Trebly Park At 1515 Fannin St.

[thedistrict84]

24 minutes ago, staresatmaps said:

Groundbreaking for "Trebly Park" because it is on block 333 and has 3 corners due to the terrible parking lot. Estimated completion of March 2022. Will include Tout Suite cafe.

That is good news I guess, I was wondering where they were going to relocate.

[X.R.]

On 12/27/2019 at 3:13 PM, Moore713 said:

Hate that they don't want to contribute to the revitalization of down 

My favorite part of all this is the park will go into STCL promo materials as "enjoy the heart of downtown Houston," or they will host events at the park. I hope they make some kind of wall that seals off the parking lot from the park, and grow some greenery on it. Maybe a wall of trees, that would be cool. Otherwise it will be VERY on-brand for Houston to have this beautiful park that is built around a very visible parking lot you can't park in.

Edited March 15, 2021 by X.R.

[Houston19514]

38 minutes ago, X.R. said:

My favorite part of all this is the park will go into STCL promo materials as "enjoy the heart of downtown Houston," or they will host events at the park. I hope they make some kind of wall that seals off the parking lot from the park, and grow some greenery on it. Maybe a wall of trees, that would be cool. Otherwise it will be VERY on-brand for Houston to have this beautiful park that is built around a very visible parking lot you can't park in.

https://www.houstonchronicle.com/news/houston-texas/houston/article/What-Downtown-Houston-s-next-park-will-look-like-13808234.php#photo-17312455

[august948]

On 3/12/2021 at 11:20 AM, staresatmaps said:

Groundbreaking for "Trebly Park" because it is on block 333 and has 3 corners due to the terrible parking lot. Estimated completion of March 2022. Will include Tout Suite cafe.

 

Think of the parking lot as the future site for restaurants adjacent to the park.  You can be sure that parking lot won't be there forevermore.

[phillip_white]

1 hour ago, august948 said:

Think of the parking lot as the future site for restaurants adjacent to the park.  You can be sure that parking lot won't be there forevermore.

The parking lot is owned by a university that doesn't pay property tax. The park exists because of a ground lease from a private owner. With this being Houston, I would guess the park disappears before the parking lot.

[Ross]

5 hours ago, phillip_white said:

The parking lot is owned by a university that doesn't pay property tax. The park exists because of a ground lease from a private owner. With this being Houston, I would guess the park disappears before the parking lot.

The park property is owned by a trust created on the death of the creator in 1972. There were two trusts, one terminated at the death of the beneficiary, and the property is now owned by a single trust. The beneficiaries of the trust are entitled to the income from the trust, but apparently have no control over the disposition of the property.

[phillip_white]

1 hour ago, Ross said:

The park property is owned by a trust created on the death of the creator in 1972. There were two trusts, one terminated at the death of the beneficiary, and the property is now owned by a single trust. The beneficiaries of the trust are entitled to the income from the trust, but apparently have no control over the disposition of the property.

Yes, so the future of the park depends on who the executors of the trust are and what their long term goal is for creating revenue for the beneficiaries.

[wilcal]

2 hours ago, Ross said:

The park property is owned by a trust created on the death of the creator in 1972. There were two trusts, one terminated at the death of the beneficiary, and the property is now owned by a single trust. The beneficiaries of the trust are entitled to the income from the trust, but apparently have no control over the disposition of the property.

Sooo..... time for eminent domain? Honestly a possibly rare win-win scenario?

Just seems bananas to me to spend $10 mil for 30 years of a lease when the land can't be more than that. 

[Houston19514]

15 hours ago, wilcal said:

Sooo..... time for eminent domain? Honestly a possibly rare win-win scenario?

Just seems bananas to me to spend $10 mil for 30 years of a lease when the land can't be more than that. 

The present value of that stream of payments is probably closer to 7.5'ish Million. The land is quite likely worth a good deal more than that.  (Skanska's purchase about 3 1/3 acres over near Discovery Green was reported at about $16.5 Million per acre; this property is almost exactly 1 acre.)

[wilcal]

6 hours ago, Houston19514 said:

The present value of that stream of payments is probably closer to 7.5'ish Million. The land is quite likely worth a good deal more than that.  (Skanska's purchase about 3 1/3 acres over near Discovery Green was reported at about $16.5 Million per acre; this property is almost exactly 1 acre.)

There's a partial lot 1/5 of an acre for sale on the opposite corner of San Jac/Leeland. I'm just going to email the broker and ask what the price is. I know that there is a premium for a full lot, but we'll see what they say. 

https://www.loopnet.com/Listing/San-Jacinto-St-Leeland-Houston-TX/21966942

[cspwal]

Does it come with the abandoned minivan?

[wilcal]

22 hours ago, Houston19514 said:

The present value of that stream of payments is probably closer to 7.5'ish Million. The land is quite likely worth a good deal more than that.  (Skanska's purchase about 3 1/3 acres over near Discovery Green was reported at about $16.5 Million per acre; this property is almost exactly 1 acre.)

 

15 hours ago, wilcal said:

There's a partial lot 1/5 of an acre for sale on the opposite corner of San Jac/Leeland. I'm just going to email the broker and ask what the price is. I know that there is a premium for a full lot, but we'll see what they say. 

https://www.loopnet.com/Listing/San-Jacinto-St-Leeland-Houston-TX/21966942

I heard back and they said that while there is no set price, that they expect the selling price to be between $200-$250/sq ft for this lot and the one they have listed in block 314. 

So there you go. 1 acre is 43,650 sq ft, so $8.71 to $10.89 million equivalency at those prices. 

I know that it's not simple for TIRZ to borrow money and to get the city to use eminent domain for them.... but this seems like a no-brainer still.

I guess nothing is precluding them from doing it in a few years.

 

[Houston19514]

1 hour ago, wilcal said:

 

I heard back and they said that while there is no set price, that they expect the selling price to be between $200-$250/sq ft for this lot and the one they have listed in block 314. 

So there you go. 1 acre is 43,650 sq ft, so $8.71 to $10.89 million equivalency at those prices. 

I know that it's not simple for TIRZ to borrow money and to get the city to use eminent domain for them.... but this seems like a no-brainer still.

I guess nothing is precluding them from doing it in a few years.

 

It's worth noting that even the low end of that is significantly more than the present value of what is being paid for long-term lease of the park parcel.  (And as you suggested, a lot as small as those two posted lots probably take a pretty big hit on price because the possible uses for downtown lots of about 8,300 and 4,800 sq ft are pretty limited. I suspect an appraiser would not even be able to use them as comps for a 1 acre parcel) 

Edited March 17, 2021 by Houston19514

[wilcal]

3 hours ago, Houston19514 said:

It's worth noting that even the low end of that is significantly more than the present value of what is being paid for long-term lease of the park parcel.  (And as you suggested, a lot as small as those two posted lots probably take a pretty big hit on price because the possible uses for downtown lots of about 8,300 and 4,800 sq ft are pretty limited. I suspect an appraiser would not even be able to use them as comps for a 1 acre parcel) 

I'm not particularly familiar with TIRZ borrowing, but with them investing $9-$10 million on build out and the $7.5 millionish of lease payments, it just doesn't seem like that big of a stretch to bump the $7.5 up to $10-$12 to own it for forever.

Also, I forgot that the chunk of the block that they aren't developing is owned by South Texas College of Law *sigh*

[hindesky]

https://www.houstoniamag.com/travel-and-outdoors/2021/04/what-to-know-about-downtown-trebly-park-2022

[Ross]

On 3/17/2021 at 4:07 PM, wilcal said:

I'm not particularly familiar with TIRZ borrowing, but with them investing $9-$10 million on build out and the $7.5 millionish of lease payments, it just doesn't seem like that big of a stretch to bump the $7.5 up to $10-$12 to own it for forever.

Also, I forgot that the chunk of the block that they aren't developing is owned by South Texas College of Law *sigh*

Someday, that STCL parking lot will be the only one left in Downtown, and there will be controversy over whether it should be a protected site as a "historic" parking lot.🤣

[Tumbleweed_Tx]

by that time, the people would be asking what parking lots were used for

[hindesky]

[X.R.]

This is probably a dumb question, but why let all the grass grow if you were going to raze it all again? Was it to prep the soil or something? 

[hindesky]

3 hours ago, X.R. said:

This is probably a dumb question, but why let all the grass grow if you were going to raze it all again? Was it to prep the soil or something? 

I would guess it was to keep the topsoil from washing away.

[phillip_white]

4 hours ago, hindesky said:

I would guess it was to keep the topsoil from washing away.

I was gonna say to reduce runoff (turf absorbs more water than dirt), but I bet both are true. Wonder if that's required as part of their stormwater management plan.

[hindesky]

[cspwal]

On 4/12/2021 at 3:05 PM, X.R. said:

This is probably a dumb question, but why let all the grass grow if you were going to raze it all again? Was it to prep the soil or something? 

Probably the wrong grass too, and in the wrong spots.  The park will probably have subtle rises and falls, and have paved sections and such.  

[hindesky]

[hindesky]

I guess it's too muddy to work, no one on site.

[hindesky]

[hindesky]

[X.R.]

The grass will have grown back by the time they get started on this thing given the rate of speed they are moving. 

[HNathoo]

Very unfortunate time to being doing dirt work - no real opportunity to dry out the site.

[hindesky]