The Abandoned Astrodome And Its Future

[Brooklyn173]

I think the issue is the rodeo. I think I've read that they have contractual rights to the property during the entirety of the rodeo.

And the astrodome has Texas Historic designation. It's not going anywhere.

[Houston19514]

1 hour ago, Brooklyn173 said:

I think the issue is the rodeo. I think I've read that they have contractual rights to the property during the entirety of the rodeo.

And the astrodome has Texas Historic designation. It's not going anywhere.

Rodeo needs the grounds for Rodeo and yes, has very strong contractual rights to that (reasonably so, considering Rodeo has paid for a good portion of the complex).  Also, the Texans demand and have contractual rights to the grounds for parking.

[mattyt36]

20 hours ago, Houston19514 said:

A modicum of creativity and commitment from the county?

I hear you and am entirely with you, but let's not forget a redevelopment proposal went to voters in 2013 and it failed 53%-47%.

Granted, it's up to the County (or someone!) to propose something else, and incorporate as much private funding as possible, but public funding will still be critical and I'm not sure it's the guaranteed political winner you think it is given other funding needs.  The referendum was for $217 million, and it was within a decade of building 3 new stadia--MMP (in 2000) for $250 million, NRG (in 2002) for $350 million, and Toyota (in 2003) for $235 million.

When the bonds are paid off for MMP, Toyota, and NRG, there should theoretically be more financial capacity that should make taxpayers indifferent from a financial perspective.  That should be coming in the next 10 years, so the planning should be happening in earnest now (along with whatever reinvestment is needed for the other stadia).

[Houston19514]

13 minutes ago, mattyt36 said:

I hear you and am entirely with you, but let's not forget a redevelopment proposal went to voters in 2013 and it failed 53%-47%.

Granted, it's up to the County (or someone!) to propose something else, and incorporate as much private funding as possible, but public funding will still be critical and I'm not sure it's the guaranteed political winner you think it is given other funding needs.  The referendum was for $217 million, and it was within a decade of building 3 new stadia--MMP (in 2000) for $250 million, NRG (in 2002) for $350 million, and Toyota (in 2003) for $235 million.

When the bonds are paid off for MMP, Toyota, and NRG, there should theoretically be more financial capacity that should make taxpayers indifferent from a financial perspective.  That should be coming in the next 10 years, so the planning should be happening in earnest now (along with whatever reinvestment is needed for the other stadia).

It was a good proposal, but VERY poorly presented and marketed and then subjected to a lot of ignorant attacks that were not adequately rebuffed. Waiting another ten years is not acceptable (although I may well have to accept given the county "leadership").  A county of 4.75 million people should be able to handle the relatively small burden of the investment to make this extraordinary asset useful and productive.  (And just to remind you and everyone... none of the stadium financings raised taxes on local taxpayers (unless they rent cars or do a staycation in a local hotel.)  It's an embarrassment to be sitting there unused with no plan and no attempt by current leadership to come up with a plan. The past leaders of Houston who made us the world's energy capital, and brought us the ship channel, Johnson Space Center, and the Astrodome, must be spinning in their graves.  The County owns this building; the County needs to take the lead; get the Texans, the Rodeo, the OTC, and the Astrodome Conservancy all together in a room and come up with a plan that everyone can be excited about. (A "plan" that does not have the full support of the Texans and the Rodeo is not a plan worth wasting time on.)

Edited December 9, 2022 by Houston19514

[mattyt36]

14 minutes ago, Houston19514 said:

(And just to remind you and everyone... none of the stadium financings raised taxes on local taxpayers (unless they rent cars or do a staycation in a local hotel.)

Just because people from out of town are paying shouldn't mean that you can just go and plop on more financial obligations on them--IMO that's not good policy, especially if you're trying to develop an inbound tourism and convention market.  Our hotel tax rates are (or were, at one time) among the highest in the country.  This is from 2014, but you get the point--as the subtitle says "Who'd have thought Honolulu would be cheaper than Houston?":

Booking a Hotel? These Cities Have the Highest Hotel Taxes -- Consumer Reports

(And also to remind you and everyone . . . the Sports Authority (like a lot of issuers) had a pretty rough time at it for a good while with all the variable rate debt post financial crisis.)

[BeerNut]

 

Hasn't current public sentiment shifted away from constantly funding new stadiums every couple decades.  Maybe team owners and the county should be looking for ways for these places to provide revenue besides event days.   Other cities seems to be moving toward this.   Mixed-use sports developments position themselves as truly year-round destinations

 

 

This should probably be moved to stadia forum.

[Houston19514]

35 minutes ago, mattyt36 said:

Just because people from out of town are paying shouldn't mean that you can just go and plop on more financial obligations on them--IMO that's not good policy, especially if you're trying to develop an inbound tourism and convention market.  Our hotel tax rates are (or were, at one time) among the highest in the country.  This is from 2014, but you get the point--as the subtitle says "Who'd have thought Honolulu would be cheaper than Houston?":

Booking a Hotel? These Cities Have the Highest Hotel Taxes -- Consumer Reports

(And also to remind you and everyone . . . the Sports Authority (like a lot of issuers) had a pretty rough time at it for a good while with all the variable rate debt post financial crisis.)

No one is suggesting plopping an additional tax on visitors. The proposed Dome renovations have never been planned to be paid with hotel or rental car taxes, AFAIK.  The plan was for general obligation bonds backed by county taxpayers (with at least some of the funds expected to be generated by the renovated Dome).  It would serve to help grow the convention market by adding a huge additional facility (which at least OTC signed on to use).

Since you brought it up, let's also remind everyone that, in spite of the wailing and nashing of teeth we saw on this forum, there were no defaults and The Sports Authority is in good shape.

[mattyt36]

1 minute ago, Houston19514 said:

No one is suggesting plopping an additional tax on visitors. The proposed Dome renovations have never been planned to be paid with hotel or rental car taxes, AFAIK.  The plan was for general obligation bonds backed by county taxpayers (with at least some of the funds expected to be generated by the renovated Dome). 

1 hour ago, Houston19514 said:

(And just to remind you and everyone... none of the stadium financings raised taxes on local taxpayers (unless they rent cars or do a staycation in a local hotel.)

You have a really strange way of presenting things.

3 minutes ago, Houston19514 said:

Since you brought it up, let's also remind everyone that, in spite of the wailing and nashing of teeth we saw on this forum, there were no defaults and The Sports Authority is in good shape.

x2

There was indeed plenty of wailing and gnashing going on, even at the County and the Sports Authority, which in the end helped keep them from defaulting.  It's not like it was a foregone conclusion.

[Houston19514]

1 minute ago, mattyt36 said:

You have a really strange way of presenting things.

It should have been abundantly clear the stadium financings I was referring to were the ones you had listed in the post to which I was responding (NRG Stadium, Minute Maid Park, Toyota Center), not any proposals to finance a renovation of the Dome.

5 minutes ago, mattyt36 said:

x2

There was indeed plenty of wailing and gnashing going on, even at the County and the Sports Authority, which in the end helped keep them from defaulting.  It's not like it was a foregone conclusion.

Sure, but it indeed was the conclusion and it was "concluded" quite some time ago, so one wonders why we are talking about it

[mattyt36]

10 minutes ago, Houston19514 said:

It should have been abundantly clear the stadium financings I was referring to were the ones you had listed in the post to which I was responding (NRG Stadium, Minute Maid Park, Toyota Center), not any proposals to finance a renovation of the Dome.

Yet, we were talking about the Dome.

10 minutes ago, Houston19514 said:

Sure, but it indeed was the conclusion and it was "concluded" quite some time ago, so one wonders why we are talking about it

The referendum was contemporaneous.

Look, you may have way more faith in the electorate than I do.  My best guess says no more than 25% know what the County Judge does, nevertheless the nuances of public finance and how revenue bonds get paid back.

(And may I be the one to point out you're still talking about while in quite the tizzy?)

[Houston19514]

10 minutes ago, mattyt36 said:

Yet, we were talking about the Dome.

The referendum was contemporaneous.

Look, you may have way more faith in the electorate than I do.  My best guess says no more than 25% know what the County Judge does, nevertheless the nuances of public finance and how revenue bonds get paid back.

(And may I be the one to point out you're still talking about while in quite the tizzy?)

Your hobby seems to be creating conflict where there is none.  Enjoy yourself.

[X.R.]

I was gonna chime in earlier but didn't want to go too far down the astrodome path but we're talking about so *shrugs*. I have heard from friends who know people that the cost of tearing it down is something the county/city doesn't want to bear, and they also don't want to be the ones to make the choice to tear it down. They've heard the choice to tear it down and put something in its space has to be tied to something important to the city. 

The sentiment of developers and very interested parties they've heard about who have approached the county/city is that it needs to come down. One friend in particular mentioned that none of the proposed developments they've heard about includes the Astrodome staying in tact. But, as mentioned by @Brooklyn173it has a historic designation so it will take approval by the state to tear it down. 

Obviously the above is just what I've been told by others, but I'm operating under the assumption that in the next year or two we'll hear about something crazy that may take its place. 

[Houston19514]

18 minutes ago, X.R. said:

I was gonna chime in earlier but didn't want to go too far down the astrodome path but we're talking about so *shrugs*. I have heard from friends who know people that the cost of tearing it down is something the county/city doesn't want to bear, and they also don't want to be the ones to make the choice to tear it down. They've heard the choice to tear it down and put something in its space has to be tied to something important to the city. 

The sentiment of developers and very interested parties they've heard about who have approached the county/city is that it needs to come down. One friend in particular mentioned that none of the proposed developments they've heard about includes the Astrodome staying in tact. But, as mentioned by @Brooklyn173it has a historic designation so it will take approval by the state to tear it down. 

Obviously the above is just what I've been told by others, but I'm operating under the assumption that in the next year or two we'll hear about something crazy that may take its place. 

Interesting... any inkling of what kind of developments we would be talking about?  It's hard to imagine what could go there in place of the Dome that couldn't also be accomplished by renovating/reimagining the Dome.

Just a few sorta random thoughts/reactions.

1. To be clear, It's all county. The city has nothing to do with it. (I can imagine the Mayors of Houston have been very happy not to have to make this decision (or avoid this decision).

2. The former county judge openly said that he did not want to be known as the man on whose watch the Astrodome was torn down. At least he made several good faith attempts to do something (poorly-executed though they may have been.) If County leadership is still afraid to make the demolition decision, that rather emphasizes my initial post on this topic.  We need leadership. Not officeholders cowering under their desk, afraid to make a decision.

3. It bears repeating that nothing, either a Dome renovation or or Dome demolition/replacement with some new development, will work without the full support of the Rodeo and the Texans. I presume these rumored proposals are coming from either the Texans or the Rodeo or (hopefully) both.

4. One would think everyone involved would want something done in time for the World Cup.  Perhaps it's already too late for that . . .

Edited December 9, 2022 by Houston19514

[mattyt36]

1 hour ago, Houston19514 said:

Your hobby seems to be creating conflict where there is none.  Enjoy yourself.

C'mon, buddy, if anything all of my observations point to the fact that we're probably pretty similar, with the likely exception of politics and that you seem a pretty black-and-white kind of guy (with all the attendant traits).  A little more "type A," if you will (similar to our buddy editor)!!!

In fact, I believe you at one time even intimated to me as much!  Regardless, I shall always love your passion and high standards!

Germane to this topic, how about we move the Dome to the Theater District or downtown where it should've been in the first place?!  That's "man on the moon" kind of thinking right there!

Edited December 9, 2022 by mattyt36

[BEES?!]

OMG

Every time I see this thread bumped, I get super hyped that a new rendering got dropped or they suddenly announced that they’re saving Tranquility Park or something cool like that.

but nope, it’s just another thread that’s turned into a brawl about the Astrodome…again 😭y’all are kiiiillling me.

[Ross]

5 minutes ago, BEES?! said:

OMG

Every time I see this thread bumped, I get super hyped that a new rendering got dropped or they suddenly announced that they’re saving Tranquility Park or something cool like that.

but nope, it’s just another thread that’s turned into a brawl about the Astrodome…again 😭y’all are kiiiillling me.

Great! The conspiracy is working!😂

[arche_757]

Methinks these “developers” are probably either friends with the McNair’s or on the HLS&R board…. Would seem about right, since both of those parties want more parking for the 11 Sunday’s the Texans use the parking, and 2 weeks of early spring the Rodeo uses the facilities.

best use of a stadium is as a stadium!  Renovate it and lease it to HISD for cents on a dollar, or use it for Olympic sports as a part of TMC integrating sports medicine and training facilities.

Edited December 16, 2022 by arche_757

[Ross]

1 hour ago, arche_757 said:

Methinks these “developers” are probably either friends with the McNair’s or on the HLS&R board…. Would seem about right, since both of those parties want more parking for the 11 Sunday’s the Texans use the parking, and 2 weeks of early spring the Rodeo uses the facilities.

best use of a stadium is as a stadium!  Renovate it and lease it to HISD for cents on a dollar, or use it for Olympic sports as a part of TMC integrating sports medicine and training facilities.

HISD has enough stadiums already. No need for another one.

All of the Olympic sports have training centers in various places now.

[arche_757]

That’s true.  So we should abandon everything and stop dreaming for a potential replacement use for the astrodome then.  You’ve solved it!  Bravo.

[editor]

4 hours ago, Ross said:

HISD has enough stadiums already. No need for another one.

All of the Olympic sports have training centers in various places now.

Doesn't have to be HISD.  Could be for any sport. 

There are so many different college and professional bowls and tournaments around the country that other cities are building new stadia to draw them in.

It would also be nice to have a proper concert venue in Houston.  There was an article in the Chronicle a few months ago about why all the big concerts go to Dallas, San Antonio, and even Austin while skipping Houston.  One of the reasons is that there aren't enough big venues. 

One concert, or basketball game, or commencement, or something else at Toyota Center, and that's it.  No other big event can happen in Houston.  The fact that they resort to holding concerts at Minute Maid Park shows that there is a need for another large capacity stadium.   When major brand-name acts have to play in The Woodlands and Sugar Land that should tell you something.

[Ross]

1 hour ago, editor said:

Doesn't have to be HISD.  Could be for any sport. 

There are so many different college and professional bowls and tournaments around the country that other cities are building new stadia to draw them in.

It would also be nice to have a proper concert venue in Houston.  There was an article in the Chronicle a few months ago about why all the big concerts go to Dallas, San Antonio, and even Austin while skipping Houston.  One of the reasons is that there aren't enough big venues. 

One concert, or basketball game, or commencement, or something else at Toyota Center, and that's it.  No other big event can happen in Houston.  The fact that they resort to holding concerts at Minute Maid Park shows that there is a need for another large capacity stadium.   When major brand-name acts have to play in The Woodlands and Sugar Land that should tell you something.

Is NRG not available for concerts? The parking lot was the site of the ill fated Astroworld concerts with Travis Scott. I recall there were several Monsters of Rock concerts at Rice Stadium. Here's one in 1988 https://scholarship.rice.edu/handle/1911/71247. Rice Stadium's capacity has been reduced from those days, but it still holds over 40,000 people.

I think this is the article you referred to in the Chronicle https://www.houstonchronicle.com/lifestyle/article/bands-concert-skipping-Houston-Austin-Dallas-17078180.php It doesn't really say much about the venues, unfortunately. I looked up the Kraftwerk tour in Austin, and it played at the Moody Theater, which seats 2750.

Would the Rodeo be OK with the Dome becoming a music venue? Or the Texans? If either of those organizations can veto changes to the Dome, nothing is going to happen.

The Dome was an awful venue for concerts. We saw the Rodeo concerts there 5 or 6 times, and the acoustics were just terrible.

The best concert I saw in Houston was Cheap Trick at the Music Hall, which no longer exists, having been replaced by the Hobby Center. I saw Roger Whittaker at the Coliseum, which was also decent, although the seats were just folding chairs.  It too was replaced by the Hobby Center. The Neville Brothers at what is now Bayou Music Center was a great concert as well, especially since it was a private show paid for by my employer at the time.

[editor]

1 hour ago, Ross said:

Is NRG not available for concerts?

It is.  So, great — there are two possible locations for large events.  In the nation's fourth largest city.  And both of those are home to sports teams, and one is locked up for a month plus because of the rodeo.

It's like saying, "Whaddaya mean I-10 isn't wide enough? It has TWO lanes now!"

[Houston19514]

18 minutes ago, editor said:

It is.  So, great — there are two possible locations for large events.  In the nation's fourth largest city.  And both of those are home to sports teams, and one is locked up for a month plus because of the rodeo.

It's like saying, "Whaddaya mean I-10 isn't wide enough? It has TWO lanes now!"

Plus Minute Maid, as previously mentioned.  How many 15,000 + venues do you imagine we "need"?

[Big E]

The fact of the matter is, nobody really needs this stadium as a stadium. Its why nobody is using it now. Houston has so many venues, it could successfully host the Olympics, and not have to construct many permanent new ones. 

Nobody can do anything else with the stadium, because the Rodeo and Texans would veto any business taking up their parking during their respective events, and no business could operate there year around because of the issues with those two groups.

The only thing that can, realistically be done with the stadium is to tear it down and pave it over with more parking, because that's literally all you can do with it.

Its one of the last traditional domes still standing. Why? All the other ones got torn down. Texas Stadium? Gone. Georgia Dome? Gone. Only the Superdome is still in use, and they are desperately trying to renovate it because its showing its age. This one should be gone, and, frankly, its an embarrassment that its still standing.

Edited December 17, 2022 by Big E

[editor]

2 hours ago, Big E said:

he fact of the matter is, nobody really needs this stadium as a stadium.

Except that Houston does need a stadium, as illustrated above.

 

2 hours ago, Big E said:

Nobody can do anything else with the stadium, because the Rodeo and Texans would veto any business taking up their parking during their respective events

Once again, supporting a car-focused society strangles progress.   Too bad the county-owned building isn't being used for the best interest of the public that the county is supposed to represent, instead of a small set of private millionaires.

2 hours ago, Big E said:

Its one of the last traditional domes still standing. Why? All the other ones got torn down

Tearing something down just because it's old is so... Houston.

Funny how the 15 largest stadia in America are all older than the Astrodome, yet they still keep chugging along, and aren't left to rot and embarrass the city.  Just because it's a dome doesn't make it any more special or fragile than other stadia.  Domes get replaced and renovated all the time.  Even Minute Maid Park has had its roof replaced.

 

 

[editor]

12 hours ago, Houston19514 said:

Plus Minute Maid, as previously mentioned.  How many 15,000 + venues do you imagine we "need"?

As noted above, more than we currently have. 

I'm not sure where the 15,000 benchmark came from.  That's a pretty small arena.  The point is that Houston needs another large venue.  15,000 literally doesn't rank.  The list of the 259 largest stadia in the nation ends at 18,000. 

Even high school facilities are up to 40,000 these days.

[Houston19514]

3 hours ago, editor said:

As noted above, more than we currently have. 

I'm not sure where the 15,000 benchmark came from.  That's a pretty small arena.  The point is that Houston needs another large venue.  15,000 literally doesn't rank.  The list of the 259 largest stadia in the nation ends at 18,000. 

Even high school facilities are up to 40,000 these days.

You have provided no evidence that we need another large stadium/concert venue. What is the basis for this claim?  (Other than your default stance that whatever Houston has or does is not adequate; one wonders why you would return to a city you so clearly despise.)

Edited December 17, 2022 by Houston19514

[Ross]

8 hours ago, editor said:

As noted above, more than we currently have. 

I'm not sure where the 15,000 benchmark came from.  That's a pretty small arena.  The point is that Houston needs another large venue.  15,000 literally doesn't rank.  The list of the 259 largest stadia in the nation ends at 18,000. 

Even high school facilities are up to 40,000 these days.

The largest High School stadiums are around 20,000 seats. 

The 15 largest stadiums in the US are all college football stadiums. In Houston, there's Rice Stadium, TDECU Stadium at UH, the TSU stadium, and whatever HBU is using. No reason they couldn't be venues, since colleges and universities will sell their souls for more funds.

I agree the County should be able to do as they please with the Dome, but the contracts signed with the Rodeo and the Texans are biased against the County. It doesn't help that the Rodeo is run by the biggest movers and shakers in the City, and they aren't going to give up their party life for any reason.

[editor]

On 12/17/2022 at 3:40 PM, Ross said:

The largest High School stadiums are around 20,000 seats. 

Wikipedia disagrees  

Ladd-Peebles Stadium in Mobile, Alabama: 40,000

Joe Albi Stadium in Spokane, Washington: 28,646

Cranston Bowl in Montgomery, Alabama: 24,600

BREC Memorial Stadium in Baton Rouge: 21,500

 

 

[Reefmonkey]

On 12/17/2022 at 4:13 AM, Big E said:

The fact of the matter is, nobody really needs this stadium as a stadium. Its why nobody is using it now. Houston has so many venues, it could successfully host the Olympics, and not have to construct many permanent new ones. 

Nobody can do anything else with the stadium, because the Rodeo and Texans would veto any business taking up their parking during their respective events, and no business could operate there year around because of the issues with those two groups.

The only thing that can, realistically be done with the stadium is to tear it down and pave it over with more parking, because that's literally all you can do with it.

Its one of the last traditional domes still standing. Why? All the other ones got torn down. Texas Stadium? Gone. Georgia Dome? Gone. Only the Superdome is still in use, and they are desperately trying to renovate it because its showing its age. This one should be gone, and, frankly, its an embarrassment that its still standing.

I agree we don't need this stadium as a stadium, and that the only realistic thing to do with it is tear it down, but I disagree with paving it over for more parking. From what I've read, a large chunk of the cost of the demolition would be backfilling the bowl-shaped depression. So why do that? Why not leave it there, use it as much-needed stormwater retention pond, plant some habitat around it, and make it the central focus of the greenspace that has already been proposed?