METRORail University Line

[livincinco]

Speed is definitely a concern with respect to the type of light rail we are building, and we are even starting to see that now with the Red Line extension. Which is why I maintain that surface light rail is great for shorter distances less than 10 miles or so, but its effectiveness decreases the longer the lines are.ut

This is another reason why I think heavy rail could work better in Houston than most people think, the average speed for heavy rail systems is over double that of most light rail systems. And in Houston where distances are vast, it would cut down on transit times for people traveling long distances, something that surface rail and local buses can't accomplish.

I would like to see some grade separations for whatever mode we end up building.

Agreed, but would love (in a very nerdish way) to see a breakdown of actual commute patterns in the Houston area. I'm much more of a believer in the value of heavy rail than light rail, but I don't see anything that indicates any appetite to spend the kind of money that is required to do urban heavy rail.

[mfastx]

Agreed, but would love (in a very nerdish way) to see a breakdown of actual commute patterns in the Houston area. I'm much more of a believer in the value of heavy rail than light rail, but I don't see anything that indicates any appetite to spend the kind of money that is required to do urban heavy rail.

 

Haha, same here.  Heavy rail is tricky, build just one or two lines, and ridership is underwhelming (see Miami, Atlanta).  But it seems to have increasing returns the more you build (see BART, DC Metro).  

 

As far as right now, I wouldn't say there is a need for heavy rail, but in the next few decades we are quickly approaching the stage where the investment could be justified.  I would absolutely love to work on a project that analyzes commuter patterns, identifies high volume corridors, and figuring out a way to connect those areas as best as possible.  All with fancy maps and graphs.  

 

I admit I'm certainly biased in favor of building heavy rail.  Too many times I have gone to cities with their amazingly fast and efficient subway systems and thought "dammit, why can't Houston have something like this?" My thought process is that Houston deserves better than dinky light rail or BRT. 

Edited March 23, 2014 by mfastx

[citykid09]

Haha, same here.  Heavy rail is tricky, build just one or two lines, and ridership is underwhelming (see Miami, Atlanta).  But it seems to have increasing returns the more you build (see BART, DC Metro).  

 

As far as right now, I wouldn't say there is a need for heavy rail, but in the next few decades we are quickly approaching the stage where the investment could be justified.  I would absolutely love to work on a project that analyzes commuter patterns, identifies high volume corridors, and figuring out a way to connect those areas as best as possible.  All with fancy maps and graphs.  

 

I admit I'm certainly biased in favor of building heavy rail.  Too many times I have gone to cities with their amazingly fast and efficient subway systems and thought "dammit, why can't Houston have something like this?" My thought process is that Houston deserves better than dinky light rail or BRT. 

 

I agree with both of you. When I go to other cities such as NYC, DC, SF, etc and ride their heavy rail, I think to myself why can't Houston have this. Light Rail doesn't even come close, especially the way Houston built it. Many of you will complain that: Houston is to spread out; Houston people like to drive; Houston people won't ride heavy rail; Heavy rail is to inconvenient, etc, but none of that is true (except for being to spread out(but not to spread out for heavy rail)). I believe that heavy rail will make areas such as Uptown, Downtown, the Texas Medical Center, etc become more densley populated.

 

I don't see Houston ever become an Alpha City without a heavy rail system.

[livincinco]

I don't see Houston ever become an Alpha City without a heavy rail system.

I disagree with this because I don't think you become an alpha city by being a follower. You become an alpha city by being an innovator.

I would really love to see Houston leverage all of the assorted engineering brainpower in the city to come up with a 21st century solution to our transit issues. I personally don't think that anyone has done mass transit in a low density city that has a dispersed job base well and the numbers really support that view. I would much rather see Houston do something innovative rather than following everyone else.

You want to become an alpha city? Be innovative - run Elon Musk's hyperloop from the airport to downtown to that spaceport that is potentially being built. Run an elevated track for autonomous buses down Westpark instead of light rail. Do something that no one else has done.

[Slick Vik]

I disagree with this because I don't think you become an alpha city by being a follower. You become an alpha city by being an innovator.

I would really love to see Houston leverage all of the assorted engineering brainpower in the city to come up with a 21st century solution to our transit issues. I personally don't think that anyone has done mass transit in a low density city that has a dispersed job base well and the numbers really support that view. I would much rather see Houston do something innovative rather than following everyone else.

You want to become an alpha city? Be innovative - run Elon Musk's hyperloop from the airport to downtown to that spaceport that is potentially being built. Run an elevated track for autonomous buses down Westpark instead of light rail. Do something that no one else has done.

There is an elevated track for buses being built in my grandparents' town of Ludhiana, India. Says a lot when you're comparing houston to one of the most polluted cities on earth.

Edited March 24, 2014 by Slick Vik

[livincinco]

There is an elevated track for buses being built in my grandparents' town of Ludhiana, India. Says a lot when you're comparing houston to one of the most polluted cities on earth.

Ludhiana has also proposed building a metro rail system. Guess that says a lot too.

BTW, I fully expect that you will "spin" that as a sign of progress while demeaning the elevated bus, which you will note is not autonomous as I suggested in my post. I have come to expect that kind of hypocrisy.

[Howard Huge]

I disagree with this because I don't think you become an alpha city by being a follower. You become an alpha city by being an innovator.

I would really love to see Houston leverage all of the assorted engineering brainpower in the city to come up with a 21st century solution to our transit issues. I personally don't think that anyone has done mass transit in a low density city that has a dispersed job base well and the numbers really support that view. I would much rather see Houston do something innovative rather than following everyone else.

You want to become an alpha city? Be innovative - run Elon Musk's hyperloop from the airport to downtown to that spaceport that is potentially being built. Run an elevated track for autonomous buses down Westpark instead of light rail. Do something that no one else has done.

Continually bashes light rail and heavy rail as being useless and too expensive.......

........suggests building "Elon Musks hyperloop from the airport to downtown to that spaceport that is potentially being built" and running an elevated track for autonomous buses all the way down westpark.

[IronTiger]

Continually bashes light rail and heavy rail as being useless and too expensive.......

........suggests building "Elon Musks hyperloop from the airport to downtown to that spaceport that is potentially being built" and running an elevated track for autonomous buses all the way down westpark.

I think that was more of "crazy ideas" than "we need to build rail or we'll never be a first class city"

[Slick Vik]

Ludhiana has also proposed building a metro rail system. Guess that says a lot too.

BTW, I fully expect that you will "spin" that as a sign of progress while demeaning the elevated bus, which you will note is not autonomous as I suggested in my post. I have come to expect that kind of hypocrisy.

The elevated bus is a poor substitute for the mostly underground metro rail system that the public has been clamoring for. It's only because of lying, inept, and corrupt politicians this happened.

[livincinco]

Continually bashes light rail and heavy rail as being useless and too expensive.......

........suggests building "Elon Musks hyperloop from the airport to downtown to that spaceport that is potentially being built" and running an elevated track for autonomous buses all the way down westpark.

You clearly missed the intent of my comment, so I won't bother explaining it to you.

[totheskies]

I disagree with this because I don't think you become an alpha city by being a follower. You become an alpha city by being an innovator.

I would really love to see Houston leverage all of the assorted engineering brainpower in the city to come up with a 21st century solution to our transit issues. I personally don't think that anyone has done mass transit in a low density city that has a dispersed job base well and the numbers really support that view. I would much rather see Houston do something innovative rather than following everyone else.

You want to become an alpha city? Be innovative - run Elon Musk's hyperloop from the airport to downtown to that spaceport that is potentially being built. Run an elevated track for autonomous buses down Westpark instead of light rail. Do something that no one else has done.

 

I applaud the sentiment here.  But I still say there is no "one size fits all" solution.  Houston is far too large and far to diverse for that now.  We have to have our freeways, but we also need rail, and Bus Rapid Transit, and (potentially) something else out there that no one has done before.  Just like we would never expect every person in the city/metro area to live in the type of home, we shouldn't expect them to get from point A to point B the same way either. 

[IronTiger]

The elevated bus is a poor substitute for the mostly underground metro rail system that the public has been clamoring for. It's only because of lying, inept, and corrupt politicians this happened.

Yes, yes, because of the vast, anti-rail conspiracy. It can't have ANYTHING to do with engineering issues, extreme cost, and the water table, like how Interstate 10 in the Inner Loop becomes a canal in heavy flooding, now, can it? 

[livincinco]

The most interesting metric on ridership that I've seen shows a very tight correlation of density to ridership. In zip codes with a density of less than 4,000/sq mile, ridership is virtually nothing. Once density hits 4,000, ridership starts to move upward gradually. When density hits approx. 10,000/sq mile, it starts to turn upward dramatically. I would suggest that is a key metric in the BRT/LRT/HR discussion. I haven't looked up density along the Proposed University line corridor, but I would expect that it is in the 4-10,000 range and I doubt that it will achieve 10,000/sq mile anytime in the near future.

[Slick Vik]

Yes, yes, because of the vast, anti-rail conspiracy. It can't have ANYTHING to do with engineering issues, extreme cost, and the water table, like how Interstate 10 in the Inner Loop becomes a canal in heavy flooding, now, can it?

Not a conspiracy there just mismanagement of funds and overall corruption and lying by politicians in that state.

 

No anti-rail conspiracy in India it has one of the biggest overall railway networks in the world, and a wildly successful Japanese built Metro Rail system was built in Delhi recently, with another recently opened in Jaipur, and Chennai and Mumbai opening soon, with a list of many other cities that have proposals as well.

Edited March 24, 2014 by Slick Vik

[totheskies]

The most interesting metric on ridership that I've seen shows a very tight correlation of density to ridership. In zip codes with a density of less than 4,000/sq mile, ridership is virtually nothing. Once density hits 4,000, ridership starts to move upward gradually. When density hits approx. 10,000/sq mile, it starts to turn upward dramatically. I would suggest that is a key metric in the BRT/LRT/HR discussion. I haven't looked up density along the Proposed University line corridor, but I would expect that it is in the 4-10,000 range and I doubt that it will achieve 10,000/sq mile anytime in the near future.

 

The University Line would connect the densest area of Houston to 4 of the city's major employment centers (Galleria, Greenway Plaza, Downtown and the Med Center) as well as connect a student population of over 60,000 between UST, TSU and UH.  It's ridership would far surpass the other lines because of the density factor.  Had the political climate been supportive, it's actually the line that should've been built first.  Honestly, BRT would've been a better fit for the East End or North line. 

[Slick Vik]

The most interesting metric on ridership that I've seen shows a very tight correlation of density to ridership. In zip codes with a density of less than 4,000/sq mile, ridership is virtually nothing. Once density hits 4,000, ridership starts to move upward gradually. When density hits approx. 10,000/sq mile, it starts to turn upward dramatically. I would suggest that is a key metric in the BRT/LRT/HR discussion. I haven't looked up density along the Proposed University line corridor, but I would expect that it is in the 4-10,000 range and I doubt that it will achieve 10,000/sq mile anytime in the near future.

 

 

It was word of mouth from staff, not a study, but we can easily check this on the back of an envelope.

 

FEIS says 49,200 riders a day in 2030.

Red line sees 5% of its daily boardings in the peak half hour.

So we can safely guess U Line sees 2,460 boardings in the peak half hour.

11.4 miles, 20 mph average speed (Red Line does over 17 south of Downtown and U line would have way more fast running)

That means roughly 70 minute round trip and 12 trains to operate the line at 6 minute headways.

So each train sees 205 boardings in that half hour.

If the average trip is 10 minutes then that's about 70 people on each train at one time.

BUT we peanut butter spread those passengers on all the trains which isn't realistic.

At any given time, let's say four of those trains are empty because they are at or near the end of the line.

That means 308 boardings per train in that half hour and 103 on each train at a time.

The analysis I spoke of was probably done in the era of 40 ft buses only, so that's a pair of crush loaded buses every six minutes.

So you'd probably want to make that three buses every six minutes or one every two.

Not quite a pair of buses every two minutes, but not too far off.

If we adjust the assumption to five empty trains and a 15 minute average trip then we get (351...176) 4.4 very full buses every six minutes, or 1.5 very full buses every 2.

 

So it seems within the realm of possibility. They also may have been looking at a further out year than 2030.

You think light rail trains mess up signals? Imagine a busway trying to get a bus through in each direction every minute or two.

I'm all about buses until the capacity issue arises, and in this case it seems to have arisen.

 

Final point, half of this discussion seems to be about whether light rail should serve urban circulation or suburban commutes. We all can have our opinions on what we'd like to see, but objectively one of those will serve far more riders than the other at a given level of investment.

 

 

[kdog08]

The University Line would connect the densest area of Houston to 4 of the city's major employment centers (Galleria, Greenway Plaza, Downtown and the Med Center) as well as connect a student population of over 60,000 between UST, TSU and UH.  It's ridership would far surpass the other lines because of the density factor.  Had the political climate been supportive, it's actually the line that should've been built first.  Honestly, BRT would've been a better fit for the East End or North line. 

 

This. 100%. 

[IronTiger]

No anti-rail conspiracy in India it has one of the biggest overall railway networks in the world, and a wildly successful Japanese built Metro Rail system was built in Delhi recently, with another recently opened in Jaipur, and Chennai and Mumbai opening soon, with a list of many other cities that have proposals as well.

A 2010 survey found that a third of government officials indicted for corruption were from the railways (link), and those were the ones they caught. (and India's railways break down constantly and have accidents)

Not to mention Chicago and New York were also under huge corruption when their rail systems were built.

Wait, what am I saying? We've established that building railroads is entirely squeaky clone without corruption at all. 

Edited March 24, 2014 by IronTiger

[Slick Vik]

A 2010 survey found that a third of government officials indicted for corruption were from the railways (link), and those were the ones they caught. (and India's railways break down constantly and have accidents)

Not to mention Chicago and New York were also under huge corruption when their rail systems were built.

Wait, what am I saying? We've established that building railroads is entirely squeaky clone without corruption at all.

Everyone in Indian politics and business is corrupt. Doesn't matter what industry.

[Slick Vik]

A 2010 survey found that a third of government officials indicted for corruption were from the railways (link), and those were the ones they caught. (and India's railways break down constantly and have accidents)

Not to mention Chicago and New York were also under huge corruption when their rail systems were built.

Wait, what am I saying? We've established that building railroads is entirely squeaky clone without corruption at all.

Everyone in Indian politics and business is corrupt. Doesn't matter what industry.

India has a good rail system for what it is. It's nowhere near china but it goes everywhere and runs frequently. There are some express trains too and they're all priced very moderately.

[mfastx]

Ha!  If corrupt policies was the way New York and Chicago's rail systems were built, then where do I sign?!  

 

I kid, I kid. 

[totheskies]

We've built many a freeway in Texas thanks to corruption as well, and we've built many without it.  Unfair generalization against Chicago/ NYC imo. 

[IronTiger]

We've built many a freeway in Texas thanks to corruption as well, and we've built many without it. Unfair generalization against Chicago/ NYC imo.

That was a generalization, I agree.

In truth, I enjoy a good debate about light rail and where it goes, and the whole "freeways are bad, people who support freeways are bad, light rail is good, people who oppose rail are bad" rhetoric is childish and annoying. In fact, the reason I made this post wasn't to serve as a repository for hating Culberson, it was to discuss University Line alternatives.

I think it's safe to say that Culberson really doesn't understand light rail all that well, but I don't think most of us do either.

[Slick Vik]

That was a generalization, I agree.

In truth, I enjoy a good debate about light rail and where it goes, and the whole "freeways are bad, people who support freeways are bad, light rail is good, people who oppose rail are bad" rhetoric is childish and annoying. In fact, the reason I made this post wasn't to serve as a repository for hating Culberson, it was to discuss University Line alternatives.

I think it's safe to say that Culberson really doesn't understand light rail all that well, but I don't think most of us do either.

Looking back the reason light rail was built was because it's all houston could build with local funds once delay blocked federal funding.

[mfastx]

I think it's safe to say that Culberson really doesn't understand light rail all that well, but I don't think most of us do either.

 

I agree.  I would venture to say that Culberson doesn't know much about public transportation in general at all.  A few "important" people just came to him vehemently opposed to the project, and he's protecting their interests.  That's all it is. It's how politics work.  

Edited March 27, 2014 by mfastx

[Andrew Broadfoot]

After moving over to Third Ward, I have to ask. Has anyone here heard anymore news (possibly promising) about the University line?

[mfastx]

After moving over to Third Ward, I have to ask. Has anyone here heard anymore news (possibly promising) about the University line?

 

Some random HAIFer said that they visited a METRO stand for earth day and he apparently was told that METRO has a "plan" for building the university.  

 

Other than that, no good news in years about the line.  I wouldn't hold my breath unfortunately. 

[Andrew Broadfoot]

Some random HAIFer said that they visited a METRO stand for earth day and he apparently was told that METRO has a "plan" for building the university.

Other than that, no good news in years about the line. I wouldn't hold my breath unfortunately.

Thanks for that info. I hope they get their route sorted out and move forward. Edited May 25, 2014 by Andrew Broadfoot

[totheskies]

Thanks for that info. I hope they get their route sorted out and move forward.

 

Annise Parker has talked up a scenario several times where they would try to aggressively build the line in Lee and Poe's district's as a method of pressuring Culberson, but I think that's mostly an empty threat.  They are not apt to build anything until all government entities are on board. 

 

If you want the University Line, then VOTE CULBERSON OUT THIS NOVEMBER!!! 

[Luminare]

Annise Parker has talked up a scenario several times where they would try to aggressively build the line in Lee and Poe's district's as a method of pressuring Culberson, but I think that's mostly an empty threat.  They are not apt to build anything until all government entities are on board. 

 

If you want the University Line, then VOTE CULBERSON OUT THIS NOVEMBER!!! 

 

Very true statements in all.

 

It really sucks because as a Libertarian I actually agree that Federal money shouldn't be used for local projects (in regards to transportation it's not being used to help interstate commerce only local). State and local taxes and monies should be used for projects like these. I actually remember being a part of Culberson's Bill Archer Internship when I was in high school and got to spend some time around culberson. He is actually a genuinely good person and someone who really cares about his district and is a very good politician.

 

However, when money has already been passed and you can't do anything to stop it then you might as well put that money to good use! That's just common sense and I think this is where his political philosophy backfired on him, and because he is most of the time in Washington, didn't really step back and see how much good this rail line would have been great for his district and instead, I think, felt like to appeal to national conservatives, needed to turn down the money like many Conservatives did in their districts.

 

It's simply a case of being at the wrong place at the wrong time and with the booming growth of Houston and how bad of an affect this was it might come back to haunt him.

 

I believe there needs to be a "come to Jesus moment" if you will where the GOP needs to come to grips with. That there is a difference between investment (which is in the boundaries of the Constitution of course), and senseless spending. This is both Nationally and Statewide.

 

Luckily the ban can be overturned and until that time it would be wise to maybe place a quick BRT line as a sort of Trojan Horse to help convince people that a rail line will work. Once ridership is up then rail can be placed. Until that time a BRT can be used to increase general ridership in that area and is generally cheaper to place overall. 

Edited June 4, 2014 by Luminare