What Is Holding Downtown Down

[Slick Vik]

Bussing across is the least efficient method, so no wonder the one you were on was packed. Most people take the ferry. Buses on the Asia side are always packed, but that's not a transit issue, it's a development issue.

As for rail, that connection opens in October.

That will be great. The ferry has beautiful views but the subway tunnel will save a lot of time. Also it will open up the uskudar neighborhood to visitors in an easier fashion with the new metro station there. And the suburban lines will now be metro. The prediction is 25% of the population will ride each day when it's all done.

[editor]

That will be great. The ferry has beautiful views but the subway tunnel will save a lot of time. Also it will open up the uskudar neighborhood to visitors in an easier fashion with the new metro station there. And the suburban lines will now be metro. The prediction is 25% of the population will ride each day when it's all done.

 

Fantastic.  Now let's talk about downtown Houston.

[Slick Vik]

Back to topic, I think the thing that will help downtown is a bigger residential population. And I think use of shade at sidewalk level will help pedestrian life in a subtle way. I don't think there are any plans for more green space but that would be good as well. If they decide to close the pierce elevated perhaps it could be another high line like in New York. That's an alternative to tearing it down altogether. A lot of possibilities. And the signing of Dwight Howard will have a huge impact starting in November when the season starts.

[H-Town Man]

Coming from yourself, a person who has lived in multiple big cities and had to rely on the transit systems of each, Im not surprised you validate this opinion.

You're not the only one. I know countless people from Chicago and NYC. All of my wifes relatives live in Manhattan or Brooklyn and they all laugh when we talk about Houston transit, especially our "one little toy train". Our transit system is a joke to them and everyone else from NY and Chicago Ive ever asked. My brother in law was thinking about moving down here but he doesnt have a car, he just gets around on the NYC subways. When he made a trip down here to try out our Metro system for a few days he quickly said "fuhgeddaboutit". I guess you could call their stories and yours "anecdotal", I just view it all as coming straight from the horses mouth.

I'll wait for some of the posters here talk to you in a snide jerkoff, condescending way like they do to Vik, just because your opinion is different from theirs, but Im sure they wont since you're the Administrator here. These kind of posts are really deteriorating the board quality and Im glad you called them out.

And I agree, theres more to a discussion on our downtown than just pro-rail/anti-rail.

It's silly to me that people from New York would laugh at Houston's transit system. We're comparing the economic capital of the U.S. to a regional economic center mostly built in the last 50 years. It's as though people in London decided to laugh at Manchester's bus routes or Liverpool's street grid. I'll never understand the insecurity of New Yorkers.

That being said, a good portion of people living in Houston are people who grew up in cities up north and moved here in part because they never wanted to see another grimy subway stop. One can agree or disagree with their decision, but the migration of people from up north to Houston greatly outnumbers the reverse flow.

[RedScare]

That does strike me as a bit strange that New Yorkers would have nothing better to talk about than transit systems. Then again, it's not like they could talk about the Jets without people laughing at them. Maybe transit is all they've got to brag about. I kinda pity them in that regard.

[ArchFan]

I don't think it's that New Yorkers have nothing else to talk about.  Rather, I think it's more that people are so accustomed to feeling like they're being challenged to games of oneupsmanship.  (And, yes, feelings of insecurity can play into that, but perhaps none of us is perfect in that regard.)  Not long ago, I sent to a friend a photo from my balcony looking west toward the buildings along Post Oak at sunset.  He responded by sending a photo from his place, looking toward Manhattan alongside the Brooklyn Bridge.   His view is much more impressive, but I like my view because its something I enjoy it when I come home from work.  Should I feel one-upped?  

 

OK, to keep this from being completely off-topic:  My perception is that a big part of what has held downtown Houston back is/has been a mind-set that developed amongst Houstonians in the post-WWII era, when many  Americans fled from the urban centers.  That phenomenon had a more pronounced effect on cities that were just beginning to boom then and essentially grew up with the automobile.  My dad was part of that generation;  I remember him saying (with a note of pride in his voice) that he hadn't been to downtown Houston for years.   I think that as that generation passes, that mindset is diminishing.

 

Edited August 13, 2013 by ArchFan

[Slick Vik]

I don't think it's that New Yorkers have nothing else to talk about. Rather, I think it's more that people are so accustomed to feeling like they're being challenged to games of oneupsmanship. (And, yes, feelings of insecurity can play into that, but perhaps none of us is perfect in that regard.) Not long ago, I sent to a friend a photo from my balcony looking west toward the buildings along Post Oak at sunset. He responded by sending a photo from his place, looking toward Manhattan alongside the Brooklyn Bridge. His view is much more impressive, but I like my view because its something I enjoy it when I come home from work. Should I feel one-upped?

OK, to keep this from being completely off-topic: My perception is that a big part of what has held downtown Houston back is/has been a mind-set that developed amongst Houstonians in the post-WWII era, when many Americans fled from the urban centers. That phenomenon had a more pronounced effect on cities that were just beginning to boom then and essentially grew up with the automobile. My dad was part of that generation; I remember him saying (with a note of pride in his voice) that he hadn't been to downtown Houston for years. I think that as that generation passes, that mindset is diminishing.

Great post

[kdog08]

Downtown will become an underestimated sports destination. We have 4 professional teams' stadiums along with UH building a new stadium all centrally located and connected by rail. We have almost 2000 hotel rooms that will be coming online by Superbowl. Critical mass is what is keeping downtown from being more than a 9-5 destination. 

Edited August 15, 2013 by kdog08

[musicman]

Critical mass is what is keeping downtown from being more than a 9-5 destination. 

those damn cyclists

[LarryDierker]

those damn cyclists

 

good point. what if i'm running with sciccors, trip, land on the scissors? my woman rushes me to the hospital but critical mass is blocking a street i need to pass. what am I supposed to do? Bleed out in the Volvo?

[j_cuevas713]

Nothing is holding Downtown down, we are beginning to see a new era in Houston!

[Howard Huge]

those damn cyclists

[totheskies]

I agree. I saw this in Istanbul and Bogota. The buses are totally full, even though they run often. In Istanbul, since it has metro and buses, I was able to make the comparison directly with BRT and metro. Maybe it's because the buses have a maximum capacity of two connected buses and trains have many more cars hooked together, or the ease of walking into a spacious train against a narrow bus, but trains seemed to be able to take in more people faster than buses. Also, agreed on the last point. With time, the price of construction and acquiring land becomes only more expensive. We've already pushed it off by 30 years, the longer it takes the more costly it will be for the next generations.

 

This cannot be stated enough... Rail is expensive, but as time goes on, it will only get more expensive.  Land values in central Houston have skyrocketed beyond many people's wildest dreams in just a few short years.  Pretty soon, it's going to be impossible to build a 5-mile line for anything under $1 Billion dollars, making the University Line a $2 Billion dollar deal. 

 

If Houstonians can't stomach the prospect of rail at this point, we should at least START the long- term investment with grade separated BRT lines.  They would be a big improvement over the current system, and could always be converted to rail later on.  My hope is that someone out there will start to think in this direction.  BRT connection to the airports would be another target goal. 

[livincinco]

This cannot be stated enough... Rail is expensive, but as time goes on, it will only get more expensive.  Land values in central Houston have skyrocketed beyond many people's wildest dreams in just a few short years.  Pretty soon, it's going to be impossible to build a 5-mile line for anything under $1 Billion dollars, making the University Line a $2 Billion dollar deal. 

 

If Houstonians can't stomach the prospect of rail at this point, we should at least START the long- term investment with grade separated BRT lines.  They would be a big improvement over the current system, and could always be converted to rail later on.  My hope is that someone out there will start to think in this direction.  BRT connection to the airports would be another target goal. 

 

Irrelevant of whether someone thinks that rail is a good idea or not, I don't think that it's the right idea to build because "someday we're going to need it".  Infrastructure needs to be an investment based on some targeted ROI (and that doesn't have to be a strictly financial justification).

 

Yes, land values in central Houston have skyrocketed, but I would be very hesitant to assume that these prices are sustainable.  I think that it's more likely that there could be a moderate correction in the near future, especially if there's a general economic downturn.

[RedScare]

grade separated BRT lines.  They would be a big improvement over the current system, 

 

Even Chicago is not building elevated lines anymore. They are visual blight, and are an improvement only over a nuclear blast site.

[mfastx]

Irrelevant of whether someone thinks that rail is a good idea or not, I don't think that it's the right idea to build because "someday we're going to need it".  Infrastructure needs to be an investment based on some targeted ROI (and that doesn't have to be a strictly financial justification).

 

Yes, land values in central Houston have skyrocketed, but I would be very hesitant to assume that these prices are sustainable.  I think that it's more likely that there could be a moderate correction in the near future, especially if there's a general economic downturn.

 

I think this here is the root of ideological differences between the two sides here on this forum. 

 

There's certainly valid points for either argument, but what is tough to define is when exactly we "need it."  It seems very subjective. 

[livincinco]

I think this here is the root of ideological differences between the two sides here on this forum.

There's certainly valid points for either argument, but what is tough to define is when exactly we "need it." It seems very subjective.

It's completely subjective and is generally tied to the amount of personal use that an individual would gain from access to the network.

[TowerSpotter]

Here's what kirksey Architecture Firm has to say about what's holding downtown down. Glad to see that even they think the tunnels rob surface life.

 

https://vimeo.com/63254747

[IronTiger]

I think it is better to have shops & restaurants above ground, with transit (rail) underground, as opposed to the other way around, but the real challenge is two fold.

1) Use what you've got.

2) What are you planning to do? Bring people back to live in downtown? Create a competitor to the Galleria? Become a Manhattan knock-off? Decide those things first.

[Montrose1100]

I think it is better to have shops & restaurants above ground, with transit (rail) underground, as opposed to the other way around, but the real challenge is two fold.

1) Use what you've got.

2) What are you planning to do? Bring people back to live in downtown? Create a competitor to the Galleria? Become a Manhattan knock-off? Decide those things first.

I don't think that's goal. It's been baby steps but the goal should be just to help transform Downtown into a viable neighborhood. The skyscrapers will come, but getting residents in has been a challenge.

[IronTiger]

So I went to downtown Houston yesterday. Saw the tunnels (liked 'em, though they were a bit confusing...and S. Louisiana Tunnels need A/C) and the JPMorgan Chase skylobby.

 

Despite being a weekday, street level just didn't seem as lively as I thought it would be. Part of the problem was where I was there was so many shut down buildings: I think a demolished building to my southwest, one was up for rent (empty!), and one was under renovation (when I get my coffee and collect my materials, I think I could tell you where I was exactly). Even the tunnels, while pretty busy with people (mostly getting lunch, of which food court style options were in abundance—though to me they were more spread out than I would've wanted—and I never saw a Whataburger, which I know one exists down there) wouldn't bring a whole lot to downtown's surface unless a bunch of food options were added to street level, which just isn't really possible right now.

 

It's also not really a touristy area: the Museum District had tourists, but the downtown didn't. I think before people want to LIVE in downtown, there has to be tourist options first. The Museum District gets a lot of tourists, but it also is a very fancy area to live (also: Maryland Manor Apartments are gone, and the "Tower of Traffic" signs are back in force, just like 5 years ago!)

 

I think to really get people living in downtown Houston, they have to make it more attractive to tourists, which will bring life, and ultimately permanent residents back to the area.

[livincinco]

I think to really get people living in downtown Houston, they have to make it more attractive to tourists, which will bring life, and ultimately permanent residents back to the area.

I don't really agree with that because I think that there's a difference between amenities that are attractive to residents and those that are attractive to tourists. This is very much a generalization, but in high tourism cities, residents generally try to avoid the tourist areas as much as possible.

Downtown is still lacking the kind of amenities that residents look for, but that becomes a chicken/egg scenario. Businesses don't want to build because there are no residents, residents don't come because there are no businesses.

I personally think that the city is taking a smart approach to this. Provide incentives to builders to draw the residents which will then draw the retail once the development/population reaches critical mass. It will take a couple of years, but I think that will ultimately be very successful.

[IronTiger]

I don't really agree with that because I think that there's a difference between amenities that are attractive to residents and those that are attractive to tourists. This is very much a generalization, but in high tourism cities, residents generally try to avoid the tourist areas as much as possible.

Downtown is still lacking the kind of amenities that residents look for, but that becomes a chicken/egg scenario. Businesses don't want to build because there are no residents, residents don't come because there are no businesses.

I personally think that the city is taking a smart approach to this. Provide incentives to builders to draw the residents which will then draw the retail once the development/population reaches critical mass. It will take a couple of years, but I think that will ultimately be very successful.

I was trying to think of residents living in downtown, and the only thing I could come up with is a few towers (Post Rice Lofts, other apartments) that are mostly upscale. Even Detroit has a building or two with high-end apartments (no idea on the occupancy though), but their downtown is...not very good.

 

In comparing downtown Detroit and Houston (yes, I know the two cities are nothing alike, but let me finish, please), there is a certain set of people that go to sporting events, get drunk, and go home, but that's not exactly the tourism I'm talking about. If a family wanted to go see the Museum District on a weekend (or even a weekday), what incentive is there to hop on the light rail and go toward downtown? (Not much.)

 

There is talk in the "revitalizing downtown" talk about creating a (better) retail district, which will bring in people. Could adding retail both bring in the locals and residents? If GREENSTREET works out, that could be a huge anchor in that aspect. While I have some things I don't like about downtown as it is now (reopen Main Street!) I think it is moving in a right direction.

[livincinco]

I was trying to think of residents living in downtown, and the only thing I could come up with is a few towers (Post Rice Lofts, other apartments) that are mostly upscale. Even Detroit has a building or two with high-end apartments (no idea on the occupancy though), but their downtown is...not very good.

In comparing downtown Detroit and Houston (yes, I know the two cities are nothing alike, but let me finish, please), there is a certain set of people that go to sporting events, get drunk, and go home, but that's not exactly the tourism I'm talking about. If a family wanted to go see the Museum District on a weekend (or even a weekday), what incentive is there to hop on the light rail and go toward downtown? (Not much.)

There is talk in the "revitalizing downtown" talk about creating a (better) retail district, which will bring in people. Could adding retail both bring in the locals and residents? If GREENSTREET works out, that could be a huge anchor in that aspect. While I have some things I don't like about downtown as it is now (reopen Main Street!) I think it is moving in a right direction.

Sure, but think about everything that's under construction right now. I posted an article earlier on the thread talking about how critical mass in downtown Dallas occurred when the downtown population got to 15-20k and that the retail started to develop around that point. I don't think that DT Houston will be quite at that number even with the construction that's currently underway, but it's not a stretch to expect that another 2-3 projects could get announced in the next 6-12 months. I think that's when the retail that many people crave will start to develop.

Just to be clear though, that retail is probably local retail, not really destination retail. Houston already has destination retail in Uptown and I really don't see any possibility of Downtown supplanting Uptown as the retail destination in the city. I just don't think that there's any reason to try. I would much rather see Greenstreets continue to position itself as an entertainment venue than a shopping area. LA Live is a great example of that. It's an entertainment and dining complex close to the basketball arena and the convention center. It has virtually no shopping and it has completely revitalized that part of downtown LA.

[IronTiger]

Sure, but think about everything that's under construction right now. I posted an article earlier on the thread talking about how critical mass in downtown Dallas occurred when the downtown population got to 15-20k and that the retail started to develop around that point. I don't think that DT Houston will be quite at that number even with the construction that's currently underway, but it's not a stretch to expect that another 2-3 projects could get announced in the next 6-12 months. I think that's when the retail that many people crave will start to develop.

Just to be clear though, that retail is probably local retail, not really destination retail. Houston already has destination retail in Uptown and I really don't see any possibility of Downtown supplanting Uptown as the retail destination in the city. I just don't think that there's any reason to try. I would much rather see Greenstreets continue to position itself as an entertainment venue than a shopping area. LA Live is a great example of that. It's an entertainment and dining complex close to the basketball arena and the convention center. It has virtually no shopping and it has completely revitalized that part of downtown LA.

It's unrealistic to think that Downtown should try to attract upscale tenants (or even supplant Uptown--I think Houston could support two upscale districts). Nordstrom? No, that's not realistic. Target? That's more like it. Would tourists and suburbanites make the trip downtown Houston to go to a Target, even a multi-level one? Probably not, but those living in downtown would. Suddenly downtown becomes a lot more attractive place to live. Retail will build "up": the base "core" components are there: the tunnels and the street levels have convenience stores, a few drug stores, fast food, and a few other items. What if the old Holiday/Days/Heaven on Earth Inn was renovated to include a tenant like Target in the lower levels and be linked in with the tunnel system, and have residential above that? Suddenly, an eyesore becomes a strong downtown anchor, and life continues to spread from there.

[livincinco]

Totally agree with you. Target would be a nice win for downtown and is exactly the kind of retail that is needed, but you need to continue to increase the residential base to support it. In my opinion, that's where efforts should be focused for the short term.

[IronTiger]

It wouldn't be just residents in downtown: it would be Midtown residents and workers, and downtown workers, hence the "tunnel connection" mentioned. The only "gotcha" is the Sawyer Road Target near The Heights.

If it's anything close to a success, then it will serve as a catalyst for new residents and businesses.

[IronTiger]

I really disagree with the notion that the tunnels robbed the streets of life or such nonsense, as you can argue that such the street level's activity disappeared when sprawl happened and all.

Like freeway removal advocates, the worst examples (like Cincinnati) involve poor implementation and maintenance.

Are there any apartment buildings linked to the tunnel systems?

[TowerSpotter]

Are there any apartment buildings linked to the tunnel systems?

 

Not yet, Isn't the Hine's residential tower suppose to be connected to it?

[ClutchCity]

Not yet, Isn't the Hine's residential tower suppose to be connected to it?

The Texaco building renovations are going to be linked to the tunnels so 609 Main can get its connection is my understanding.

Edited September 3, 2013 by ClutchCity