Downtown Needs To Market Itself

[mollusk]

I also want to step out on any of the major corridors (Main, Texas, Travis, Dallas, Fannin, Walker,Smith, McKinney Louisiana, etc) and pick up some hot dogs or burgers or something. We have awesome good downtown but I'm thinking of cheap possibly get you sick greasy street vendor food. But for that I guess the tunnel crowd would have to feel that it's safe to come out.

 

We can't have the street vendors downtown because they are regulated away by a combination of Health Department rules and the prohibition of propane tanks in downtown - I've heard that last one is because someone or another is scared witless that The Terrorists might use a hot dog cart as a bomb or some such nonsense.  Even the few food trucks that are allowed to come in have to run on electricity, their much less secure gasoline tanks notwithstanding.

[arche_757]

I think the aquarium is fine where it is.  Development is happening now that all of what everyone here is posting will happen in the next 5-10 years regardless.

[HoustonIsHome]

Hmm...what if the Downtown Aquarium was moved to the large parking lot adjacent to Discovery Green? That would provide an anchor to the area and make it even more of a destination.

That lot is slight smaller than the lot the aquarium is right now and the major gripe with ours is how small it is. The entire area of its including the outside areas with rides is 6 acres. The one in Atlanta is 13 acres of building space only.

How about the 4 blocks between toyota and greenstreet. Maybe expand and incorporate root square into it? That would greatly enhance the entertainment aspects of the convention district.

What are the food options in that area? I Ann begining to think that above ground quick did is lacking in downtown. I'd the McDonald's on Dallas behind the HPD building still open? I know popeyes on Travis closed, there is jasons deli... but I'm drawing blanks on visible fast food in the parking district. We used to go to chik fil a inside the shops at Houston center but that's not really visible either. Do the court house workers eat underground too? I remember coming from one of the court house buildings with a friend from out of town and we asked a city worker what was near and she couldn't really remember anything not in the Tunnels

[HoustonIsHome]

We can't have the street vendors downtown because they are regulated away by a combination of Health Department rules and the prohibition of propane tanks in downtown - I've heard that last one is because someone or another is scared witless that The Terrorists might use a hot dog cart as a bomb or some such nonsense. Even the few food trucks that are allowed to come in have to run on electricity, their much less secure gasoline tanks notwithstanding.

That explains it. I've been wondering why anyone hasn't tried making a killing selling did around downtown.

So is that niko nikos at market square cooking with electricity? I'm always hungry when I go by that thing but I never stopped there.

Such a waste. Have you seen the flood of students and teachers from UHD riding the trains at lunch time heading to the tunnels for food. I hated eating down there fur lunch. Just too crowded. Chipotle on main was a mess at lunch too.

Downtown has so much potential

[mollusk]

Since the Market Square Niko Niko's is in a permanent building it gets to use piped in gas.    

[htownproud]

I don't understand people that live in downtown and don't realize that sun dance doesn't show normal movies. Really? And grass on top of roofs. really? Folks in Des Moine did that and everyone thought it was a wasted subsidy. Just like here. I don't want to encourage spending on useless things like that. And someone wants to walk to a Walmart, target, h&m, and other suburban stores in the middle of downtown. Really? Do you know what a pain it is to get to those places in urban cities like Chicago and NYC? And you want to step out of your place down town and walk to one? You clearly don't appreciate how amazing it is to have a store like Phonenica within walking distance.

[lockmat]

Downtown needs awesome hole on the wall places and yummy no name corner store delis. Maybe it does already?

[cloud713]

I don't understand people that live in downtown and don't realize that sun dance doesn't show normal movies. Really? And grass on top of roofs. really? Folks in Des Moine did that and everyone thought it was a wasted subsidy. Just like here. I don't want to encourage spending on useless things like that. And someone wants to walk to a Walmart, target, h&m, and other suburban stores in the middle of downtown. Really? Do you know what a pain it is to get to those places in urban cities like Chicago and NYC? And you want to step out of your place down town and walk to one? You clearly don't appreciate how amazing it is to have a store like Phonenica within walking distance.

really..? instead of criticizing why dont you come up with some better ideas. 

is this the "wasted subsidy" you speak of?

really? they put grass on top of a roof and called it a day. it doesnt even look like there is access to the roof. i can see why Idahoans would consider it wasted subsidies.. sure it reduces 75% of the storm water run off, and cools the building down, but they arent getting anything else out of it.. the space isnt being utilized for the public, so they see no benefit.

what i was proposing goes way beyond a "grass roof". im talking rooftop gardens for people to relax and enjoy nature, without ever leaving the urban environment; rooftop parks to stretch your legs (or your dogs); and rooftop entertainment facilities like TopGolf or putt putt, sports complexes, outdoor bars and patios, ect.

[mollusk]

Downtown needs awesome hole on the wall places and yummy no name corner store delis. Maybe it does already?

 

Downtown has some awesome hole in the wall places...yummy no name delis, not so much (I wish).

 

Re the "wasted subsidy" - I'm reminded of Oscar Wilde's definition of a cynic as someone who knows the price of everything and the value of nothing. 

[HoustonMidtown]

This isn't strictly for downtown....

 

 

 

[lockmat]

Downtown has some awesome hole in the wall places...yummy no name delis, not so much (I wish.

It needs more. Usually good hole in the wall places outnumber chain or higher end places in a neighborhood. Okay, i just totally made that up but i think it could be true.

[Subdude]

We can't have the street vendors downtown because they are regulated away by a combination of Health Department rules and the prohibition of propane tanks in downtown - I've heard that last one is because someone or another is scared witless that The Terrorists might use a hot dog cart as a bomb or some such nonsense.  Even the few food trucks that are allowed to come in have to run on electricity, their much less secure gasoline tanks notwithstanding.

 

If that is true it is truly bizarre.  Propane tanks are banned?  Good grief.  Whoever came up with that should be slapped with wet towels until they realize that few things would as quickly and painlessly contribute to downtown vitality than a whole mess of food trucks and street vendors.  The cliche for that is "low-hanging fruit".  

 

 

I'm of two minds about "green roofs".  Conceptually they are great.  Certainly they seem to be a bit of a fad right now, judging by the number of renderings with rooftop gardens.  On the other hand I think it is enormously expensive to retrofit existing buildings to carry the load and meet other structural requirements, so I wouldn't ever expect too much on that front.  On top of everything else, there will always be someone arguing against it because letting people onto rooftops encourages suicide or whatnot.

 

 

[mollusk]

If that is true it is truly bizarre.  Propane tanks are banned?  Good grief.  

 

In the immortal words of Lili von Shtüpp, "it's twue, it's twue!"  

 

http://blogs.houstonpress.com/eating/2012/10/video_council_member_andrew_bu.php

[lockmat]

Ok, trying to keep my argument on life support.

With Houston growing at the pace it is, different areas of the city are competing for these new residents. Wouldn't a few billboards around town help downtown's chances?

[arche_757]

^yep.  That's what I said earlier.  And I think that's all I would do at this point.

[lockmat]

You could market it as, "Houston's only true urban high rise living experience."

[arche_757]

^well... that would be a stretch.  There are high rises all over town.  And from an amenities standpoint Uptown is light years ahead of Downtown.  Sure you can't walk as easily, but there are grocery stores, shops, great restaurants and it is only getting denser.

 

I would say "Downtown = City Living" or "Downtown where you can live inside history" something like that.

 

Or:  "Central Business.  Heart of the City"

[lockmat]

Key words for me are "true" and "urban." The galleria is the woodlands on steroids. I would say midtown is truly urban but there aren't any high rises.

[KinkaidAlum]

"If you needed this billboard to tell you about downtown, then downtown is likely not for you."

 

Downtown residential is doing quite well, especially the rental market. Plenty of people seem to know about downtown and the new bars and restaurants all seem to be doing quite well. 

[lockmat]

"If you needed this billboard to tell you about downtown, then downtown is likely not for you."

 

Downtown residential is doing quite well, especially the rental market. Plenty of people seem to know about downtown and the new bars and restaurants all seem to be doing quite well. 

 

I only drive I45 north and I10 west and there are plenty of billboards for the Woodlands area and Spring Branch. I'm not real sure how this is any different.

 

By Houston standards downtown is on fire. Compared to the rest of the world, I would argue it's pretty sad, at least in terms of retail and restaurants.

[HoustonIsHome]

"If you needed this billboard to tell you about downtown, then downtown is likely not for you."

Downtown residential is doing quite well, especially the rental market. Plenty of people seem to know about downtown and the new bars and restaurants all seem to be doing quite well.

Have you ever considered that the downtown market is going well because units have been coming online at a snails pace. Maybe 300units every two or three years.

When in the history of downtown have we ever gotten 5000 units in a two- three year span

With that type of inventory coming online in a few years wouldn't it be prudent to advertise? Austin furiously did for theirs and now they have the largest downtown in terms of population while being the smallest of the big four. Austin had constantly exciting stuff to advertise though. Ours is not constantly entertaining.

Keep in mind the numbers again. Downtown currently has only ~2400 units. We are not just adding a PP, we are not just converting a Rice Hotel, we are adding 5000 units of residential awesomeness.

[lockmat]

Have you ever considered that the downtown market is going well because units have been coming online at a snails pace. Maybe 300units every two or three years.

When in the history of downtown have we ever gotten 5000 units in a two- three year span

With that type of inventory coming online in a few years wouldn't it be prudent to advertise? Austin furiously did for theirs and now they have the largest downtown in terms of population while being the smallest of the big four. Austin had constantly exciting stuff to advertise though. Ours is not constantly entertaining.

Keep in mind the numbers again. Downtown currently has only ~2400 units. We are not just adding a PP, we are not just converting a Rice Hotel, we are adding 5000 units of residential awesomeness.

How did Austin advertise downtown?

[Sellanious Caesar]

About Downtown Houston http://www.houstontomorrow.org/livability/story/the-lure-of-downtown-houston/

Buffalo Bayou, and other repurposed and beautified green space will take Houston the extra mile IMO.

[KinkaidAlum]

Again, if anyone needs a billboard to tell them about downtown, then they aren't ever going to live there. Period.

 

I pass by countless billboards touting Spring Ranch Lakes Meadow Lawn Valley Rivers Estates, etc... and I don't give them a second thought because I have ZERO interest in living in a master planned community. The people drawn to these places aren't going to suddenly think of moving downtown because of a billboard on a Freeway. 

 

Downtown isn't for everyone. However, I can damn well guarantee you that the people who might move downtown are already aware of downtown. It's that simple.

 

Now, if you think downtown Houston should be as hip and cool as downtown Austin, then maybe a pr campaign will be needed.

 

 

 

[Howard Huge]

Again, if anyone needs a billboard to tell them about downtown, then they aren't ever going to live there. Period.

I pass by countless billboards touting Spring Ranch Lakes Meadow Lawn Valley Rivers Estates, etc... and I don't give them a second thought because I have ZERO interest in living in a master planned community. The people drawn to these places aren't going to suddenly think of moving downtown because of a billboard on a Freeway.

Downtown isn't for everyone. However, I can damn well guarantee you that the people who might move downtown are already aware of downtown. It's that simple.

Now, if you think downtown Houston should be as hip and cool as downtown Austin, then maybe a pr campaign will be needed.

I agree, a guy who works for Big Oil in the energy corridor and wants to live as close as possible to work, who sees a billboard on I-10 that says "come live downtown, its awesome!", is not going to give two.

However, a TELEVISION campaign touting how bad ass the NEW downtown is, showing off the trains, Disco Green, all the new skyscrapers, all the new resi high rises, and hell even throwing in Midtown (I firmly believe Downtown/Midtown should be considered ONE entity, it creates a stronger synergy, and they should be marketed together), and the glitz and glamour of the new Greenstreet/Allessandra, I wouldnt see anything wrong with that. As long as it wasnt begging people to "discover" downtown, or to "come live downtown", but if it was just SHOWING people what exists here and shows people the options of this lifestyle, I think it would be awesome, especially after downtown has been transformed before the super bowl.

These ads should run at Super Bowl time locally too, (not during the game) to show all of our visitors all downtown has to offer, you never know, it may bring some curious people into the CBD

[livincinco]

I do question whether a marketing campaign is right for downtown, but I would also suggest that the timing is very much wrong right now. The vast majority of the residential units are currently under construction and are scheduled to come available over the next couple of years. Doing a "come live downtown" campaign now isn't going to help very much because there really aren't a lot of places to live at the moment.

Additionally, you'd expect that the different builders are going to market their properties when they are complete, so I'd expect that there's going to be a significant amount of advertising dollars promoting downtown properties by late next year regardless of whether downtown does anything on its own.

[lockmat]

Ok I agree maybe a campaign right now is not the best time.

But a campaign is not an attempt to instantly change people's minds. I don't think before I went to Europe after graduating college that I wanted to live in an urban environment. I loved downtown and all the tall buildings, but living there? I don't think it crossed my mind. After Europe, I fell in love urbanism.

People have a way of thinking. Can it be changed easily? No. But can it? Yes. BUT, it takes time. A campaign would be an EDUCATION/INFORMATIVE process. A way to slowly inform people and get them to try it. It wouldn't be like a tv commercial or internet ad trying to get you to make an impulse decision. But once you start to inform people of all the benefits, some may start to slowly change their minds. And the kids who grow up passing them would be indoctrinated too

That's what Spring Branch is doing. They're making you hate your commute more and giving you an alternative to such a long commute. Pass it up going 20 mph everyday and it might get you to take a look.

Look at the poll we did about where you grew up, where you are now and where you want to be. A lot of people who want to move to an urban area grew up in the suburbs. Inner loopers don't tend to reproduce. So the city is not growing by default from them. The growth is coming from the suburbs. We just need to push and accelerate that process.

[livincinco]

Ok I agree maybe a campaign right now is not the best time.

But a campaign is not an attempt to instantly change people's minds. I don't think before I went to Europe after graduating college that I wanted to live in an urban environment. I loved downtown and all the tall buildings, but living there? I don't think it crossed my mind. After Europe, I fell in love urbanism.

People have a way of thinking. Can it be changed easily? No. But can it? Yes. BUT, it takes time. A campaign would be an EDUCATION/INFORMATIVE process. A way to slowly inform people and get them to try it. It wouldn't be like a tv commercial or internet ad trying to get you to make an impulse decision. But once you start to inform people of all the benefits, some may start to slowly change their minds. And the kids who grow up passing them would be indoctrinated too

That's what Spring Branch is doing. They're making you hate your commute more and giving you an alternative to such a long commute. Pass it up going 20 mph everyday and it might get you to take a look.

Look at the poll we did about where you grew up, where you are now and where you want to be. A lot of people who want to move to an urban area grew up in the suburbs. Inner loopers don't tend to reproduce. So the city is not growing by default from them. The growth is coming from the suburbs. We just need to push and accelerate that process.

 

I'm not arguing with you that campaigns like the one that Spring Branch is doing aren't effective.  It's more of a question whether they're necessary.  General indication is that housing demand outweighs supply in the downtown area even with the significant amount of supply in the pipeline. 

 

Regarding promoting urbanization, I'm not sure I agree that the shift is coming from the suburbs or that it's even important to promote movement from the suburbs.  It's not a zero sum game.  The Houston area gained 138,000 people last year.  We're talking about downtown adding housing capacity for maybe 5,000 people in the current state.  The Houston metro is projected to gain approx. 2 - 2.5 million people over the next 15 years.  Even if the area inside the loop stays at approx. 8% of the general population, and I do expect it will increase slightly, that means that at least an additional 150,000 - 200,000 people move inside the loop.  All downtown has to do is attract a percentage of the new residents that are already predisposed to an urban environment to be successful.

[lockmat]

I'm not arguing with you that campaigns like the one that Spring Branch is doing aren't effective. It's more of a question whether they're necessary. General indication is that housing demand outweighs supply in the downtown area even with the significant amount of supply in the pipeline.

Regarding promoting urbanization, I'm not sure I agree that the shift is coming from the suburbs or that it's even important to promote movement from the suburbs. It's not a zero sum game. The Houston area gained 138,000 people last year. We're talking about downtown adding housing capacity for maybe 5,000 people in the current state. The Houston metro is projected to gain approx. 2 - 2.5 million people over the next 15 years. Even if the area inside the loop stays at approx. 8% of the general population, and I do expect it will increase slightly, that means that at least an additional 150,000 - 200,000 people move inside the loop. All downtown has to do is attract a percentage of the new residents that are already predisposed to an urban environment to be successful.

That's fair.

But is the demand for downtown really there? At the price prior to the incentives, no. Occupancy rates were already near 100% and nobody was building. Is demand there at the incentive price point? Yes. To me, that's kind of mysterious. Near 100% occupancy and no builds? Why not?

I just think most people are ignorant of downtown and it's benefits. There are those brainwashed by its negatives and those not yet brainwashed or just ignorant. Those are the people you try to win over.

Lots of people drive by downtown and even the inner loop but have no clue what it has to offer. Some are potential customers. Those people should be informed and allowed the opportunity to be drawn in and experience it. That's why they have fully furnished model homes right? To lure people in. They need to lure people in so they can experience it other than parking and walking to the arena/ballpark.

There's a very good chance I'm wrong because I'm not a marketing expert. Fun discussion though.

[livincinco]

That's fair.

But is the demand for downtown really there? At the price prior to the incentives, no. Occupancy rates were already near 100% and nobody was building. Is demand there at the incentive price point? Yes. To me, that's kind of mysterious. Near 100% occupancy and no builds? Why not?

I just think most people are ignorant of downtown and it's benefits. There are those brainwashed by its negatives and those not yet brainwashed or just ignorant. Those are the people you try to win over.

Lots of people drive by downtown and even the inner loop but have no clue what it has to offer. Some are potential customers. Those people should be informed and allowed the opportunity to be drawn in and experience it. That's why they have fully furnished model homes right? To lure people in. They need to lure people in so they can experience it other than parking and walking to the arena/ballpark.

There's a very good chance I'm wrong because I'm not a marketing expert. Fun discussion though.

 

Also a fair point.  I'm a big fan of the residential incentives.  They've been effective and I think that the cost will end up paying off long term, I'm not strongly opposed to an ad campaign, it's just that I always assume scarce dollars in these kind of discussions.  In my opinion, the residential incentives should continue to get a lot of money and additional money should be devoted towards continued development of parks, which have had great ROI in the downtown area, and in enhancing "livability" by improving sidewalks, etc.  I just see marketing expense as money that could have been devoted to those kind of things that, in my opinion, provide a better ROI. 

 

Your point about model homes is valid, but also recognize that's industry cost, not city cost.  I would expect that all the residential development is going to create advertising which publicizes "downtown living" and a lot of news coverage as well.  I'd much rather see the city contribute by continuing to increase the number of events downtown and generating publicity from those things.  That potentially achieves the same goal and enhances the "livability" of downtown as well.