What Is Holding Downtown Down

[TowerSpotter]

The Texaco building renovations are going to be linked to the tunnels so 609 Main can get ifs connection is my understanding.

 

I mean the residential tower at Market Square Park.

[Texasota]

I don't believe the Hines residential tower will be tunnel- connected, no.

[kylejack]

Well yes there is, such as the lack of pedestrian life and the need for more retail.

 

If it doesn't have pedestrians, why does it need retail? Seems like these so-called problems cancel out.

[kylejack]

the topic is downtown the neighborhood. not Houston the city. I don't care about rail, pedestrian utopias, bayou parks or trails or any other gimmick. If tourists want those amenities in downtown, that's fine but let them pay for them, don't increase my taxes. I just want a grocery store like every other neighborhood in this city. A dry cleaners that is open 7 days a week. A bank ATM I can access on the weekends.( No not a private ATM like inside a Franks pizza). Just the basics. that's what downtown needs.

 

If a major grocery store came to downtown it would likely receive tax investments, just like Georgia's and Phoenicia did.

[kylejack]

Correct, correct and correct.

But....

with young professionals coming to our city by the THOUSANDS from other big cities, people who are used to things like being able to live, work and play without a car because of an extensive rail/transit system, dense urban environments, and who mostly want to remain living in a similar environment and not move out to the suburbs, my question is what about them? Will they want to STAY? They're certainly in for a culture shock when they get here, especially the ones who have been used to getting around without a car. So is our attitude toward them supposed to be "they can go ___ themselves, if they dont like it here they can go back to where they came from"?

Its not just about us native Houstonians who have been here all our lives or for a very long time.....

 

I am a young professional who lives, works, and plays without a car. I like Houston.

 

[TowerSpotter]

If it doesn't have pedestrians, why does it need retail? Seems like these so-called problems cancel out.

 

You are correct about that, at the time I didn't really think it through or had that in mind. Although in the near future retail will be needed considering the new residentials that are coming such as Hine's residential, Skyhouse, Ballpark Place, the midrise residential next to skyhouse, and the Texaco residential. (phase 2)

 

Edit: As in retail I mean grocery stores, restaurants or/and fast food chains, and maybe some shopping boutiques. 

Edited September 4, 2013 by TowerSpotter

[kylejack]

Sorry but it doesn't take hundreds of millions of dollars to create a world class bus system in Houston.

 

We "invested" in light rail? I wonder how that investment paid off for all the small business owners along main street, where are they now?

 

Tacos A Go Go, Double Trouble, Tinderbox, Bombay Pizza, etc? Plenty of businesses along the Main Street corridor.

 

[kylejack]

good point. what if i'm running with sciccors, trip, land on the scissors? my woman rushes me to the hospital but critical mass is blocking a street i need to pass. what am I supposed to do? Bleed out in the Volvo?

 

What would you do if a train was in the way? Bleed out in the Volvo?

[jt16]

Gravity

Amirite?

[Houston19514]

I really disagree with the notion that the tunnels robbed the streets of life or such nonsense, as you can argue that such the street level's activity disappeared when sprawl happened and all.

Like freeway removal advocates, the worst examples (like Cincinnati) involve poor implementation and maintenance.

Are there any apartment buildings linked to the tunnel systems?

Commerce Towers and the Four Seasons apartments are both linked to the tunnel system.

[kylejack]

Commerce Towers and the Four Seasons apartments are both linked to the tunnel system.

 

Kirby Lofts

[UtterlyUrban]

I am a downtown renter but might buy in a few years..... If there is highrise condos to buy. A friend suggested that Downtown was a rental market and residential properties will tend to be apartments not condos. What a highrise condo? Go to the galleria or med center. Downtown is apartments.

What are your thoughts on this? Will downtown tend to be apartments over the near term? Why're why not?

[jt16]

Commerce towers

[cloud713]

isnt One Park Place a condo tower? i know a lot of people own second homes there. will both of the new Market Square towers be apartments? Ritz Carlton was supposably looking around downtown for a site for a hotel/condo tower.

[UtterlyUrban]

OPP is apartments.

Commerce tower is condos but is selling a few and leasing many others (presumably because they can't sell them all).

Many (all???) of the other projects proposed or under construction are rental.

Just curious.

Edited April 6, 2014 by UtterlyUrban

[ClutchCity]

The only new condo tower I have heard about downtown is the 38 story phase 2 of the Texaco building renovation. However, that is quite a ways from starting so plans can change. Uptown seems to be the only place putting up condo towers right now.

[UtterlyUrban]

The only new condo tower I have heard about downtown is the 38 story phase 2 of the Texaco building renovation. However, that is quite a ways from starting so plans can change. Uptown seems to be the only place putting up condo towers right now.

I was told that this was going to be apartments, hopefully, you are correct.

Anyway, it's under construction now. I guess in 18 months or so, we will know the answer!

http://www.houstonarchitecture.com/haif/topic/28162-38-story-residential-highrise-downtown-old-texaco-building-renovation/page-12

[ArchFan]

Yeah, it seems odd to have so many high-rise residential projects underway, with almost all consisting of rental units.  The only exceptions I know of are the 2 in Uptown:  Astoria and Belfiore.

 

In particular, with all the apartment construction downtown, I'm surprised at what appears to be a total lack of condo construction.  The last proposed project I can remember was "The Shamrock", which was to be where Hines' 609 Main office building is going up.  

 

 

Edited April 6, 2014 by ArchFan

[ToryGattis]

An alternative to consider: midrise Rise Lofts at 2000 Bagby in Midtown, but on the very edge of downtown.  Condos for sale with unobstructed views in a very walkable part of Midtown.  

 

I'm not an expert, but I suspect the lack of condos downtown is probably somewhat related to the lack of unobstructed views because of all the tall buildings around.  When people buy into a high-rise, the view is a big part of what they're buying.  People want to be downtown for the location - proximity to job - and jobs can change quickly, so the market is much deeper for renting than owning.  There's also the corporate rental market.  

[H-Town Man]

The last proposed project I can remember was "The Shamrock", which was to be where Hines' 609 Main office building is going up.  

 

Don't mention that on here.

 

[KinkaidAlum]

Commerce Towers, Hermann Lofts, Bayou Lofts, Capital Lofts, and Keystone Lofts are all condos. I think there are a few more options to own rather than rent.

 

That said, I think the time would be right to market a smaller condo tower that is built out (not lofts). Something in the 15-20 story range with 4 units per floor. I'd place in Northern Midtown, near Dynamo Stadium, or near the bayous to take advantage of views.

[Sellanious Caesar]

Condos along Buffalo Bayou can have a lot of appeal. If done right, can become as desirable of a trend as it was in Miami and Chicago (Chicago River and Miami River condos surrounding the waterways).

The condo market will probably come back sometime but as of now it seems developers want to steer away from the condo market in this country.

Edited April 7, 2014 by Sellanious Caesar

[HoustonIsHome]

^ that would be nice especially since they are planing to silt the bayou and try to return it to a more natural form.

What about the area they are planing to divert the water to help mitigate food damage. That would be a nice area for condos. It would be a practically new development area kinda like the new developments that are occurring in san Antonio with the extention of the river walk

Edited April 7, 2014 by HoustonIsHome

[UtterlyUrban]

Commerce Towers, Hermann Lofts, Bayou Lofts, Capital Lofts, and Keystone Lofts are all condos. I think there are a few more options to own rather than rent.

That said, I think the time would be right to market a smaller condo tower that is built out (not lofts). Something in the 15-20 story range with 4 units per floor. I'd place in Northern Midtown, near Dynamo Stadium, or near the bayous to take advantage of views.

True. I was speaking of highrises (not "lofts"). Commerce tower is selling (but also leasing). My guess is that Commerce Tower is leasing because sales are not going as well as planned.

I would LOVE to see a new condo tower built in downtown. I hope you're speculation is correct!

[UtterlyUrban]

An alternative to consider: midrise Rise Lofts at 2000 Bagby in Midtown, but on the very edge of downtown. Condos for sale with unobstructed views in a very walkable part of Midtown.

I'm not an expert, but I suspect the lack of condos downtown is probably somewhat related to the lack of unobstructed views because of all the tall buildings around. When people buy into a high-rise, the view is a big part of what they're buying. People want to be downtown for the location - proximity to job - and jobs can change quickly, so the market is much deeper for renting than owning. There's also the corporate rental market.

Maybe. But cities like NYC and Chicago sell highrise units with obstructed views all the time.... It is the nature of urban living. ......

[ArchFan]

Commerce Towers, Hermann Lofts, Bayou Lofts, Capital Lofts, and Keystone Lofts are all condos. I think there are a few more options to own rather than rent.

 

That said, I think the time would be right to market a smaller condo tower that is built out (not lofts). Something in the 15-20 story range with 4 units per floor. I'd place in Northern Midtown, near Dynamo Stadium, or near the bayous to take advantage of views.

 

Construction of ultra-high-end high-rise condos seems to be pretty hot right now in NYC, driven to a large extent by wealthy foreigners.

 

My guess is that if we see more condos in downtown Houston, they will be mostly in new buildings, not repurposed older buildings.  Also, I think the loft style is passé.  I looked at Bayou Lofts when they were just starting to market them and liked the building in general, but didn't want to live in a condo in which the bedroom is essential open to everything else.  Not very practical for people who need a quiet room to sleep in.

 

I like the idea of condos built in tandem with the Buffalo/White-Oak Bayou diversion canals.  The devil is in the details, of course, but that could be very cool if done right.

Edited April 8, 2014 by ArchFan

[ToryGattis]

Maybe. But cities like NYC and Chicago sell highrise units with obstructed views all the time.... It is the nature of urban living. ......

 

Fair point, but think of it this way: a condo tower developer downtown is going to have to pay much more for the land (because it could be used for a Class A office tower) and have obstructed views, and have to compete with towers popping up all over inside the loop with much cheaper land and no obstructed views.  Construction costs are essentially the same.  They will be at a pretty big cost and amenity disadvantage unless the person really wants to be able to walk out their door around downtown - and I'm guessing that's just not a large enough market of people right now.  Or, more accurately, there is a group of people that want that, but they're rootless mobile single 20-somethings that are more renters than owners.  

 

But maybe the downtown amenities are close to a tipping point for older, more mature buyers?

[Subdude]

I've wondered myself about the preponderance of rental development - not just downtown but in much of the city.  I think one factor is that banks are still quite conservative on residential lending, and especially so with condos.  Until residential / condo financing loosens up developers are simply going to see rental properties as an easier bet to make.  

 

[UtterlyUrban]

I've wondered myself about the preponderance of rental development - not just downtown but in much of the city. I think one factor is that banks are still quite conservative on residential lending, and especially so with condos. Until residential / condo financing loosens up developers are simply going to see rental properties as an easier bet to make.

To me, unless property ownership begins to materialize in Downtown (the lofts noted above are not enough) it will be hard to sustain its recovery. Housing trends come and go as do renters. Owners have a stake in the ground and that stake helps to create a neighborhood.

Does the $15k per unit incentive from the city (paid over 15 years) have an influence here? Is it somehow better for the developer to build apartments and hold them instead of building condos and sell them? How does that $15k over 15 years work if a developer builds condos and sells them all in 2 years?

[kylejack]

I am a downtown renter but might buy in a few years..... If there is highrise condos to buy. A friend suggested that Downtown was a rental market and residential properties will tend to be apartments not condos. What a highrise condo? Go to the galleria or med center. Downtown is apartments.

What are your thoughts on this? Will downtown tend to be apartments over the near term? Why're why not?

 

Condos:

Bayou Lofts

Franklin Lofts

St. Germain

Capitol Lofts

Commerce Tower

Hermann Lofts

Keystone Lofts

CityView Lofts

 

Apartments:

Post Rice Lofts

Houston House

One Park Place

Lots more apartments being built, though. Finger's, etc.