Vintage Park Shopping Village Developments

[Houston19514]

Looks like some REALLY bad news regarding the Vintage Park complex.

The highly anticipated book store (thought to be either Barnes & Noble or Borders) is no longer going up. Looks like it will be replaced by a title company and other "financial" related establishments. I checked the site just a few minutes ago.

Also, there's no mention of a Cheesecake Factory STILL after all of this time that it was rumored. Looks like that's a no-go as well.

So, it seems, that with the exception of a few eateries, the whole thing will be loaded with banks and business offices, hardly appealing to a casual shopper and dinner seekers.

I was afraid that this was going to happen. Unless someone knows otherwise, this doesn't seem to be the cultural area that was anticipated.

What is the source of your information about the book store?

[PureAuteur]

I sure hope this whole thing looks nice, but with all the cut-and-paste tenants that have been listed, it seems like it'll be just another "upscale" corporate chain-fest like you have anywhere else in this country. Whatever happened to unique development anyways? Did it just disappear with the 70s and 80s? And don't tell me that the architecture is unique. I guarantee it will be some stylistic rip-off and completely uninspired. It will be a design that could quickly and easily be copied to a common strip center. You can also tell the quality of engineering and workmanship based on how long it takes to build it and how many specialists they use in construction. If it goes up practically overnight, then you just got basically another shopping center that's sorta European looking. It's amazing when you drive down Cypresswood and Louetta how much Tuscan-Spanish-Mediterranean themed architecture there is. How do those styles fit with pine tree forests anyways? I'd say English/British or Colorado-style architecture would fit better.

[TheNiche]

You can tell you are dealing with humans who are mere greedbags when they line the street with 4 bank pad sites in a row - this is built by the kind of person who, with the financial success of the project utterly assured, is still more interested in the fact that banks are able to pay rather higher prices than other retail branches than in the tackiness of their billion-dollar project meeting the street with four minor bank branches in a row.

I had a small role in the initial stages of this project. I can assure you that the total size of an investment is not necessarily correlated with risk-adjusted profit margins. Please do not use HAIF to spread uninformed speculation without a disclaimer that it is such. Thank you.

[Houston19514]

Well, it looks like I wasn't too far off in my pessimism.

The book store has been taken off the website.

Also looks like they decided to fill the second floor of one of the buildings in this "cultural" center with a title company.

And still no word about the Cheesecake Factory.

If anyone has heard of what in the world is going on, I think that many of us would love to know. It is hardly ending up being this marketplace like establishment we all hoped it would be. It's sounding more like a typical finance complex.

I may be missing what you are talking about, but when I go to the website, I still see "books" on the site plan. And I would imagine offices are what they had in mind for most of the second floor areas to begin with. I don't think having a title company in the second floor is any indication of doom and gloom for this project.

[MidtownCoog]

Colorado-style architecture would fit better.

That's what I have said. They need to go for faux-Pacfic Northwest. At least they have (had?) the tress to fake it.

Right now everythign I see on that side of town is turning into faux-faux.

[PureAuteur]

I had a small role in the initial stages of this project. I can assure you that the total size of an investment is not necessarily correlated with risk-adjusted profit margins. Please do not use HAIF to spread uninformed speculation without a disclaimer that it is such. Thank you.

What?

I really don't think anyone's going to give much thought to what the poster said after leaving their computer, and if they do, what difference does it make? This is a message board about opinions and ideas. We don't need disclaimers. Obviously, this is not an investment banking analysts forum.

[Avabamse]

I sure hope this whole thing looks nice, but with all the cut-and-paste tenants that have been listed, it seems like it'll be just another "upscale" corporate chain-fest like you have anywhere else in this country. Whatever happened to unique development anyways? Did it just disappear with the 70s and 80s? And don't tell me that the architecture is unique. I guarantee it will be some stylistic rip-off and completely uninspired. It will be a design that could quickly and easily be copied to a common strip center. You can also tell the quality of engineering and workmanship based on how long it takes to build it and how many specialists they use in construction. If it goes up practically overnight, then you just got basically another shopping center that's sorta European looking. It's amazing when you drive down Cypresswood and Louetta how much Tuscan-Spanish-Mediterranean themed architecture there is. How do those styles fit with pine tree forests anyways? I'd say English/British or Colorado-style architecture would fit better.

Have you driven by this development? It is not something being thrown up overnight. Look at how well designed Uptown Park is. This place has one of the highest sales per square foot in the city.

This is not a development that can be justed copied. So what if it looks faux Mediterranean?!? People shop like mad at the Galleria, Memorial City, Highland Village (palm trees in the urban corridor). I don't hear people saying "damn, now only if they tore down those palm trees, I would shop at Crate & Barrel".

By the way, please define English architecture - is it a castle, a pub, tudor or what? Colorado-style - is this a lodge feel? You do know that pine trees grow in Italy and Spain, right?

How about suggesting Texas hill country style if you want something representative of the area... oh, wait that could be copied too!

[MidtownCoog]

Uptown Park also looks out of place in my book.

[PureAuteur]

Looks like some REALLY bad news regarding the Vintage Park complex.

The highly anticipated book store (thought to be either Barnes & Noble or Borders) is no longer going up. Looks like it will be replaced by a title company and other "financial" related establishments. I checked the site just a few minutes ago.

Also, there's no mention of a Cheesecake Factory STILL after all of this time that it was rumored. Looks like that's a no-go as well.

So, it seems, that with the exception of a few eateries, the whole thing will be loaded with banks and business offices, hardly appealing to a casual shopper and dinner seekers.

I was afraid that this was going to happen. Unless someone knows otherwise, this doesn't seem to be the cultural area that was anticipated.

I actually like the idea of the Vintage being mostly banks and business offices, but it doesn't work with the architectural design and planning. If you're going to create a vintage Mediterranean shopping experience, then there needs to be shopping and eating. They really screwed up with this project, and I think it will be a failure. The Willowbrook shopping center is much nicer looking to me, because it's not trying to be something it's not. It's simply a well-designed commercial area for shopping and entertainment. What they should have done with the Vintage was to make it an extension of the development around the original HP facilities with the mid-rise buildings. They should have kept all the natural trees and built around them. The HEB store is still a good idea, but this should have a modern architectural concept similar to the development on the other side of the freeway. The "vintage" concept was a mistake, and whoever thought of it likely doesn't live around nw Houston nor know anything about it. I'm not saying the project will be an eyesore, rather it just won't have a comfortable feel to it, and people will get an artificial feel when walking around.

[PureAuteur]

Have you driven by this development? It is not something being thrown up overnight. Look at how well designed Uptown Park is. This place has one of the highest sales per square foot in the city.

This is not a development that can be justed copied. So what if it looks faux Mediterranean?!? People shop like mad at the Galleria, Memorial City, Highland Village (palm trees in the urban corridor). I don't hear people saying "damn, now only if they tore down those palm trees, I would shop at Crate & Barrel".

By the way, please define English architecture - is it a castle, a pub, tudor or what? Colorado-style - is this a lodge feel? You do know that pine trees grow in Italy and Spain, right?

How about suggesting Texas hill country style if you want something representative of the area... oh, wait that could be copied too!

Yes, English style could be any of those things and Colorado would be like a lodge feel. The strip center on Cutten between Cypresswood and 1960 is about as close as this area has to a Hill Country design. It actually goes well with the surrounding trees. The Vintage development is just going bring in more of these wanna-be high class women who drink Michelob Ultra, spend all day at the spas, drive a Lexus, and dress in such a way that if they were in one of those decorated model apartment units in a suburban luxury apartment complex, they would just blend right in.

People shop like mad at the Galleria, Memorial City, and Highland Village because they are consumeristic and gravitate toward anything that looks upscale.

[mrfootball]

I actually like the idea of the Vintage being mostly banks and business offices, but it doesn't work with the architectural design and planning. If you're going to create a vintage Mediterranean shopping experience, then there needs to be shopping and eating. They really screwed up with this project, and I think it will be a failure. The Willowbrook shopping center is much nicer looking to me, because it's not trying to be something it's not. It's simply a well-designed commercial area for shopping and entertainment. What they should have done with the Vintage was to make it an extension of the development around the original HP facilities with the mid-rise buildings. They should have kept all the natural trees and built around them. The HEB store is still a good idea, but this should have a modern architectural concept similar to the development on the other side of the freeway. The "vintage" concept was a mistake, and whoever thought of it likely doesn't live around nw Houston nor know anything about it. I'm not saying the project will be an eyesore, rather it just won't have a comfortable feel to it, and people will get an artificial feel when walking around.

I disagree. There's quite a bit of demand for such a project.

As for the trees. I'd like to have seen them preserve more, but if you look at this aerial of the similar-sized Woodlands Market Street project, you'll see that they cleared that area as well leaving a similar buffer.

As for the office space, the Vintage Park project represents a smaller portion of the overall development.

I too am tired of the whole Mediteranean look and feel it looks out of sorts in a pine forest, but it will still be very nice. I'd like to have seen them take on more of a "Lake Como" style of look.

[Avabamse]

PureAuteur - how about passing judgement on this development's potential failure after construction is completed. It's like saying with authority that the Texans first round draft pick is a failure before he plays a down of pro football. How do you know? How do I know? I understand that it is more fun to be the first one to say it will fail so you can say that you told everyone. Patience...

By the way, the Willowbrook shopping center and the mall are dawgs of sorts. The mall is OVERDUE for a redev. The shopping center is mildly successful due to location and the big box tenants. Yet, there are gaps (unleased sections) all over the place, such as the old movie theater. I go to shop at one store there and drive home. Then I may go back to another store and go home. This shopping center does not encourage people to walk the center like Uptown or Market Street does or Vintage is planned to do.

Lastly, Vintage is just a name and it will become less of an 'adjective' in time just like what you think of when you think of Memorial City area. Do you think of the area of Memorial or a memorial to something or it being a city. No. You just think of the collective area.

[TheNiche]

What?

I really don't think anyone's going to give much thought to what the poster said after leaving their computer, and if they do, what difference does it make? This is a message board about opinions and ideas. We don't need disclaimers. Obviously, this is not an investment banking analysts forum.

The subject matter discussed on HAIF is very frequently influenced or dominated by discussions of finance and economics. Many people have opinions and ideas related to these fields, but many cannot support them either theoretically or with insider knowledge, and do not present it as a question or as an unqualified opinion. That irks me to no end.

EDIT: Btw, for the record, I agree that the Medeterrainian style has gotten stale, but it is far less a concern than you might think. People care much more about the tenant mix, cleanliness, perceived safety, and of course location.

[MidtownCoog]

BS alert

[PureAuteur]

PureAuteur - how about passing judgement on this development's potential failure after construction is completed. It's like saying with authority that the Texans first round draft pick is a failure before he plays a down of pro football. How do you know? How do I know? I understand that it is more fun to be the first one to say it will fail so you can say that you told everyone. Patience...

By the way, the Willowbrook shopping center and the mall are dawgs of sorts. The mall is OVERDUE for a redev. The shopping center is mildly successful due to location and the big box tenants. Yet, there are gaps (unleased sections) all over the place, such as the old movie theater. I go to shop at one store there and drive home. Then I may go back to another store and go home. This shopping center does not encourage people to walk the center like Uptown or Market Street does or Vintage is planned to do.

Lastly, Vintage is just a name and it will become less of an 'adjective' in time just like what you think of when you think of Memorial City area. Do you think of the area of Memorial or a memorial to something or it being a city. No. You just think of the collective area.

I was referring to the newer Willowbrook plaza surrounded by 249 to the east, Gessner to the north, Mills to the West, and Greens to the south. I think it's actually a pleasant shopping center and not faux-looking in the least. It's a nice hybrid of strip mall and walkable lifestyle center. Sometimes when I'm catching a movie at the AMC and I'm really early for the showing, I'll just walk around the plaza for about 30 minutes. The shopping center you were thinking of that housed the old theater isn't that great, but isn't bad either. I'm not sure I even have an opinion on it. As much as I like dense, pedestrian-friendly development, it doesn't work in nw Houston. I actually prefer the status-quo in this area. Until we run out of oil, I see no reason to abandon the strip malls and parking lots. The only thing that really bothers me is the clear cutting of trees. Developers are just assholes.

[TheNiche]

The only thing that really bothers me is the clear cutting of trees. Developers are just assholes.

Ugh. And here we go again...

[aliciacw]

My opinion: this development is tacky, neo-bastard, tired, nouveau-riche crap. Not a fan. One side of the street (Louetta) should have been made into a very nice (private?) park for the residents on the opposite site. Where will all their little precious kids play soccer? Meyer Park? We have more soccer moms than can cheer on the sides of the available soccer fields in this area. Way to go, Vince. You could have given people the infinite pleasure and increasing value of living near a park, but you're too near-sighted. Hope your market of potential buyers is a little more savvy.

[Jedijake]

I may be missing what you are talking about, but when I go to the website, I still see "books" on the site plan. And I would imagine offices are what they had in mind for most of the second floor areas to begin with. I don't think having a title company in the second floor is any indication of doom and gloom for this project.

When have you visited the site last? As of yesterday at least, there was no book store listed.

[TheNiche]

My opinion: this development is tacky, neo-bastard, tired, nouveau-riche crap. Not a fan. One side of the street (Louetta) should have been made into a very nice (private?) park for the residents on the opposite site. Where will all their little precious kids play soccer? Meyer Park? We have more soccer moms than can cheer on the sides of the available soccer fields in this area. Way to go, Vince. You could have given people the infinite pleasure and increasing value of living near a park, but you're too near-sighted. Hope your market of potential buyers is a little more savvy.

"Neo-bastard?" That's a new one.

The single-family component of the Vintage development is actually pretty small and the apartments that are far more numerous tend not to have many children living there, so a private park oriented toward children and soccer moms would've likely been underutilized; meanwhile, the costs of the land, park improvements, and park maintenance would've had to have been passed on to the residents, and the land was just too valuable as commercial property (an aspect already factored into the purchase price of the land) to make it financially feasible as a park.

V&W Partners did donate land along Cypress Creek to Harris County as a public park, however. It is intentionally situated away from most residential uses because relatively few people want to live next to a place where noisy strangers tend to congregate.

As you suggested, Elizabeth Kaiser Meyer Park, just a few miles away, is probably the best place to go for a soccer field. I'm sure that the kinds of families that can afford the Vintage can afford a couple of bucks worth of gasoline and ten minutes.

[Houston19514]

When have you visited the site last? As of yesterday at least, there was no book store listed.

Moments before I posted my question to you. On the Site Plan, as I said. Building H.

[Jedijake]

Willowbrook is losing businesses left and right. CompUSA, of all places, is leaving both that area and I-45/1960 ( I have NO idea considering its only competition is BestBuy; in the era of technology, there's no bigger need). The Gessner area of Willowbrook is also getting more and more vacant.

But back to Vintage Park. If this is what it is supposed to be, it will have places for people to go, eat, hang out, etc. It's hard to draw people in with only banks and title companies. As we speak, there are only two, yes TWO restaurants: Mia Bello and Shogun. Shogun in nothing spectacular or unique since you can find them anywhere, including pseudo-strip centers. Mia Bello is a new pace, but why on Earth would Mia Bello want to stay in that area if no one else comes to it. I just want to know why hasn't Cheesecake Factory, Ruth's Chris, or one of the major book store chains been added to the site since it had seemed all but certain that they would be coming to Vintage Park?

Seems to me that the plan was set and maps were drawn with the assumption that those businesses would come. However, nothing's a guarentee. I very often wonder why developers, big or small, come into an area and put up buildings only for half of the places to remain empty forever and the other half filled up with low-money nails, cleaners, and donuts.

Seems there is a market for MUCh MUCH more than those businesses. Developers cannot possibly be making much money on empty buildings.

[TheNiche]

Developers cannot possibly be making much money on empty buildings.

Of retail built in 77064, 77066, 77069, and 77070 since 2004, occupancy is presently 84.7%, even though a couple strip centers, completed last year, have not yet stabilized.

Willowbrook was hurt somewhat when 122,000 square feet of space were vacated by Lord & Taylor, but their departure from the Houston market was based upon more factors than just business at Willowbrook. Willowbrook is at about 90% occupancy, and they've never gone below that amount over at least the past five years. Even at 90%, they're a couple points higher than the present average occupancy for regional malls throughout the Houston area. I would not characterize them as being in financial distress...at least not yet. It remains to be seen whether the retail at the Vintage gives them a run for their money. For the time being, their demographic base is healthy and growing.

[Jedijake]

How much of the 84% is filled by nail salons, cleaners, and donut shops? (and the other types that you see in every single strip center?)

Seems that areas between 249 and 290 are having a horrible time filling in strip centers because, well, there are too many of them. They just seem to put them up for the sake of putting them up-no plan, no prospects, etc.

Kinda seems odd. The population keeps growing and growing and supposedly the employment rate is high, but where on earth are people working?

[Jedijake]

Weird, it isnt' showing up for me. The building H just says something like 36,000 sq.ft along with Shogun restaurant.

The tenant list itself of stores no longer has books listed when I view it.

[psilverot]

I still see the space for the bookstore also. I'm sure Vintage Park will have a good tenant list. It just comes with time. Be patient....

[Jedijake]

Ok I see the book store and the sandwich shop on the site plan layout page still.

It was the interactive page and the tenant listing where those two were taken off.

Maybe that's just until they get absolute confirmation. Hopefully, overall, it doesnt' mean anything that it's not listed on those parts.

[buildingunbuildingrebuilding]

How much of the 84% is filled by nail salons, cleaners, and donut shops? (and the other types that you see in every single strip center?)

Seems that areas between 249 and 290 are having a horrible time filling in strip centers because, well, there are too many of them. They just seem to put them up for the sake of putting them up-no plan, no prospects, etc.

Kinda seems odd. The population keeps growing and growing and supposedly the employment rate is high, but where on earth are people working?

Far less people work at HP headquarters today than did when the merger occurred. That is not even taking into account the large number of people at HP who supposedly work there but telecommute most days. Houston has had strong job growth lately, but I question how much of it is the 249 corridor (although there is a fairly new hospital up there).

I would also question the impact on this shopping center due to its lack of visibility from 249. And has been pointed out, there is no lack of retail in that general area. But maybe people will flock there because of the faux-mediterranean-uptown-park-derived-disneyesque retail look.

[hbcu]

I lived right by Willowbrook Mall in the midst of it all and I also stayed in Tomball so I know the area

I like to eat great, etc. but I prefer The Woodlands setting as of now over Vintage...they opened a brand new PF Changs on 249 but I still drove to the one in The Woodlands....

Where I lived, I could get to anywhere in Houston is less than 20 minutes on a clear day..unless Vintage has something I just got to have the merchants listed aren't enough to make me drive there first...

Might as well stroll down 1960 and I can basically get what I need....when I lived in Tomball, I wasn't far from The Woodlands so basically Vintage Park's future success will depend on the surrounding areas..not the immediate areas.

The massive strip center where AMC 24 is on 249 gets alot of its business from individuals inside the Beltway

[hbcu]

I've seen developments in older, less affluent neighborhoods get more commitments in record time from retailers than this place...

[houstonmacbro]

Just learned that one of the restaurants coming to Vintage Park will be Ruth's Chris Steakhouse.

Generally where is Vintage Park? Never heard of this (neighborhood?).