METRORail Uptown Line

[citykid09]

I see how the people on the left of the street get in, but how about the people on the right of the street. I don't see an entrance. Also What is that in the median at street level? Maybe its something to let light in?

[ricco67]

a dream for some...

http://www.theldnet....?project=Uptown Galleria

The diagram doesn't show the flood waters cascading into the tunnel every time we get a good downpour.

Well, considering this is a rough sketch, you would have figured he would have allowed for drainage and pipes for utilities under the tracks.

But whatever.

[IronTiger]

I think it would be cool if it was below-ground. Less above-ground demolition, that's for sure...

On the flip side, I watched an Extreme Engineering episode on the Big Dig, in which it ran hopelessly overbudget.

[VelvetJ]

On the flip side, I watched an Extreme Engineering episode on the Big Dig, in which it ran hopelessly overbudget.

And therein lies your problem young man. Even if it didn't go a cent overbudget, I think it still would definitely be deemed "too expensive" for current day Houston. And speaking of overbudget, could it really be THAT much more overbudget than the Katy Freeway Project? For the amount that it went overbudget, I was actually surprised by the shortage of citywide outrage. Particularly from the vocal fiscal conservatives. Hmmmm.

I would love to see Post Oak look like that. It would be awesome if there were a direct underground link from the train station to the Galleria itself. I wonder if this alternative really is viable?

With all of the mess that ultimately came with the Big Dig, I wonder if the citizens of Boston as a whole feel it was worth it? Don't we have a part-time Bostonian on this board somewhere?

Edited November 18, 2009 by VelvetJ

[RedScare]

I would love to see Post Oak look like that.

If it were a subway, wouldn't Post Oak look exactly the same as it does currently? Isn't that the point of a subway, that it cannot be seen at street level?

I think it would be cool if it was below-ground. Less above-ground demolition, that's for sure...

If it were a cut and cover operation, the demolition would be epic. And, the design depicted in the drawing would likely be a cut and cover operation.

Edited November 18, 2009 by RedScare

[TheNiche]

If it were a cut and cover operation, the demolition would be epic. And, the design depicted in the drawing would likely be a cut and cover operation.

Aw come on, Red. Allow them their fantasy of comparing a simple tunnel under Post Oak to Boston's Big Dig. You know the end-product will only be 'cool' and worthy of public investment if it's overcomplicated and by some measure Yankified.

[RedScare]

Aw come on, Red. Allow them their fantasy of comparing a simple tunnel under Post Oak to Boston's Big Dig. You know the end-product will only be 'cool' and worthy of public investment if it's overcomplicated and by some measure Yankified.

You're right. I should encourage the underground playground fantasies. But, that brings up another question. Why do the biggest proponents of subterranean transit also happen to be the biggest critics of the downtown tunnels? If underground tunnels are cool, shouldn't ALL underground tunnels be considered cool?

[TheNiche]

If underground tunnels are cool, shouldn't ALL underground tunnels be considered cool?

No. You should know by now that the grass is always greener in Manhattan...even when it isn't, it still is. Manhattan has subways and few or no pedestrian tunnels, so that is the one-size-fits-all universal model for Houston's future.

Edited November 18, 2009 by TheNiche

[JamesL]

Hate to rain on any parades, but:

September 2008

METRO is pleased to announce that engineering work on the Uptown Light-Rail Corridor is 65 percent complete! METRO President & CEO, Frank J. Wilson, recently presented project updates at the Galleria Chamber of Commerce Luncheon. Highlights are detailed in the latest Uptown Corridor METRORail News.

That was posted on the METRO Solutions website over a year ago, so engineering is likely 100% complete now. Y'all are a few years too late.

Not that there isn't any thing to criticize. Crossing Westheimer at grade seems awfully silly. And there are probably too many stations between Wesheimer and San Felipe. But these decisions have been made. If METRO gets its U-Line FFGA this winter like they hope, dirt will be flying on Uptown in a matter of months.

[JamesL]

Manhattan has subways and few or no pedestrian tunnels...

No pedestrian tunnels? LOL. Have you used the NYC subway?

I know you're facetiously paraphrasing someone else's argument, Niche. So that's directed at them.

Edited November 18, 2009 by JamesL

[RedScare]

No. You should know by now that the grass is always greener in Manhattan...even when it isn't, it still is. Manhattan has subways and few or no pedestrian tunnels, so that is the one-size-fits-all universal model for Houston's future.

Yes, I also just realized that since we do not have subways, we never get the serendipitous publicity generated when good samaritans rescue pregnant or drunk women who fall onto the tracks. In our lame system, a person who falls onto the tracks can simply walk away. No national news headline there.

[TheNiche]

No pedestrian tunnels? LOL. Have you used the NYC subway?

I know you're facetiously paraphrasing someone else's argument, Niche. So that's directed at them.

It's a little more complicated than that, actually. We were poking fun at the build-it-big, build-it-now, find-no-faults, ask-no-questions crowd that tends to compare anything that has ever been done in Houston to its Manhattan equivalent (the definitive case in point being the comparisons between Discovery Green and Central Park). The subculture buys into the notion that the old New England cities are models for urbanism, and that approach entails numerous subways and the banishment of extensive air-conditioned tunnel systems oriented towards pedestrian use like we have in downtown Houston...because the awful things create a streetscape that is virtually invisible to tourists, whose opinions are taken personally by this group of very whiny and oversensitive people.

As it so happens (from a Google search I just did), downtown Manhattan has its first tunnel system of this sort under construction right now as part of the WTC project. The plan calls for 50,000 square feet of enclosed retail and 3,000 feet of pedestrian tunnels. It looks like there are other short tunnels elsewhere in Manhattan, but most aren't air conditioned. Nothing there compares with our nearly seven miles of tunnels or approximately 360,000-square-feet of subterranian retail space...but it's nice to see that planners up there are finally coming around to our way of doing things. Perhaps it is a sign that Manhattan isn't cool anymore. The torch has no doubt been passed to Dubai or some such other fantastical realm.

Edited November 18, 2009 by TheNiche

[ricco67]

Having used the NYC subway system, I can attest that the things aren't cool, if anything, it was like a freakin' furnace down there!

The Pedestrian element that was mentioned there is different than what it is here: It's wider, but it only serves as little more than a conduit to allow people to go from one connection to another.

I think we should all simply make an index or FAQ as to WHY Houston doesn't have a subway yet, lord knows it would save us from typing the same things over and over.

[barracuda]

It's a little more complicated than that, actually. We were poking fun at the build-it-big, build-it-now, find-no-faults, ask-no-questions crowd that tends to compare anything that has ever been done in Houston to its Manhattan equivalent (the definitive case in point being the comparisons between Discovery Green and Central Park). The subculture buys into the notion that the old New England cities are models for urbanism, and that approach entails numerous subways and the banishment of extensive air-conditioned tunnel systems oriented towards pedestrian use like we have in downtown Houston...because the awful things create a streetscape that is virtually invisible to tourists, whose opinions are taken personally by this group of very whiny and oversensitive people.

As it so happens (from a Google search I just did), downtown Manhattan has its first tunnel system of this sort under construction right now as part of the WTC project. The plan calls for 50,000 square feet of enclosed retail and 3,000 feet of pedestrian tunnels. It looks like there are other short tunnels elsewhere in Manhattan, but most aren't air conditioned. Nothing there compares with our nearly seven miles of tunnels or approximately 360,000-square-feet of subterranian retail space...but it's nice to see that planners up there are finally coming around to our way of doing things. Perhaps it is a sign that Manhattan isn't cool anymore. The torch has no doubt been passed to Dubai or some such other fantastical realm.

The underground tunnel system isn't unique to Houston. Toronto's PATH system is more than double the size of ours, and the walkways are much wider and better designed, with access points to subways and a greater variety of retailers. Philadelphia has a more limited tunnel system, mostly to link subway access to some buildings, with some shops along the way. Yet both of those cities maintain a strong above-ground pedestrian environment. Houston should be able to expand on both fronts too, they're by no means mutually exclusive.

[TheNiche]

The underground tunnel system isn't unique to Houston. Toronto's PATH system is more than double the size of ours, and the walkways are much wider and better designed, with access points to subways and a greater variety of retailers. Philadelphia has a more limited tunnel system, mostly to link subway access to some buildings, with some shops along the way. Yet both of those cities maintain a strong above-ground pedestrian environment. Houston should be able to expand on both fronts too, they're by no means mutually exclusive.

I'm sorry, but I thought I'd just made a bunch of observations about a particular subculture of people...not the appropriateness of the downtown tunnel system.

Yours is not the debate I want to have right now.

[barracuda]

I'm sorry, but I thought I'd just made a bunch of observations about a particular subculture of people...not the appropriateness of the downtown tunnel system.

Yours is not the debate I want to have right now.

I used those two examples to illustrate that the Manhattan model is not necessarily the best for other cities that have street-level and tunnel systems. I thought I was agreeing with your earlier point.

[IronTiger]

I like subterranean pedestrian tunnels. I like subways. Whoever said we can't have both?

[AtticaFlinch]

I like subterranean pedestrian tunnels. I like subways. Whoever said we can't have both?

The Mole People said we can't have both.

They charge the city a sizable annual tax for every subterrean cubic meter dug.

And if we don't pay up... boy oh boy...

[IHB2]

is there an "I'm an idiot, please delete this post" editing function?

Edited December 15, 2009 by IHB2

[IHB2]

latest article in the West U Examiner from Mike Reed. the paper copy has a cool map showing the 23 traffic lights and 7 stations along the 1.7 miles of Post Oak from Richmond to 610. apparently that entire length of Post Oak will be widened. gonna be a nightmare during construction.

http://www.hcnonline.com/articles/2009/12/12/west_university_examiner/news/ex_postoak_traffic.txt

[citykid09]

latest article in the West U Examiner from Mike Reed. the paper copy has a cool map showing the 23 traffic lights and 7 stations along the 1.7 miles of Post Oak from Richmond to 610. apparently that entire length of Post Oak will be widened. gonna be a nightmare during construction.

http://www.hcnonline.com/articles/2009/12/12/west_university_examiner/news/ex_postoak_traffic.txt

With all the trouble that the line will cause to the street, wouldn't it make more since to elevate or go underground in this area even if the cost is higher? Sometimes you have to spend more money to get it right. Do it right the 1st time to keep from having to redo stuff. The first line down main should have been a big lesson learned on how not to do rail, but I guess METRO has more learning to do.

[AtticaFlinch]

With all the trouble that the line will cause to the street, wouldn't it make more since to elevate or go underground in this area even if the cost is higher? Sometimes you have to spend more money to get it right. Do it right the 1st time to keep from having to redo stuff. The first line down main should have been a big lesson learned on how not to do rail, but I guess METRO has more learning to do.

What was that lesson? In what way was the Main Street line done wrong?

[citykid09]

What was that lesson? In what way was the Main Street line done wrong?

It stops vehicle traffic! Pointblank end of story.

[kylejack]

It stops vehicle traffic! Pointblank end of story.

So do traffic jams caused by not enough people using transit. So it both stops and expedites vehicle traffic.

[brian0123]

It stops vehicle traffic! Pointblank end of story.

I live in Midtown and drive across these tracks daily. Sure, you wait for it... but not nearly as long as you would if it were just another cross street. The light turns red, the train crosses, and it turns green. Simple, easy, and I spend less time at the light than I would if it was a typical road.

[RedScare]

It stops vehicle traffic! Pointblank end of story.

Unlike digging huge holes to bury a subway. That wouldn't stop traffic at all.

[AtticaFlinch]

It stops vehicle traffic! Pointblank end of story.

So what? So do traffic lights for automobiles traveling in other directions. So do crosswalks for pedestrians. So do police cars responding to emergencies. So do firetrucks and ambulances (or, in your case, whambulances).

You know what else stops vehicle traffic? Expensive construction projects that, due to the sheer size of the undertaking, take years to complete. You think Galleria "vehicle traffic" is bad now? If you got your way, it'd remain crappy for at least the next decade.

[Highway6]

--> Crosses Main St either in Midtown or Downtown 8-10 times a week.

--> Maybe sees a train once a week... maybe.

[AtticaFlinch]

--> Crosses Main St either in Midtown or Downtown 8-10 times a week.

--> Maybe sees a train once a week... maybe.

Same here. I'm very rarely ever stopped by trains, and when I am, it's not as if it's a huge freight train with a hundred cars. The trains are only two cars long and take no time at all to pass. I really don't know where citykid gets the idea that these trains are a huge nuisance to drivers. As long as you don't actually drive down Main, they're barely noticeable.

[crunchtastic]

I wish there was more thought put into pedestrian mobility, and by that I don't mean pedestrian-to-train, but for people like me who prefer to park in one spot and have walking access to stuff within a quarter mile or so of the intersection. Especially at the intersection of Westheimer and Post Oak. How nice it would be to park, then have a ped skywalk on all sides of the intersection. That wasy I can buy shoes at DSW, go over to Barnes and Noble, over to Galleria 1/2, Neimans or Dillards, and back over to eat at the deli without delays at lights, and without risking life and limb at street level. Transit planners should focus more on people who are just walking, and not herd them through the same intersections as trains and cars.

Do the uptown line plans account for this, and I just didn't look closely enough?