Citizens National Bank At 402 Main St.

[Poppahop]

Instead of driving all the way to the Galleria, I'm sure people from Neartown/Montrose/Midtown/East End/heights would go downtown if retail actually existed downtown.

People from those neighborhoods rarely go to the Galleria. In the nine years I most recently lived in the Museum District, I went to the Galleria maybe twice, both times mainly just to take a walk. Just about everybody I am friends with feels the same. There's no real need to go there.

As for the shootings, wherever there are drunks plus guns, that's gonna happen.

DT is not Dodge City by any means, it's just that every shooting down there gets tons of attention. I am sure that the Club Next incident was not the only incident in H-Town that night.

[RedScare]

Just to be clear, this club is not in Downtown proper. It is in the warehouse district on the other side of 59.

[Jax]

The only place I know in the east end is "Warehouse Live" the music venue. Is that what you are talking about, or is there more to that part of town than I know?

I thought we were talking about Main Street and surrounding areas. At least that's what most people refer to when they mention clubs downtown. Is the other side of the 59 even "downtown"?

[Ethanra]

Is the other side of the 59 even "downtown"?

I think DT ends at 59, so no. As far as retail, I think it will work. Their is some, and even a department store that works DT. Their is more DT retail here then some other large city DT's that are close to us. To create a central area, like DT, for people to go shopping is going to be difficult, because their is plenty of other established options within a couple miles. Their is the village, River Oaks shopping center, highland village etc... Thies places not only have higher-end stuff but their is avrg. shopping there as well, for example the Gap... HP is the "kick in the butt" DT needs and I think DT will have its fair share of retail before we know it, but not as much as we would like because of the other popular areas that are close...

[musicman]

The bad news was that I got a $55 parking ticket for parking in an area where the no parking sign wasn't clearly visible. I saw a sign that said "metered parking 9-5" and figured it was okay since it was late. If I had gone to the meter, I would have seen the sign posted on the meter that said no parking. Apparently I wasn't the only one. The cop told me every 5 minutes another guy parks there and gets a ticket. And he said it wasn't his job to tell them not to park there, just to give out the tickets.

=(

how's that LRT workin for ya?

[Jax]

Which larger cities are you thinking of with less retail downtown? LA maybe, but what else? The only cities bigger than Houston are Chicago, NY, and LA right? Maybe LA has less downtown shopping options (I don't know LA well) but the other two definitely have more, as well as smaller cities like Austin.

A friend of mine told me yesterday that there is more to do in downtown Dallas than Houston, but I've never been there myself to compare. He said the shopping options downtown were good and that there were more people around in the day, while Houston had more people around at night (at least on Saturday night when we were there).

[Jax]

how's that LRT workin for ya?

Hahahaha!

I knew you were going to say that, musicman. I even started to write a little comment in my post explaining why I was not taking the light rail but then I thought, nah, nobody is really going to ask that.

if you must know every little detail, I was in the heights at an art gallery opening (three of my photos are at the Houstonist photo show at the M2 Gallery), and I was driving with a bunch of my grad student friends (only one of them has a car). So rather than driving to my apartment and having my friends meet me there, and then walking to the light rail and taking the rail downtown, I just got him to follow me downtown and we parked and went to a bar. None of the people I was with had ever been downtown at night before. One of them had gone during the day and vowed there was no reason to ever return. I wanted to show them some of the places that I like downtown (Shay McElroys, Flying Saucer) that are not as empty as main street square on a sunday morning. They were all impressed.

So no, the LRT is not working well for me when I go to the Heights, or when I travel between the Heights and Downtown. That's why I have a car. If the rail ran between the Heights and Downtown, there would have been no question - I would have taken it. Everybody decided at the end of the night to take the rail downtown next time, as long as we aren't going there from the Heights.

Do I really need to explain myself every time I mention that I drive somewhere? Don't you know Houston well enough to understand that the public transit isn't convenient in every part of the city? It only really works if I'm going between the Medical Center / Rice / Museum District and downtown. Hopefully in the future, I will be able to go more places without having to drive.

Edited September 10, 2007 by Jax

[musicman]

They already do this in places like Uptown and Meyerland (both a stone's throw away from Gulfton) so why not?

LOL.when the cotton exchange went ghetto (and the other club), the clientele also started hitting les givrals on congress. the owners of les givrals were opening in the evenings giving the downtown patrons another food option. well the new clientele started trashing the place nightly, throwing food, etc. they decided not to open at nights because of this.

Hahahaha!I knew you were going to say that, musicman. I even started to write a little comment in my post explaining why I was not taking the light rail but then I thought, nah, nobody is really going to ask that.Do I really need to explain myself every time I mention that I drive somewhere?

of course not. i like to joke. no harm intended. we looked for you at the show sat but we went in and left quickly.

[Ethanra]

Which larger cities are you thinking of with less retail downtown? LA maybe, but what else? The only cities bigger than Houston are Chicago, NY, and LA right? Maybe LA has less downtown shopping options (I don't know LA well) but the other two definitely have more, as well as smaller cities like Austin.

A friend of mine told me yesterday that there is more to do in downtown Dallas than Houston, but I've never been there myself to compare. He said the shopping options downtown were good and that there were more people around in the day, while Houston had more people around at night (at least on Saturday night when we were there).

I was meaning Dallas. I didn't want to sart a my **** is bigger then yours conversation by saying what city. I've been to Dallas hundreds of times and DT Dallas is very limited. I'm sure your friend and others very conviently would like to include Uptown in with DT Dallas. Also from what I have heard Atlanta DT is very limited as well, unless you would want to include Buckhead/Uptown in with Atlanta's DT... When I said larger cities, I did not mean larger then Houston, I meant a large city in general.

Edited September 10, 2007 by Ethanra

[Jax]

I see. Yeah, I've never been to Dallas so it's hard to say. This guy is from Guatamala. He has family in Dallas so he knows Dallas better than Houston, but he is here in Houston now doing an elective for his medical school at MD Anderson for a few months. That was his observation after being here for 3 weeks, but he could definitely have uptown/downtown confused in Dallas. He said one of Dallas's biggest shopping centers was downtown and that there are "more buildings" and more people around during the day and weekend. I know most of that isn't accurate, and I don't want to start a flame war here. That's just the general idea that a tourist gets after visiting both cities and not knowing either particularly well.

A woman where I work also told me that Dallas's downtown is so much bigger than Houston's. I tried to tell her that was not true (from what I've heard), but who am I to argue when I've never been to Dallas? She said the buildings might not be as tall but there's a larger "downtown" area, or something like that. She was commenting on a photo of Houston's skyline from the air. I don't know if she meant it was less dense, or what.

[Vertigo58]

That's why I stopped going to clubs and bars, Just making eye contact with someone can get you shot these days.

and now that shooting at Club Next (I think its called) in warehouse district this past weekend will put another black eye on the DT image.

ABC 13 interviewed 2 inept jerks way over in Midtown about the incident if that makes any sense? You could hardly make out what they were saying but reporter was just clueless of the club scene. Why would they compare MT to Warehouse area is beyond me. It was a confrontation of some guy & another at the bar. Could have been over drugs, a girl, who knows. The media fuels the disdane for heading DT period. Quote un quote.

(read the Chron, I didnt make this up) Love is in the air!

[King Owl]

I have an office in DT Houston and one in DT Dallas. I can say with complete confidence that DT Houston blows the pants off DT Dallas. DT Dallas lacks dining options, retail options, there are many fewer buildings, and it's dead at night. I believe there are more hotels there than in DT Houston, however. DT Houston has so much more to offer, such as the Toyota Center, Park Shops, MMP, plenty of restaurants, etc. Now, if you include uptown Dallas, it's another story, but uptown Dallas is not walkable from DT Dallas and I don't see why you would include that area in the discussion.

[The New Juniper]

Theory adopted by Giuliani in NY. We could learn here in Houston......

Article titled Broken Windows by James Q. Wilson and George L. Kelling, which appeared in the March 1982 edition of The Atlantic Monthly:

"Consider a building with a few broken windows. If the windows are not repaired, the tendency is for vandals to break a few more windows. Eventually, they may even break into the building, and if it's unoccupied, perhaps become squatters or light fires inside.

Or consider a sidewalk. Some litter accumulates. Soon, more litter accumulates. Eventually, people even start leaving bags of trash from take-out restaurants there or breaking into cars."

[musicman]

Theory adopted by Giuliani in NY. We could learn here in Houston......

Article titled Broken Windows by James Q. Wilson and George L. Kelling, which appeared in the March 1982 edition of The Atlantic Monthly:

"Consider a building with a few broken windows. If the windows are not repaired, the tendency is for vandals to break a few more windows. Eventually, they may even break into the building, and if it's unoccupied, perhaps become squatters or light fires inside.

Or consider a sidewalk. Some litter accumulates. Soon, more litter accumulates. Eventually, people even start leaving bags of trash from take-out restaurants there or breaking into cars."

very true juniper. a little by each of us will go a long way.

[Gary]

Which larger cities are you thinking of with less retail downtown? LA maybe, but what else? The only cities bigger than Houston are Chicago, NY, and LA right? Maybe LA has less downtown shopping options (I don't know LA well)

Jax, DT LA offers a bit more than does DT Houston. Their residential componant helps a bunch.

I see. Yeah, I've never been to Dallas so it's hard to say. This guy is from Guatamala. He has family in Dallas so he knows Dallas better than Houston, but he is here in Houston now doing an elective for his medical school at MD Anderson for a few months. That was his observation after being here for 3 weeks, but he could definitely have uptown/downtown confused in Dallas. He said one of Dallas's biggest shopping centers was downtown and that there are "more buildings" and more people around during the day and weekend. I know most of that isn't accurate, and I don't want to start a flame war here. That's just the general idea that a tourist gets after visiting both cities and not knowing either particularly well.A woman where I work also told me that Dallas's downtown is so much bigger than Houston's. I tried to tell her that was not true (from what I've heard), but who am I to argue when I've never been to Dallas? She said the buildings might not be as tall but there's a larger "downtown" area, or something like that. She was commenting on a photo of Houston's skyline from the air. I don't know if she meant it was less dense, or what.

DT Dallas is a ghost town with the exception of the West End. Also Dt Houston is sitting at over 40 million sq feet of office space, and Dt Dallas is sitting at just under 30 million, your woman friend hasn't a clue as to what she's talking about. By the way... Houston's class A office space alone (29 million) equals that of DT Dallas in total.

[Jax]

I figured as much. I just thought it was interesting that people have such a perception of Houston Vs. Dallas. And I thought maybe he was right that downtown retail was working better there. I guess not.

Edited September 10, 2007 by Jax

[Daniepwils]

DT Dallas isn't very nice (West End is the exception). Even the Dallas tunnel system isn't very good -- I even think at one time they tried to get the businesses in the tunnels to move up to the steet. Not sure what happened.

Dallas does have zoning, which I like alot! to bad we don't!

Houston's tunnel system is something people often forget about. I think they are great due to our weather at times, but I also think they hinder the way people think of downtown Houston (remind yourself, we are not a major tourist destination city!)

Edited September 10, 2007 by Daniepwils

[dalparadise]

DT LA and DT Houston are really quite similar in a lot of ways. Both are very much business centers with very few residents. LA has enjoyed a small renaissance in their DT area around Staples Center, with a lot of dense, mixed use residential/retail popping up around the arena. It's not unlike what's going on in Midtown Houston, just on a larger, denser scale. It's also happening much faster in LA. Figueroa St., which fronts Staples Center is developing very nicely and connects the USC campus, the Staples Center area and the heart of Downtown. Everyone knows that USC in in the middle of a ghetto, and that southwestern DT LA was always fairly poor and underdeveloped, much like Midtown was to Houston.

I'd say, just as in many cases, we can look to LA for how we will one day develop, as we seem to follow in that city's footsteps on a smaller scale. One point should be noted, though, LA has not done much to develop DT retail or street life in the DT area proper. It's deader than dead seven nights per week.

As far as large cities with more vibrant DT pedestrian and retail environments, there are plenty of larger and smaller metro areas that fit the bill -- San Francisco, Baltimore, Philadelphia, Boston, Denver, Seattle, Cincinnati and others. DT Houston is more vibrant than, say, Dallas, Salt Lake City, Detroit or Phoenix, but of those, only Dallas seems to constantly crow about how Manhattanized it is.

[713 To 214]

Here we go again.

[713 To 214]

Even in a thread devoted to Houston's diminishing DT nightlife as well as its associated crime, "thug life," and problem attracting residents, the sister city to the north somehow becomes, not only a topic of conversation, but the whipping boy. Dallas must be doing something right. Some people can't have a discussion without bringing her up. She must be the yardstick by which some people measure Houston by.

[Guest Marty]

Even in a thread devoted to Houston's diminishing DT nightlife as well as its associated crime, "thug life," and problem attracting residents, the sister city to the north somehow becomes, not only a topic of conversation, but the whipping boy. Dallas must be doing something right. Some people can't have a discussion without bringing her up. She must be the yardstick by which some people measure Houston by.

I think Dal is right on the mark, but I could care less about Dallas vs Houston topics.

moving on ...

[Gary]

DT LA and DT Houston are really quite similar in a lot of ways. Both are very much business centers with very few residents. LA has enjoyed a small renaissance in their DT area around Staples Center, with a lot of dense, mixed use residential/retail popping up around the arena. It's not unlike what's going on in Midtown Houston, just on a larger, denser scale. It's also happening much faster in LA. Figueroa St., which fronts Staples Center is developing very nicely and connects the USC campus, the Staples Center area and the heart of Downtown. Everyone knows that USC in in the middle of a ghetto, and that southwestern DT LA was always fairly poor and underdeveloped, much like Midtown was to Houston.I'd say, just as in many cases, we can look to LA for how we will one day develop, as we seem to follow in that city's footsteps on a smaller scale. One point should be noted, though, LA has not done much to develop DT retail or street life in the DT area proper. It's deader than dead seven nights per week.

Yeah, the true CBD of LA has always been dead, and still is, but as you stated (I was refering to earlier) there has been a large move of the residential componant around SW downtown, and into the USC area which has dramatically changed the landscape. You mention Figueroa St, and i can tell you first hand (was there two months ago) that much of what's going up is first rate, with much of the development right up to the street. Very, very cool. I wish Midtown Houston would take a few pages from LA's book.

Even in a thread devoted to Houston's diminishing DT nightlife as well as its associated crime, "thug life," and problem attracting residents, the sister city to the north somehow becomes, not only a topic of conversation, but the whipping boy. Dallas must be doing something right. Some people can't have a discussion without bringing her up. She must be the yardstick by which some people measure Houston by.

Please dude. We were not bashing your city. We were refering to Jax post which directly related to this thread, and he just happened to mention Dallas. Grow some thicker skin.

[dalparadise]

Well, I was not trying to fuel a Dallas vs. Houston contest, but rather to answer some of the points made above in the thread -- which included Dallas comparisons that, to me, sounded a little off. The main comparison I was addressing was the one made to Los Angeles.

Dallas was mentioned in a group of cities compared to Houston. It was also mentioned in several posts about its "Times Square" vibrancy and larger, busier downtown.

Dallas and Houston are almost identical in many ways, but downtown life is not one of them. Even a declining Downtown Houston has tons more going on. That's not meant to spark debate. I don't really think it's debatable at all.

[Jax]

Sorry for sparking the Houston Vs. Dallas debate.

I just mentioned what my friend said with the intent of finding out how much of it was true. The interesting part for me is that Dallas is perceived as having a more vibrant downtown by a lot of tourist type people who just visit the city once or twice.

[Guest Marty]

Sorry for sparking the Houston Vs. Dallas debate.

I just mentioned what my friend said with the intent of finding out how much of it was true. The interesting part for me is that Dallas is perceived as having a more vibrant downtown by a lot of tourist type people who just visit the city once or twice.

Don't worry about it, you did not do anything wrong.

Shouldn't you be concentrating on the photo contest.

Edited September 11, 2007 by Marty

[dalparadise]

Sorry for sparking the Houston Vs. Dallas debate.

I just mentioned what my friend said with the intent of finding out how much of it was true. The interesting part for me is that Dallas is perceived as having a more vibrant downtown by a lot of tourist type people who just visit the city once or twice.

I think Downtown Dallas is cleaner at the street level and that DART is much better integrated into the Downtown infrastructure, meaning it causes less of a disruption of vehicular or pedestrian flow through Downtown. I think the historic buildings are better preserved and presented in DT Dallas, as well. I believe the perception of this, to an outsider, might represent a more vibrant downtown during the workday.

After 5:00pm, though, DT Dallas looks like a neutron bomb hit it. The West End is a ghost town. The southeast portion running into Deep Ellum is a haven for junkies and thugs. The central part is all offices and closed lunch spots. DEAD.

The northern portion, leading into Uptown and Victory and making up the new Arts District is showing a lot of promise, though. It's looking nice and is something to be proud of. I just think the comparisons to the vibrancy of Times Square or even Downtown Houston are very premature.

[Subdude]

This topic really isn't meant to be about Dallas.

[Vertigo58]

Maybe I should fan the flame by saying how much better San Francisco is compared to LA, Yaaaahhh!

They fight/bicker just as much as Hou and Dallas! Yeoeeeee! Run! lol

Now back to ORIGINAL topic children!

[Daniepwils]

I do like the way Dallas keeps their major freeways kept up (trash and plants, etc.). Houston for the main part does not (remember when the superbowl was coming, and the city halfassed put up plants, shrubs and trees along the freeways, and didn't really keep up with them -- looked very bad!)

You would think we would have nice landscaped areas around our highways, that is probably the first area that people will see Houston. Also DART is pretty amazing -- I really envy Dallas for the DART. Not to mention the zoning in Dallas, which keeps property values high (normally).

OK the real topic again...

Downtown Houston night life is dead or rather moving to other areas, as clubs always do! (Now The Flying Saucer and a few other "spots" are still packed every evening --but not the clubs) I am scared though about some restarurants that I hear have closed in the past two weeks. Mia Bella hang in there!

Edited September 11, 2007 by Daniepwils

[Jax]

Yeah the Flying Saucer is always packed. And the last few times I've been downtown (Saturdays) the clubs had lineups and there were generally a lot of people walking around. There is still a lot of empty space that needs to be used though. If downtown didn't look deserted to first time visitors who come at the wrong time, I think more people would visit downtown more often. Now that I brought my friends to the Saucer, they want to go back again this weekend. Before that, none of them ever considered returning to downtown after their first visit.

On another positive note, the last 3 times I visited downtown, I did not get harassed by a single bum!

(Yesterday at 6, last saturday night, and the saturday night before that).

Edited September 11, 2007 by Jax