that the county is supposed to represent, instead of a small set of private millionaires.

It being county owned is irrelevant. It has no purpose and serves no uses. Its a money pit, which apparently no one who actually lives in the county cares to actually put money into. 

 

On 12/17/2022 at 6:31 AM, editor said:

Funny how the 15 largest stadia in America are all older than the Astrodome, yet they still keep chugging along, and aren't left to rot and embarrass the city.

All of those are college stadiums that get regular use and have permanent tenants in college teams that aren't going anywhere, with the exception of the Cotton Bowl, which at least gets regular event games in the form of the Red River Showdown, State Fair Classic, and the First Responder Bowl, even if it lacks a permanent regular tenant.

On 12/17/2022 at 6:31 AM, editor said:

Just because it's a dome doesn't make it any more special or fragile than other stadia.

And yet you are arguing against tearing it down?

[hbg.50]

On 12/20/2022 at 9:49 AM, Reefmonkey said:

On the other hand, the original Yankee Stadium (1923-2008) was a lot more storied than the Astrodome, one could say the same of Candlestick Park (1958-2014), the Miami Orange Bowl, and a lot of other historic stadiums that were torn down because they had outlived their usefulness. Even many stadiums that were closer in vintage to the Astrodome, like Three Rivers in Pittsburg and Texas Stadium in DFW, have been torn down. Houston is actually somewhat unique in NOT tearing down the Astrodome, stubbornly clinging to an old husk of a building that hasn't been used in TWENTY YEARS because Ed Emmett so didn't want to be associated with its teardown that he was willing to gaslight Harris County voters.

Those stadiums were “storied” because of what happened there.  The Astrodome is storied because it was the first of its kind and because it represents Houston.  It is the one landmark in Houston that when people see they know it is Houston.  It is iconic.

People complain endlessly that Houston doesn't preserve it’s history.  Tearing down the Astrodome would be the epitome of that.

If anything is torn down it should be NRG and Rice Stadium.  Why not rebuild NRG where Rice Stadium currently sits?  It’s centrally located and still accessible by rail.  Make the Astrodome complex into a park.  It could be renovated just for concerts and open air festivals.  Keep the Rodeo there if necessary.

[Ross]

2 hours ago, steve1363 said:

Those stadiums were “storied” because of what happened there.  The Astrodome is storied because it was the first of its kind and because it represents Houston.  It is the one landmark in Houston that when people see they know it is Houston.  It is iconic.

People complain endlessly that Houston doesn't preserve it’s history.  Tearing down the Astrodome would be the epitome of that.

If anything is torn down it should be NRG and Rice Stadium.  Why not rebuild NRG where Rice Stadium currently sits?  It’s centrally located and still accessible by rail.  Make the Astrodome complex into a park.  It could be renovated just for concerts and open air festivals.  Keep the Rodeo there if necessary.

Rice University might have something to say about that plan. And, there's nowhere near enough parking for an NRG sized stadium at Rice, which has been consuming stadium parking for  building locations. That was easy to do once the capacity was reduced from 70,000+ to 40,000. There is also no room for the multiple practice fields the Texans use, or the bubble.

[mkultra25]

5 hours ago, Ross said:

Rice University might have something to say about that plan. 

Artist's conception of the moment that plan was proposed at a meeting of the Rice Board of Trustees:

[hbg.50]

5 hours ago, mkultra25 said:

Artist's conception of the moment that plan was proposed at a meeting of the Rice Board of Trustees:

No doubt.  Where are the men like Jesse H. Jones and Judge Roy Hofheinz when you need them?  Men with a vision and the leadership to get things done.

[Big E]

6 hours ago, steve1363 said:

No doubt.  Where are the men like Jesse H. Jones and Judge Roy Hofheinz when you need them?  Men with a vision and the leadership to get things done.

I don't consider lack of vision to be the issue with this particular idea. Its just not feasible to put a stadium that big at that location.

[hbg.50]

8 hours ago, Big E said:

I don't consider lack of vision to be the issue with this particular idea. Its just not feasible to put a stadium that big at that location.

My constraint is having the stadium accessible by rail.  That is one huge benefit of the current NRG.

I could not think of any open spaces on 45 (the red line).  I wonder if there is anything off Harrisburg?

[Ross]

45 minutes ago, steve1363 said:

My constraint is having the stadium accessible by rail.  That is one huge benefit of the current NRG.

I could not think of any open spaces on 45 (the red line).  I wonder if there is anything off Harrisburg?

There is no open space on Harrisburg large enough for any sort of stadium..

[Big E]

2 hours ago, Ross said:

There is no open space on Harrisburg large enough for any sort of stadium..

There's no other open space anywhere inside the Loop large enough for any sort of stadium outside NRG park.

[Reefmonkey]

On 12/22/2022 at 6:40 AM, steve1363 said:

Those stadiums were “storied” because of what happened there.  The Astrodome is storied because it was the first of its kind and because it represents Houston.  It is the one landmark in Houston that when people see they know it is Houston.  It is iconic.

People complain endlessly that Houston doesn't preserve it’s history.  Tearing down the Astrodome would be the epitome of that.

If anything is torn down it should be NRG and Rice Stadium.  Why not rebuild NRG where Rice Stadium currently sits?  It’s centrally located and still accessible by rail.  Make the Astrodome complex into a park.  It could be renovated just for concerts and open air festivals.  Keep the Rodeo there if necessary.

It would be sad if a professional sports venue, and one that hosted a baseball team that never won a league pennant, let alone went to the World Series, while it played there, and a football team that never won a conference, let alone went to the Super Bowl, were the thing that represents Houston. How does the hollow shell that hosted losing sports teams represent Houston’s forward-thinking, innovative, can-do attitude as the Energy Capital of the World, home of the manned space program, most diverse city in the country? Houston isn’t a sports town like Boston or Chicago, Houstonians have always been fair weather sports fans at best, what we HAVE always been proud of is our association with the space program. Mission Control at JSC, whose metonym was the first word spoken on the moon, THAT’S a place that represents Houston, that reminds us where the “Astro” in “Astrodome” comes from. 
 

Buildings age. They sometimes outlive their usefulness. Sometimes they can be repurposed, sometimes their historical significance can be a compelling reason for finding a way to repurpose a building that would otherwise be torn down. In the case of the Astrodome, we’ve had 23 years to find a feasible way to repurpose it, multiple proposals that were all found lacking, with no better ideas emerging. It’s time to Let. It. Go. Hanging onto a building that has no practical purpose anymore out of nostalgia like a hoarder hangs onto stacks of old newspapers is anathema to the forward-thinking, always reinventing itself attitude that truly represents what Houston is. We were a cotton town. Then we were an oil town. Then we became Space City. We were proud of the Astrodome when it was shiny and new, the sports stadium of the future, but now closed dome stadiums are the stadiums of the past. That’s not Houston. 
 

As for tearing down Rice Stadium to move NRG there, despite the fact that NRG and the parking necessary for it wouldn’t fit there, the mostly residential street design surrounding the stadium would be a nightmare for the traffic that Texans games and other events that NRG hosts draw, I’d think that Rice University might have something to say about the Harris County Sports and Convention Authority trying to take over its property. And the citizens of Harris County might have something to say about NRG, which hasn’t beenpaid off yet, being torn down and an expensive new stadium being built again. And tearing down Rice Stadium, still considered the best stadium in Texas for watching football, still a viable building in active use, which also happens to be the site where JFK made his famous speech about going to the moon, which inaugurated Houston’s involvement in the space program - both a terrible idea for sustainability and building use, and respect for Houston’s actual important history (the space program, not mediocre sports).

Edited December 29, 2022 by Reefmonkey

[hbg.50]

@Reefmonkey you think of the Astrodome as a "professional sports venue."  I think of the Astrodome as an architectural marvel.

You want it demolished.  I want it restored to a productive building. Nothing will change your mind.  Nothing will change my mind.  Let's agree to disagree.

I really don't want to argue based on sports history or events, but I would remind you that the Game of the Century was played there and that was the precursor to what is now March Madness's grand spectacle (which coincidentally is in NRG in 2023).  Remember the "battle of the sexes?"  Political conventions?  Billy Graham crusades....there is so much history in that building.

As for Rice Stadium, I merely threw out that idea to stimulate more ideas.  So far on this forum there is a dearth of ideas, but plenty of excuses to do nothing.

 

 

 

 

[Big E]

11 hours ago, steve1363 said:

So far on this forum there is a dearth of ideas, but plenty of excuses to do nothing.

Because the only real realistic idea...is to tear it down. We can argue till we are blue in the face about what to do about the space after the building is gone.

[hbg.50]

On 12/29/2022 at 10:21 PM, Big E said:

Because the only real realistic idea...is to tear it down. We can argue till we are blue in the face about what to do about the space after the building is gone.

How about an indoor garden?  Check out this indoor waterfall at the Singapore airport:

The roof kind of looks like the dome!

[BeerNut]

If they turn it into anything that is a draw then access will be limited on event days.  I doubt the Texans and HLSR want to share and want to keep all the space to themselves during their events.  Maybe the county can sell some of the parking to fund whatever they want to do with the dome but if another tax vote to save the dome is on the ballot I'll be voting no again.

Edited January 3, 2023 by BeerNut

[Reefmonkey]

On 12/29/2022 at 10:40 AM, steve1363 said:

So far on this forum there is a dearth of ideas, but plenty of excuses to do nothing.

 

 

 

 

 

It is not correct to say there is a "dearth of ideas" - there have been plenty of ideas advanced over the last 23 years, none of which proved feasible or well-supported. You don't see more ideas thrown out here in the last couple of years because we've heard and considered all of the ideas for repurposing the Astrodome in one or more iteration. That's a pretty good indicator that we've exhausted all alternatives, and it's time to stop beating our heads against the wall.  "Agree to disagree" about demolishing a building vs restoring it to productive use ceases to be a reasonable stance when preservationism becomes stubborn obstructionism that allows an outmoded building to remain a vacant eyesore instead of letting the land it is on be repurposed to its highest and best use. That's neither fair to Houston nor whatever legacy the Astrodome deserves. It's like a pet owner refusing to euthanize a decrepit, suffering pet out of sentiment.

And I think maybe we should look at sports history or events with a jaundiced eye if sentimentality about these events is what's keeping us from moving on. We've already dealt with the building's main purpose, housing the Astros, and then the Oilers, coinciding with those teams being wildly mediocre, so no storied legacy there.

"The Game of the Century"? If that name isn't a perfect example of Sports' hyperbolic self-importance, I don't know what is. So it was the first televised regular season college basketball game - seems what is significant about it is not that it was played IN the Astrodome, but that it was played ON Television.

"The Battle of the Sexes"? A gimmicky stunt that people had mostly forgotten about until Steve Carrell was in a movie about it a few years ago, a few years after he made another sports biopic about some Olympic wrestlers most people had forgotten about or never heard of to begin with. The game between Bobby Riggs and Billie Jean King wasn't even the first such stunt, Riggs had already beaten Margaret Court in Ramona, California a few months earlier. The Astrodome was chosen simply because King was already in Houston, having just played the Virginia Slims (not at the Astrodome). Even if you consider the event itself anything more than a sideshow, the Astrodome's involvement in the event was incidental.

As for political conventions, it only held the 1992 RNC, where Bush/Quayle were predictably nominated to run again (and lost in the General), not particularly noteworthy, not like the 1968 Democratic National Convention, held in Chicago's International Ampitheater (which was torn down in 1999).

As far as being an architectural marvel, if anything, it's a monument to domed stadiums, and multi-purpose stadiums, being a failed experiment. It was never a particularly good stadium to see a baseball game in, or play one in (all the dead air and long outfield fences made it a bad stadium for hitters, and by the construction of Camden Yards, the people had spoken, they wanted to watch baseball outside), and it was a TERRIBLE concert venue, accoustics were horrible and the performers looked like ants out in the middle of the field. The fact that its architectural integrity had to be compromised by the ramps in order to comply with the Americans with Disabilities Act shows what an outmoded design it was even by 1989.

Edited January 3, 2023 by Reefmonkey

[Highrise Tower]

Has anyone, in 17 years, suggested we should turn this into a Life Science campus?

Build another large-scale Bio Technology campus so we would have more square footage than Boston/Cambridge

[Big E]

On 3/3/2023 at 9:18 PM, Highrise Tower said:

Has anyone, in 17 years, suggested we should turn this into a Life Science campus?

Build another large-scale Bio Technology campus so we would have more square footage than Boston/Cambridge

All the same problems with this running into issues with the existing tenants of the other buildings (The Houston Rodeo, the Texans, etc.) still apply, unfortunately. I think we just need to face that there is nothing else that can be done with this space, and its destiny is to become another parking lot.

[samagon]

On 12/23/2022 at 2:52 PM, Big E said:

There's no other open space anywhere inside the Loop large enough for any sort of stadium outside NRG park.

according to my rough outline on google maps, parking plus stadium (not including practice center, dome, NRG center, or NRG arena) we're looking at 10,000,000 sf of land.

just for poops and laughs...

Hermann Park Golf course is 6,000,000 sf of land.

the Englewood rail yard (whatever it's called, between Lockwood and Wayside just inside NE 610) that's 10,000,000 sf.

from i10 to 8th, and from Yale to Studewood gives you about 10,000,000 sf.

realistically though, land for parking inside the loop is stupid. every new dealership in the loop is building a parking garage, even some outside the loop are building garages. 

so if we're honest, you could probably build a 2-3 garages, a practice field and the stadium on 3,000,000 (maybe even less) land.

now all of the sudden the county only has to condemn a few properties. 59-Bissonnet-Buffalo Speedway-Wakeforest. 2,900,000 sf. Glenwood Cemetery starts looking pretty attractive too, 3,000,000 sf

make all the jail stuff move, use some downtown parking, and you can drop the stadium right on buffalo bayou in the heart of downtown.

if I'm honest, the cemetery idea is probably bad, we don't want the ghost of Howard Hughes cursing our team.

ok, if you've made it through that silliness, the serious answer is that the stadium doesn't need to move, the dome doesn't need to go, but thanks to the impossibilities pointed out, the use is limited. we really missed an opportunity back when they were giving out shuttles to make a real space museum. they could move the Apollo 5 rocket, get a real space shuttle to sit on the 747, and they'd both have fit in the space easily. not sure how they'd get all of it in there without taking the dome apart, but whatever, it would be awesome to see.

swap out all the frosted tiles for actual glass and make the world's largest indoor garden. 

museum, or park, that's about all it can be, unless they want to refit it to be office space, or condos, but really the point should be publicly accessible something.

Edited March 6, 2023 by samagon

[Big E]

16 hours ago, samagon said:

ok, if you've made it through that silliness, the serious answer is that the stadium doesn't need to move, the dome doesn't need to go, but thanks to the impossibilities pointed out, the use is limited.

If the dome can't be used, then it does need to go. Its just a drain on resources continuing to maintain it just so that it doesn't fall in on itself. As of now, there is nothing that can practically be put there as a result of the tenants using the other existing structures. Ergo, get rid of it, save the money on maintenance, pave it over as a parking lot, and, if you want, maybe redevelop some of the parking on the edge of the sports district to compensate. Anything that could be built in that stadium could just as easily be built somewhere else.

[Houston19514]

On 3/7/2023 at 1:13 AM, Big E said:

If the dome can't be used, then it does need to go. Its just a drain on resources continuing to maintain it just so that it doesn't fall in on itself. As of now, there is nothing that can practically be put there as a result of the tenants using the other existing structures. Ergo, get rid of it, save the money on maintenance, pave it over as a parking lot, and, if you want, maybe redevelop some of the parking on the edge of the sports district to compensate. Anything that could be built in that stadium could just as easily be built somewhere else.

The thing is... the DOME CAN be used.  It seems the best (and fairly obvious) use is the $217 Million proposal that was poorly promoted and ignorantly voted down a few years back.  An Exhibition facility to add to the existing convention/exhibition facilities of NRG Center.  The car show was interested in using it.  OTC would use it. Rodeo and the Texans could certainly use it.  It is a sad time for Houston that we cannot come up with the resources and imagination to make use of an historic structure. (Dallas is in the beginning stages of spending Billions of Dollars to build a new convention center, and Houston/Harris County can't figure out how to come with a quarter billion to do an exciting renovation of the Dome?  PATHETIC AND EMBARRASSING)  Where are the dreamers and doers that made Houston; the type of people who built a city out of nothing at Allens Landing, turned an inland city one of the world's largest seaports, brought us Bush Intercontinental Airport and, indeed, brought us the 8th Wonder of the Modern World, the Astrodome itself?

We need a modern version of the suite in the old downtown hotel where leaders gathered to make things happen.  We need LEADERSHIP at the county and city levels!

Edited March 23, 2023 by Houston19514

[Big E]

On 3/23/2023 at 12:08 PM, Houston19514 said:

The thing is... the DOME CAN be used.

Whether it can be used isn't really the issue. The issue is one of practicality and hard, cold reality. The current tenants of the other venues don't want anything there that will disrupt their current operation, precluding anything like year round businesses from opening. Nobody in the county wants to spend money on an aging dome. There's no sport that needs or wants the dome for any kind of usage. NOBODY cares that much. Better it be torn down than continue to be an eyesore. At least, then the land can be put to some use.

[Houston19514]

1 hour ago, Big E said:

Whether it can be used isn't really the issue. The issue is one of practicality and hard, cold reality. The current tenants of the other venues don't want anything there that will disrupt their current operation, precluding anything like year round businesses from opening. I don't want to spend money on an aging dome. There's no sport that needs or wants the dome for any kind of usage. I don't care that much. Better it be torn down than continue to be an eyesore. At least, then the land can be put to some use.

FIFY  

 

The recent news of discussions among all parties about the future of NRG Park certainly adds a new wrinkle (and new hope), especially with the context of the Rodeo and Texans lease renewals also being in play.  https://www.bisnow.com/houston/news/commercial-real-estate/houstons-nrg-park-area-is-underdeveloped-its-leader-is-ready-to-do-something-about-it-118261

Edited March 29, 2023 by Houston19514

[BeerNut]

On 3/23/2023 at 12:08 PM, Houston19514 said:

The thing is... the DOME CAN be used.  It seems the best (and fairly obvious) use is the $217 Million proposal that was poorly promoted and ignorantly voted down a few years back.  An Exhibition facility to add to the existing convention/exhibition facilities of NRG Center.  The car show was interested in using it.  OTC would use it. Rodeo and the Texans could certainly use it.  It is a sad time for Houston that we cannot come up with the resources and imagination to make use of an historic structure. (Dallas is in the beginning stages of spending Billions of Dollars to build a new convention center, and Houston/Harris County can't figure out how to come with a quarter billion to do an exciting renovation of the Dome?  PATHETIC AND EMBARRASSING)  Where are the dreamers and doers that made Houston; the type of people who built a city out of nothing at Allens Landing, turned an inland city one of the world's largest seaports, brought us Bush Intercontinental Airport and, indeed, brought us the 8th Wonder of the Modern World, the Astrodome itself?

We need a modern version of the suite in the old downtown hotel where leaders gathered to make things happen.  We need LEADERSHIP at the county and city levels!

If spending around a quarter billion dollars...how about use 30 million to demolish and build a purpose built building with the remaining 220 million.  Shoehorning something into out dated sports stadium that will get minimally used is a waste. 

[j_cuevas713]

27 minutes ago, BeerNut said:

If spending around a quarter billion dollars...how about use 30 million to demolish and build a purpose built building with the remaining 220 million.  Shoehorning something into out dated sports stadium that will get minimally used is a waste. 

It can't be demolished, it's a State Antiquities Landmark.

[BeerNut]

12 minutes ago, j_cuevas713 said:

It can't be demolished, it's a State Antiquities Landmark.

How many centuries for it crumble?

[j_cuevas713]

49 minutes ago, BeerNut said:

How many centuries for it crumble?

. idk but I don't expect it to go that long without some work being done

[Houston19514]

1 hour ago, BeerNut said:

If spending around a quarter billion dollars...how about use 30 million to demolish and build a purpose built building with the remaining 220 million.  Shoehorning something into out dated sports stadium that will get minimally used is a waste. 

You are making a lot of assumptions that are not in evidence.