Citizens National Bank At 402 Main St.

[Ethanra]

Which larger cities are you thinking of with less retail downtown? LA maybe, but what else? The only cities bigger than Houston are Chicago, NY, and LA right? Maybe LA has less downtown shopping options (I don't know LA well) but the other two definitely have more, as well as smaller cities like Austin.

A friend of mine told me yesterday that there is more to do in downtown Dallas than Houston, but I've never been there myself to compare. He said the shopping options downtown were good and that there were more people around in the day, while Houston had more people around at night (at least on Saturday night when we were there).

I was meaning Dallas. I didn't want to sart a my **** is bigger then yours conversation by saying what city. I've been to Dallas hundreds of times and DT Dallas is very limited. I'm sure your friend and others very conviently would like to include Uptown in with DT Dallas. Also from what I have heard Atlanta DT is very limited as well, unless you would want to include Buckhead/Uptown in with Atlanta's DT... When I said larger cities, I did not mean larger then Houston, I meant a large city in general.

Edited September 10, 2007 by Ethanra

[Jax]

I see. Yeah, I've never been to Dallas so it's hard to say. This guy is from Guatamala. He has family in Dallas so he knows Dallas better than Houston, but he is here in Houston now doing an elective for his medical school at MD Anderson for a few months. That was his observation after being here for 3 weeks, but he could definitely have uptown/downtown confused in Dallas. He said one of Dallas's biggest shopping centers was downtown and that there are "more buildings" and more people around during the day and weekend. I know most of that isn't accurate, and I don't want to start a flame war here. That's just the general idea that a tourist gets after visiting both cities and not knowing either particularly well.

A woman where I work also told me that Dallas's downtown is so much bigger than Houston's. I tried to tell her that was not true (from what I've heard), but who am I to argue when I've never been to Dallas? She said the buildings might not be as tall but there's a larger "downtown" area, or something like that. She was commenting on a photo of Houston's skyline from the air. I don't know if she meant it was less dense, or what.

[Vertigo58]

That's why I stopped going to clubs and bars, Just making eye contact with someone can get you shot these days.

and now that shooting at Club Next (I think its called) in warehouse district this past weekend will put another black eye on the DT image.

ABC 13 interviewed 2 inept jerks way over in Midtown about the incident if that makes any sense? You could hardly make out what they were saying but reporter was just clueless of the club scene. Why would they compare MT to Warehouse area is beyond me. It was a confrontation of some guy & another at the bar. Could have been over drugs, a girl, who knows. The media fuels the disdane for heading DT period. Quote un quote.

(read the Chron, I didnt make this up) Love is in the air!

[King Owl]

I have an office in DT Houston and one in DT Dallas. I can say with complete confidence that DT Houston blows the pants off DT Dallas. DT Dallas lacks dining options, retail options, there are many fewer buildings, and it's dead at night. I believe there are more hotels there than in DT Houston, however. DT Houston has so much more to offer, such as the Toyota Center, Park Shops, MMP, plenty of restaurants, etc. Now, if you include uptown Dallas, it's another story, but uptown Dallas is not walkable from DT Dallas and I don't see why you would include that area in the discussion.

[The New Juniper]

Theory adopted by Giuliani in NY. We could learn here in Houston......

Article titled Broken Windows by James Q. Wilson and George L. Kelling, which appeared in the March 1982 edition of The Atlantic Monthly:

"Consider a building with a few broken windows. If the windows are not repaired, the tendency is for vandals to break a few more windows. Eventually, they may even break into the building, and if it's unoccupied, perhaps become squatters or light fires inside.

Or consider a sidewalk. Some litter accumulates. Soon, more litter accumulates. Eventually, people even start leaving bags of trash from take-out restaurants there or breaking into cars."

[musicman]

Theory adopted by Giuliani in NY. We could learn here in Houston......

Article titled Broken Windows by James Q. Wilson and George L. Kelling, which appeared in the March 1982 edition of The Atlantic Monthly:

"Consider a building with a few broken windows. If the windows are not repaired, the tendency is for vandals to break a few more windows. Eventually, they may even break into the building, and if it's unoccupied, perhaps become squatters or light fires inside.

Or consider a sidewalk. Some litter accumulates. Soon, more litter accumulates. Eventually, people even start leaving bags of trash from take-out restaurants there or breaking into cars."

very true juniper. a little by each of us will go a long way.

[Gary]

Which larger cities are you thinking of with less retail downtown? LA maybe, but what else? The only cities bigger than Houston are Chicago, NY, and LA right? Maybe LA has less downtown shopping options (I don't know LA well)

Jax, DT LA offers a bit more than does DT Houston. Their residential componant helps a bunch.

I see. Yeah, I've never been to Dallas so it's hard to say. This guy is from Guatamala. He has family in Dallas so he knows Dallas better than Houston, but he is here in Houston now doing an elective for his medical school at MD Anderson for a few months. That was his observation after being here for 3 weeks, but he could definitely have uptown/downtown confused in Dallas. He said one of Dallas's biggest shopping centers was downtown and that there are "more buildings" and more people around during the day and weekend. I know most of that isn't accurate, and I don't want to start a flame war here. That's just the general idea that a tourist gets after visiting both cities and not knowing either particularly well.A woman where I work also told me that Dallas's downtown is so much bigger than Houston's. I tried to tell her that was not true (from what I've heard), but who am I to argue when I've never been to Dallas? She said the buildings might not be as tall but there's a larger "downtown" area, or something like that. She was commenting on a photo of Houston's skyline from the air. I don't know if she meant it was less dense, or what.

DT Dallas is a ghost town with the exception of the West End. Also Dt Houston is sitting at over 40 million sq feet of office space, and Dt Dallas is sitting at just under 30 million, your woman friend hasn't a clue as to what she's talking about. By the way... Houston's class A office space alone (29 million) equals that of DT Dallas in total.

[Jax]

I figured as much. I just thought it was interesting that people have such a perception of Houston Vs. Dallas. And I thought maybe he was right that downtown retail was working better there. I guess not.

Edited September 10, 2007 by Jax

[Daniepwils]

DT Dallas isn't very nice (West End is the exception). Even the Dallas tunnel system isn't very good -- I even think at one time they tried to get the businesses in the tunnels to move up to the steet. Not sure what happened.

Dallas does have zoning, which I like alot! to bad we don't!

Houston's tunnel system is something people often forget about. I think they are great due to our weather at times, but I also think they hinder the way people think of downtown Houston (remind yourself, we are not a major tourist destination city!)

Edited September 10, 2007 by Daniepwils

[dalparadise]

DT LA and DT Houston are really quite similar in a lot of ways. Both are very much business centers with very few residents. LA has enjoyed a small renaissance in their DT area around Staples Center, with a lot of dense, mixed use residential/retail popping up around the arena. It's not unlike what's going on in Midtown Houston, just on a larger, denser scale. It's also happening much faster in LA. Figueroa St., which fronts Staples Center is developing very nicely and connects the USC campus, the Staples Center area and the heart of Downtown. Everyone knows that USC in in the middle of a ghetto, and that southwestern DT LA was always fairly poor and underdeveloped, much like Midtown was to Houston.

I'd say, just as in many cases, we can look to LA for how we will one day develop, as we seem to follow in that city's footsteps on a smaller scale. One point should be noted, though, LA has not done much to develop DT retail or street life in the DT area proper. It's deader than dead seven nights per week.

As far as large cities with more vibrant DT pedestrian and retail environments, there are plenty of larger and smaller metro areas that fit the bill -- San Francisco, Baltimore, Philadelphia, Boston, Denver, Seattle, Cincinnati and others. DT Houston is more vibrant than, say, Dallas, Salt Lake City, Detroit or Phoenix, but of those, only Dallas seems to constantly crow about how Manhattanized it is.

[713 To 214]

Here we go again.

[713 To 214]

Even in a thread devoted to Houston's diminishing DT nightlife as well as its associated crime, "thug life," and problem attracting residents, the sister city to the north somehow becomes, not only a topic of conversation, but the whipping boy. Dallas must be doing something right. Some people can't have a discussion without bringing her up. She must be the yardstick by which some people measure Houston by.

[Guest Marty]

Even in a thread devoted to Houston's diminishing DT nightlife as well as its associated crime, "thug life," and problem attracting residents, the sister city to the north somehow becomes, not only a topic of conversation, but the whipping boy. Dallas must be doing something right. Some people can't have a discussion without bringing her up. She must be the yardstick by which some people measure Houston by.

I think Dal is right on the mark, but I could care less about Dallas vs Houston topics.

moving on ...

[Gary]

DT LA and DT Houston are really quite similar in a lot of ways. Both are very much business centers with very few residents. LA has enjoyed a small renaissance in their DT area around Staples Center, with a lot of dense, mixed use residential/retail popping up around the arena. It's not unlike what's going on in Midtown Houston, just on a larger, denser scale. It's also happening much faster in LA. Figueroa St., which fronts Staples Center is developing very nicely and connects the USC campus, the Staples Center area and the heart of Downtown. Everyone knows that USC in in the middle of a ghetto, and that southwestern DT LA was always fairly poor and underdeveloped, much like Midtown was to Houston.I'd say, just as in many cases, we can look to LA for how we will one day develop, as we seem to follow in that city's footsteps on a smaller scale. One point should be noted, though, LA has not done much to develop DT retail or street life in the DT area proper. It's deader than dead seven nights per week.

Yeah, the true CBD of LA has always been dead, and still is, but as you stated (I was refering to earlier) there has been a large move of the residential componant around SW downtown, and into the USC area which has dramatically changed the landscape. You mention Figueroa St, and i can tell you first hand (was there two months ago) that much of what's going up is first rate, with much of the development right up to the street. Very, very cool. I wish Midtown Houston would take a few pages from LA's book.

Even in a thread devoted to Houston's diminishing DT nightlife as well as its associated crime, "thug life," and problem attracting residents, the sister city to the north somehow becomes, not only a topic of conversation, but the whipping boy. Dallas must be doing something right. Some people can't have a discussion without bringing her up. She must be the yardstick by which some people measure Houston by.

Please dude. We were not bashing your city. We were refering to Jax post which directly related to this thread, and he just happened to mention Dallas. Grow some thicker skin.

[dalparadise]

Well, I was not trying to fuel a Dallas vs. Houston contest, but rather to answer some of the points made above in the thread -- which included Dallas comparisons that, to me, sounded a little off. The main comparison I was addressing was the one made to Los Angeles.

Dallas was mentioned in a group of cities compared to Houston. It was also mentioned in several posts about its "Times Square" vibrancy and larger, busier downtown.

Dallas and Houston are almost identical in many ways, but downtown life is not one of them. Even a declining Downtown Houston has tons more going on. That's not meant to spark debate. I don't really think it's debatable at all.

[Jax]

Sorry for sparking the Houston Vs. Dallas debate.

I just mentioned what my friend said with the intent of finding out how much of it was true. The interesting part for me is that Dallas is perceived as having a more vibrant downtown by a lot of tourist type people who just visit the city once or twice.

[Guest Marty]

Sorry for sparking the Houston Vs. Dallas debate.

I just mentioned what my friend said with the intent of finding out how much of it was true. The interesting part for me is that Dallas is perceived as having a more vibrant downtown by a lot of tourist type people who just visit the city once or twice.

Don't worry about it, you did not do anything wrong.

Shouldn't you be concentrating on the photo contest.

Edited September 11, 2007 by Marty

[dalparadise]

Sorry for sparking the Houston Vs. Dallas debate.

I just mentioned what my friend said with the intent of finding out how much of it was true. The interesting part for me is that Dallas is perceived as having a more vibrant downtown by a lot of tourist type people who just visit the city once or twice.

I think Downtown Dallas is cleaner at the street level and that DART is much better integrated into the Downtown infrastructure, meaning it causes less of a disruption of vehicular or pedestrian flow through Downtown. I think the historic buildings are better preserved and presented in DT Dallas, as well. I believe the perception of this, to an outsider, might represent a more vibrant downtown during the workday.

After 5:00pm, though, DT Dallas looks like a neutron bomb hit it. The West End is a ghost town. The southeast portion running into Deep Ellum is a haven for junkies and thugs. The central part is all offices and closed lunch spots. DEAD.

The northern portion, leading into Uptown and Victory and making up the new Arts District is showing a lot of promise, though. It's looking nice and is something to be proud of. I just think the comparisons to the vibrancy of Times Square or even Downtown Houston are very premature.

[Subdude]

This topic really isn't meant to be about Dallas.

[Vertigo58]

Maybe I should fan the flame by saying how much better San Francisco is compared to LA, Yaaaahhh!

They fight/bicker just as much as Hou and Dallas! Yeoeeeee! Run! lol

Now back to ORIGINAL topic children!

[Daniepwils]

I do like the way Dallas keeps their major freeways kept up (trash and plants, etc.). Houston for the main part does not (remember when the superbowl was coming, and the city halfassed put up plants, shrubs and trees along the freeways, and didn't really keep up with them -- looked very bad!)

You would think we would have nice landscaped areas around our highways, that is probably the first area that people will see Houston. Also DART is pretty amazing -- I really envy Dallas for the DART. Not to mention the zoning in Dallas, which keeps property values high (normally).

OK the real topic again...

Downtown Houston night life is dead or rather moving to other areas, as clubs always do! (Now The Flying Saucer and a few other "spots" are still packed every evening --but not the clubs) I am scared though about some restarurants that I hear have closed in the past two weeks. Mia Bella hang in there!

Edited September 11, 2007 by Daniepwils

[Jax]

Yeah the Flying Saucer is always packed. And the last few times I've been downtown (Saturdays) the clubs had lineups and there were generally a lot of people walking around. There is still a lot of empty space that needs to be used though. If downtown didn't look deserted to first time visitors who come at the wrong time, I think more people would visit downtown more often. Now that I brought my friends to the Saucer, they want to go back again this weekend. Before that, none of them ever considered returning to downtown after their first visit.

On another positive note, the last 3 times I visited downtown, I did not get harassed by a single bum!

(Yesterday at 6, last saturday night, and the saturday night before that).

Edited September 11, 2007 by Jax

[Daniepwils]

Now if they could get rid of the few that sleep on the tables near the Cookie place across from The Flying Saucer... lol, its always the same three or four.

There is one guy that has been down on main for the past 6 years. He is usually around CVS now. He is african american, usually wearing a cape and wind pants. The only words I have ever hear him say is "spare and change" "spare any change" "spare any change".

Every since I had a homeless guy lunge at me for my orange, I haven't given them anything off the street. Safer anyways to give through other means.

[sevfiv]

Downtown Houston night life is dead or rather moving to other areas, as clubs always do! (Now The Flying Saucer and a few other "spots" are still packed every evening --but not the clubs) I am scared though about some restarurants that I hear have closed in the past two weeks. Mia Bella hang in there!

that is the key - these clubs are transient, and the crowd fickle.

the mainstays are the few bars and restaurants that have been around for years, and newer ones that have a solid clientele and good business practice. i hope that the recent restaurant issue is a lone occurrence.

[musicman]

On another positive note, the last 3 times I visited downtown, I did not get harassed by a single bum!

(Yesterday at 6, last saturday night, and the saturday night before that).

unfortunately i did at a place that has never happened before, paulie's on westheimer

[Jax]

Now if they could get rid of the few that sleep on the tables near the Cookie place across from The Flying Saucer... lol, its always the same three or four.

There is one guy that has been down on main for the past 6 years. He is usually around CVS now. He is african american, usually wearing a cape and wind pants. The only words I have ever hear him say is "spare and change" "spare any change" "spare any change".

Every since I had a homeless guy lunge at me for my orange, I haven't given them anything off the street. Safer anyways to give through other means.

Haha yesterday I saw a guy cleaning those tables with some sort of mop like scrubbing device. Maybe that's the reason he had to clean them so thoroughly.

[Vertigo58]

I'll never forget the one poor guy that was a dead ringer for old Saint Nick. He would mill about talking to himself and suddenly drop his drawers in front of all the pedestrian traffic. We would all be at a table eating and here he comes and flashes everyone. It wasn't that easy trying to improvise or keep moving along while dining. I have mixed emotions when Christmas comes around now.

Edited September 11, 2007 by Vertigo58

[WesternGulf]

DT LA may not have your Starbucks, Sephora, Coldwater Creek, and Williams Sonoma type retail but the experience that is found on Broadway is overwhelming. There are a lot of historic buildings that need to be rennovated that house a lot of flea market type retail offerings that brings out the folks of East LA.

[Jax]

Wow, great photos. Those streets are sure crowded compared to downtown Houston!

[713 To 214]

Wow, great photos. Those streets are sure crowded compared to downtown Houston!

Because people LIVE down there and there's tons of retail!