METRORail Red Line

[Jay123]

1 hour ago, 004n063 said:

Nobody rides the BRT in uptown because it's a low-utility line with inadequate frequencies. It's window-dressing, through and through.

The University Line will be a much more impactful project.

 

The university line should’ve been built first and then the rest of the lines added after since it was supposed to be the backbone of the metrorapid system.

[004n063]

1 hour ago, Jay123 said:

The university line should’ve been built first and then the rest of the lines added after since it was supposed to be the backbone of the metrorapid system.

Assuming you're not talking about the red line, that's basically what is happening. As far as I am aware, the silver line was a pre-existing project that was essentially folded into the METRORapid branch of METRONext, pretty much as a branding move due to multiple silver line delays. 

Somebody please correct me if I am misunderstanding the history. 

[Jay123]

4 hours ago, 004n063 said:

Assuming you're not talking about the red line, that's basically what is happening. As far as I am aware, the silver line was a pre-existing project that was essentially folded into the METRORapid branch of METRONext, pretty much as a branding move due to multiple silver line delays. 

Somebody please correct me if I am misunderstanding the history. 

I am talking about the metrorapid system.The university line should've been the first one built before the silver line.It was going to be light rail but politics and money changed the plans. 

[citykid09]

On 11/18/2023 at 2:20 PM, Jay123 said:

I am talking about the metrorapid system.The university line should've been the first one built before the silver line.It was going to be light rail but politics and money changed the plans. 

Regardless, light rail as it is implemented in Houston (basically a trolly) is not adequate for a city with a population size of Houston. A rail system with its own right of way is what was needed. The red line is no better than BRT, sorry it’s the honest truth. Maybe when the olds/conservatives die off and the millennials/gen z take over Houston (and Texas cities all together) will finally get true mass transit. As of now Dallas is the only city that comes close. 

[004n063]

11 hours ago, citykid09 said:

Regardless, light rail as it is implemented in Houston (basically a trolly) is not adequate for a city with a population size of Houston. A rail system with its own right of way is what was needed. The red line is no better than BRT, sorry it’s the honest truth. Maybe when the olds/conservatives die off and the millennials/gen z take over Houston (and Texas cities all together) will finally get true mass transit. As of now Dallas is the only city that comes close. 

The red line on its own is not adequate for the city. But having ridden dozens of transit systems all over the world, I can say with confidence that the red line is a perfectly solid version of what it is: a light rail-tram hybrid. It is quick, reliable, has good frequencies for at-grade transit, and has generally good walkability around stations in its core.

The city needs a few proper (grade separated) metro lines and a few good grade-separated regional lines. But neither of those should be seen as replacements for the light rail, BRT, or standard bus networks. Extending the green and purple lines down Washington and either Dallas or Gray would still be a good idea. A red line-esque line on Westheimer, were it not a state FM, would still be a good idea.

[citykid09]

11 hours ago, 004n063 said:

The red line on its own is not adequate for the city. But having ridden dozens of transit systems all over the world, I can say with confidence that the red line is a perfectly solid version of what it is: a light rail-tram hybrid. It is quick, reliable, has good frequencies for at-grade transit, and has generally good walkability around stations in its core.

The city needs a few proper (grade separated) metro lines and a few good grade-separated regional lines. But neither of those should be seen as replacements for the light rail, BRT, or standard bus networks. Extending the green and purple lines down Washington and either Dallas or Gray would still be a good idea. A red line-esque line on Westheimer, were it not a state FM, would still be a good idea.

It’s frustrating when you see cities building these magnificent systems and all Houston goes for is world’s largest freeways and new toll roads that lead to a hour of copy and paste shopping centers featuring Ross, Marshals, nail shops and other junk. At least the city could build a subway that goes from downtown, Greenway Plaza, Uptown/galleria. Then it can come above ground on the way to Memorial City and City Center. A north south line that goes from Downtown to IAH and to Hobby. 
 

 

[august948]

On 11/19/2023 at 11:21 PM, citykid09 said:

Regardless, light rail as it is implemented in Houston (basically a trolly) is not adequate for a city with a population size of Houston. A rail system with its own right of way is what was needed. The red line is no better than BRT, sorry it’s the honest truth. Maybe when the olds/conservatives die off and the millennials/gen z take over Houston (and Texas cities all together) will finally get true mass transit. As of now Dallas is the only city that comes close. 

Millennials/Gen Z gonna change the world, eh?  We've heard that before...

...from the Boomers 🤣🤣🤣

tu fui ego eris

 

[august948]

On 11/20/2023 at 10:27 PM, citykid09 said:

It’s frustrating when you see cities building these magnificent systems and all Houston goes for is world’s largest freeways and new toll roads that lead to a hour of copy and paste shopping centers featuring Ross, Marshals, nail shops and other junk. At least the city could build a subway that goes from downtown, Greenway Plaza, Uptown/galleria. Then it can come above ground on the way to Memorial City and City Center. A north south line that goes from Downtown to IAH and to Hobby. 
 

 

Transit systems are products of the local constraints, whether they be geographical, economic, political or architectural.  In places like Houston with few constraints, freeway systems are always going to be the logical choice.

As for subways, given how high our water table is you might have to run it as a submarine line.

[004n063]

4 hours ago, august948 said:

Millennials/Gen Z gonna change the world, eh?  We've heard that before...

...from the Boomers 🤣🤣🤣

tu fui ego eris

 

That movement worked in the Netherlands. They were starting to head down the same post-WWII "road" we took. The protests in the 1970s helped them reverse course.

4 hours ago, august948 said:

Transit systems are products of the local constraints, whether they be geographical, economic, political or architectural.  In places like Houston with few constraints, freeway systems are always going to be the logical choice.

As for subways, given how high our water table is you might have to run it as a submarine line.

Freeways are not a rational choice for cities. They may have seemed that way at one point, but the fiscal record on highways and other autocentric infrastructure is pretty clear at this point.

[Ross]

6 hours ago, august948 said:

Millennials/Gen Z gonna change the world, eh?  We've heard that before...

...from the Boomers 🤣🤣🤣

tu fui ego eris

 

That's from London in 1973. Earls Court was demolished a few years ago and the site is being redeveloped.

London has good public transport because the core was built over 100 years ago. The Metropolitan Line opened in 1863, and was built using cut and cover, which is hugely disruptive.

[august948]

3 hours ago, Ross said:

That's from London in 1973. Earls Court was demolished a few years ago and the site is being redeveloped.

London has good public transport because the core was built over 100 years ago. The Metropolitan Line opened in 1863, and was built using cut and cover, which is hugely disruptive.

How's the water table in central London?

[august948]

4 hours ago, 004n063 said:

That movement worked in the Netherlands. They were starting to head down the same post-WWII "road" we took. The protests in the 1970s helped them reverse course.

Freeways are not a rational choice for cities. They may have seemed that way at one point, but the fiscal record on highways and other autocentric infrastructure is pretty clear at this point.

 

Does the fiscal record you're referring to take into account all the economic activity engendered by a road system?  Is there a study that compares the economic impact of maximum flexibility of movement vs constrained?

It's hard to beat a packet system for maximum flexibility.  Like I said, transit system choices are a product of local constraints.  The Netherlands has constraints that don't exist here, so in that light point-to-point fixed transit may have been their better option.

[Ross]

1 hour ago, august948 said:

How's the water table in central London?

It can be as high as 9 feet below ground level, but is usually lower. The newer underground lines are typically bored through a clay formation that's impervious to water. Here's an article on underground water in London https://www.geolsoc.org.uk/Geoscientist/Archive/May-2013/Troubled-waters

One advantage London has over Houston is that there have never been any oil wells drilled in London. There is a fairly high risk of hitting an unknown abandoned oil well bore here, depending on which part of town you are under.

[004n063]

1 hour ago, august948 said:

 

Does the fiscal record you're referring to take into account all the economic activity engendered by a road system?  Is there a study that compares the economic impact of maximum flexibility of movement vs constrained?

It's hard to beat a packet system for maximum flexibility.  Like I said, transit system choices are a product of local constraints.  The Netherlands has constraints that don't exist here, so in that light point-to-point fixed transit may have been their better option.

The externalities game is less favorable to autocentricity than you think.

[EllenOlenska]

I'll just throw this in there: they built the Washburn Tunnel, show someone should know how to bore holes near (in) water. 

Edited November 22, 2023 by EllenOlenska

[Ross]

21 minutes ago, EllenOlenska said:

I'll just throw this in there: they built the Washburn Tunnel, show someone should know how to bore holes near (in) water. 

The Washburn Tunnel wasn't bored. The tubes were built on land then dropped into deep trenches dredged across the Ship Channel. That's the same way the Baytown Tunnel was built.

[august948]

2 hours ago, Ross said:

It can be as high as 9 feet below ground level, but is usually lower. The newer underground lines are typically bored through a clay formation that's impervious to water. Here's an article on underground water in London https://www.geolsoc.org.uk/Geoscientist/Archive/May-2013/Troubled-waters

One advantage London has over Houston is that there have never been any oil wells drilled in London. There is a fairly high risk of hitting an unknown abandoned oil well bore here, depending on which part of town you are under.

My understanding has been that subways aren't feasible here due to the high water table combined with shifting clay soil and our frequent flood events.  Hadn't even considered the likelihood of abandoned well bores.

1 hour ago, 004n063 said:

The externalities game is less favorable to autocentricity than you think.

Like the constraints, or lack thereof, I'm sure that varies widely from locale to locale.

[Ross]

16 hours ago, august948 said:

My understanding has been that subways aren't feasible here due to the high water table combined with shifting clay soil and our frequent flood events.  Hadn't even considered the likelihood of abandoned well bores.

Like the constraints, or lack thereof, I'm sure that varies widely from locale to locale.

Dealing with water intrusion is an engineering issue. There are areas where the London tunnels have to deal with water, and they seem successful. The flooding issues there are from water coming in from ground level during heavy rain or when weather and tides work to raise the level of the Thames high enough to put water in station and tunnel entrances. The older bored tunnels in London use cast iron rings bolted together to line the tunnel. The newer ones use concrete. The cut and cover tunnels are supported by brick walls and iron beams across the top, but there are also many open areas where there's no need for street crossings. London hasn't had a new cut and cover line built in over a century due to the disruption and land cost.

[004n063]

Neither cut-and-cover nor boring makes much sense in Houston, not because of the engineering challenges but because of a) the cost exceeding at least the next twenty years of demand, and b) the city already has enormous amounts of right-of-way at its disposal.

Two lanes of a decent chunk of Fannin have been closed for a year for the water main project, and traffic has been fine. Would we need more than two lanes' worth of real estate to construct an elevated track? 

Elevated works okay in Chicago. The new elevated line in Montréal has been very successful. But it's hard to think of any city with a stronger case for elevated than Houston. 

[citykid09]

On 11/23/2023 at 10:12 AM, 004n063 said:

Neither cut-and-cover nor boring makes much sense in Houston, not because of the engineering challenges but because of a) the cost exceeding at least the next twenty years of demand, and b) the city already has enormous amounts of right-of-way at its disposal.

Two lanes of a decent chunk of Fannin have been closed for a year for the water main project, and traffic has been fine. Would we need more than two lanes' worth of real estate to construct an elevated track? 

Elevated works okay in Chicago. The new elevated line in Montréal has been very successful. But it's hard to think of any city with a stronger case for elevated than Houston. 

I can see elevated, but I think within the loop and the uptown area should be underground. I could see elevated rail in the Memorial City Area, Westchase, Energy Corridor, etc. 

[004n063]

14 minutes ago, citykid09 said:

I can see elevated, but I think within the loop and the uptown area should be underground.

Why? It seems to me that a lot of the main issues with elevated rail wouldn't apply on Houston's major corridors - no (required) tight turns, no narrow streets. 

You'd get some train noise, but Chicagoans and East Enders get used to it, so I figure so can the rest of us. Plus you'd potentially get a ton of shade in the bargain.

I think it'd make sense for an east-west el to go underneath 610, and probably tunnel under most other highway crossings while we're at it. And run at surface grade wherever feasible.

But underground will always be much more expensive than above ground. And I just don't see what problem with elevated rail would justify such a massive increase in price tag.

[BeerNut]

Also with elevated there is the possibility of travel across town after heavy rain events.

[hindesky]

Got this email this afternoon.

Web page link and Learn more.

https://www.ridemetro.org/about/metronext/metrorapid/metrorapid-university-corridor-project

[hindesky]

METRO Northline Transit Center parking garage.

Architect - https://www.sc-arch.com/work/metro-northline-transit-center/

Edited December 13, 2023 by hindesky

[BeerNut]

Needs housing and retail.  

[004n063]

17 hours ago, BeerNut said:

Needs housing and retail.  

I haven't seen site plans - is there anything (e.g. big METRO-owned parking lots) preventing housing and retail from springing up organically?

[JClark54]

Unsure if this is the most appropriate locale for the following, but it appears to be the most oft-used thread for METRORail information and discussion. At this week's meeting, Harris County Commissioners voted to amend the Gulf Coast Rail District concurrent ordinance. Per the amendment, METRO would get a full voting seat on the GCRD board. 

The meeting minutes haven't yet been posted, but you can watch the meeting here: https://harriscountytx.new.swagit.com/videos/291799

This is worth noting because the Texas Transportation Code signed by Gov. Greg Abbott on Nov. 14 states previously freight rail-centric entities like the GCRD can exercise powers as intermunicipal commuter rail districts and make decisions about commuter rail facilities, passenger rail services, and intercity rail services

Harris County's  decision doesn't mean METRO will become a voting board member, but it's the first domino to fall. Fort Bend, Galveston, Harris, Montgomery, and Waller counties as well as the city of Houston are all GRCD members and must vote. To my knowledge, Montgomery County is the only other entity to have voted, and it decided against adding METRO to the board. 

If you want to dive deeper, here's the 2023 transportation code's amended language on freight rail district powers: https://statutes.capitol.texas.gov/Docs/TN/pdf/TN.171.pdf

Edited December 22, 2023 by JClark54

[Some one]

So I've been looking into this and apparently, the US 90A and Westpark corridors' studies are ongoing. Granted, the plan isn't necessarily for commuter rail anymore, as they're exploring alternative options such as light rail or BRT, and it's not even a guarantee that this will advance past the studies. But it's interesting to see how they'll move forward with it.

ETA: The Westpark corridor is likely to become an extension of the future University BRT into Fulshear. If this does go through then the Big BRT is about to get even bigger

Edited December 23, 2023 by Some one

[Some one]

The 290 and Galveston corridors are still being studied as well, although not as much as the other two.

Edited December 23, 2023 by Some one

[BEES?!]

Where are you reading about these studies? That's really interesting to hear about a University BRT expansion, but it makes sense, since the current plan is to go all the way to Westchase.

Trying to ascertain things from Ft Bend Transit is tough, because their online presence isn't very good. They (Ft Bend) have talked about a P&R in Cinco Ranch area on Westpark/1093, though, but that was a couple of years ago.