Downtown Retail Market

[TheNiche]

Unfortunately your description is accurate here. This last week METRO was courting representatives from Ottawa to discuss Houston's experience with light rail. I met one of these reps Friday. He asked me my impressions etc. I asked him what METRO was telling him. One of the funniest things was that they told him that if the rail election were held today that more than 70 percent would vote for it. I then told him that it won by the narrowest margin on its second try. He just seem surprised. Some of the other regular riders were also giving him comments and he just couldn't believe what the riders were telling him vs what METRO officials told him.

Doesn't surprise me. METRO really jacked around with its inner city ridership by funnelling them through the LRT. About 8 or 9 months ago, I conducted a consumer-style survey that had questions relating to the availability of mass transit in a predominantly Mexican area of the Inner Loop. The residents were really frustrated because they now had to transfer more frequently, often unnecessarily, for routes that were better served with busses. People (or at least these people) care about their time...METRO doesn't seem to recognize that.

Accurate? You haven't told us anything. And, a vote today, after a successful launch of light rail and a prolonged period of high gas prices, likely would produce a much higher approval than in 2000. METRO may have surveys to support that statement. But, we don't know based on your post.

Well you're in a very lawyerly mood today...

You know the jist of what musicman is saying.

I do wonder, though, whether there is a significant correlation between ridership and gas prices from month to month. That would be interesting to look at and may be a good empirical indicator of whether gas prices really matter, or whether it'd just be a talking point for the politicians.

[RedScare]

You know the jist of what musicman is saying.

Yes, I do. I know he is implying something that he has no facts to back up.

[TheNiche]

Yes, I do. I know he is implying something that he has no facts to back up.

Alright...well as luck would have it, I have the gathered such data that substantiates his implied theory. They're 9 months old but should still be valid.

[mainvoice]

I am convinced that most people would have liked for light rail to have taken less time to construct. Before you ask I don't have the back-up but believe that I heard recently on a news radio station that one of the groups who bid on the design of the light rail but had lost , was awarded a major project in China that called for a version that was suspended on a cable which only took 1 year to complete. At least it is completed and can see how in my opinion having light rail at street level is a plus in downtown. I think it would be worth while for them to re-visit how Metro goes about connecting it to the rest of the city though at this point via a less invasive means.

Also would like to say that I was really kidding and didn't mean to offend anyone. Thanks for your input.

[musicman]

I do wonder, though, whether there is a significant correlation between ridership and gas prices from month to month. That would be interesting to look at and may be a good empirical indicator of whether gas prices really matter, or whether it'd just be a talking point for the politicians.

Now that METRO is proposing increases in fares due to increased gas prices, it will be interesting to see how ridership numbers will vary.

Accurate? You haven't told us anything. And, a vote today, after a successful launch of light rail and a prolonged period of high gas prices, likely would produce a much higher approval than in 2000. METRO may have surveys to support that statement. But, we don't know based on your post.

Just as it is hard to make a point when you're using phrases such as "likely would produce" and "may have surveys." I was simply quoting the number the representative from Ottawa said that METRO officials told him.

Edited July 11, 2006 by musicman

[mainvoice]

Doesn't surprise me. METRO really jacked around with its inner city ridership by funnelling them through the LRT. About 8 or 9 months ago, I conducted a consumer-style survey that had questions relating to the availability of mass transit in a predominantly Mexican area of the Inner Loop. The residents were really frustrated because they now had to transfer more frequently, often unnecessarily, for routes that were better served with busses. People (or at least these people) care about their time...METRO doesn't seem to recognize that.

I don't think Houston has any kind of real mass transit. I think the light rail is becoming its answer to mass transit. As sections of the light rail are completed wouldn't there be less or to an extent no transfering required ? I don't believe it would be feasible to have a private bus line or otherwise accomodate everyone all the time. What I do think light rail will do is bring a lot of circulation into the downtown area and allow people to visit like it does now without having to actually drive into the area and park. It would be interesting to see what people thought once the construction of light rail was actually completed. I would imagine that frequency issues would probably dissapear as the line grows or upon completion .

[mainvoice]

Now that METRO is proposing increases in fares due to increased gas prices, it will be interesting to see how ridership numbers will vary.

My guess would be that ridership will not be impacted much if any at all with a fare increase. I think savings on parking is a factor here and the token fee to ride light rail won't keep someone who is visiting downtown from time to time from riding. As a matter of fact I think that a lot of workers for example working in the med center and parking at surface lots have their light rail fees paid for them by hospitals,etc.

[mainvoice]

The intent of the train was not to be more efficient than a car?

Yes. It it actually was among other reasons. It wasn't just constructed to make it look like Mr. Rogers neighborhood. Think of efficiency as in carpool available for all, and park and ride.

[GovernorAggie]

I think FEMA is the only agency in America hated more than Houston METRO. How did this thread turn into a fight about METRO?

I didn't know that the train ran only at 18 minute intervals for the event, but I think that's the normal intervals from 10pm until the last train around 2 am. What I do know is that they ran two car trains all day, every day during Essence. In other words, they had the same number of operators that they would have had on a normal day, but voila! doubled the capacity for the weekend.

Now can we please get back to the main topic please?

Edited July 11, 2006 by GovernorAggie

[Howard]

Can someone give me more information on the tax benefits to downtown retail and the downtown boundaries for those tax breaks???

[312]

The guy who bought it paid for the whole bar - furnishings & all, so it will probably look very similar. I also heard that not only will "Pi" be the name, but it will be the theme - complete with drink specials that cost $3.14 - which I don't really get, because I don't think I would be very happy walking around with a pocket full of change after buying a couple drinks (tips including pennies is rude, right?), but whatevs... it's all hearsay till the bar opens!

Is it open yet ? How is it doing ?

[TJones]

Are you sure that "Pi" equals 3.14 ?

http://www.symynet.com/fb/pi_hoax.htm

[scottf]

US cities I have been to that I loved their downtown areas...

Seattle, Portland, San Fran (not so much the Financial District but all around it), San Diego, Denver, San Antonio, New Orleans, Chicago, NYC (Manhattan), Boston, DC, Philly, Baltimore and Portland, Maine.

US cities that I have been to that had decent downtowns...

Los Angeles, Vegas (gotta love the old time gambling scene), Minneapolis, Fort Worth, Austin, Indianapolis, Cincinnati, Miami, Atlanta, Pittsburgh, Rochester, and Providence.

US cities that I have been to that appeared DEAD downtown...

Milwaukee, Phoenix, Tucson, Dallas, Cleveland, Tampa, Buffalo, Raleigh, and Hartford.

I find Houston to be somewhere between dead and decent. It helps if there's an event going on like I-Fest or Art Car or Cinco de Mayo but on a weekend in which there is no festival and the Astros are on the road, downtown can be quite quiet.

You really nailed it! I have been to nearly every city you mention and despite a few minor disagreements (San Antonio/Tourist Trap, Vegas Downtown/iffy, LA/downtown?Really?) I think you are absolutely accurate. We in Houston are definitely above dead and have already joined Decent territory. We are light years beyond so many other cities and the great news is downtown Houston is just getting started! So many projects and restaurants and bars are underway.

I am new to Houston and as an outsider I have to say, things are so much better in Houston than many locals give it credit for. It's a great city and the renaissance has clearly begun and is taking hold.

Edited July 25, 2006 by scottf

[312]

You really nailed it! I have been to nearly every city you mention and despite a few minor disagreements (San Antonio/Tourist Trap, Vegas Downtown/iffy, LA/downtown?Really?) I think you are absolutely accurate. We in Houston are definitely above dead and have already joined Decent territory. We are light years beyond so many other cities and the great news is downtown Houston is just getting started! So many projects and restaurants and bars are underway.

I am new to Houston and as an outsider I have to say, things are so much better in Houston than many locals give it credit for. It's a great city and the renaissance has clearly begun and is taking hold.

I like your positive attitude. Welcome to Houston.

[Htowngirl]

Is it open yet ?

Yes, it's open.

[GREASER]

oh man, a club named pi...I`m there

[ediegh]

6th degree is now Pi Lounge and Bar...it is a cool place to hang out, pretty much similar to 6th degrees.

The new owner is really cool...the bar seems to be doing well. The owner is a graduate of UT.

As far as I know, there are no drink specials of $3.14,,,that is corny!

I know that 6th degrees lounge/bar closed its doors not so long ago...do you know if they are going to reopen anything new in that space?

6th degrees used to be located at the bottom of the bayou lofts building.

[ediegh]

Actually, I think he gives the drink specials for $3.00..that way you can give a $1 tip....

[Daniepwils]

SORRY for the long post....

IMO we should move the clubs off to another street. Main Street should appeal to all people (from children to adults). Main street should be more like (I think) Franklin Street, which has many restaurants. The Main Street project, has tried to do this, but they should move to the next step. I also think some type of entertainment, other than the sports venue's would bring people to Main Street.

FIRST STEP should be to Clean up Main Street. TBH there are corners of Main Street, that smell like urine. One corner (where the store sells Fried Chicken) is disgusting. To have to smell urine and fried chicken, and to make your way through the panhandlers and transients is not very appealing. (If you walk downtown everyday you know what corner I am talking about). I walk to work everyday to 5Houston Center (half way I walk in the Park Shops), and I go through this intersection, GROSS. What is even more sad is I live a block from this crap.... I don't really want to live downtown anymore, unless they clean up Main Street. And I am sure allot of downtown dwellers don't either.

Some days I feel like having a T-shirt made saying "NO I DON'T HAVE ANY CHANGE, STOP ASKING" -- same people hang out and ask for change, one guy has been there for 6 years.... (if you can sit there all day and do that, then get a job). Honestly, I am just tired of the beggars.... Houston really needs to clean this up. And no, I don't mean make a law, that just forces them out............. I mean really help these people out. I saw on the news the other day, that we are just starting this program for people that are homeless. I hope it does well, really do. We house them till they can get on their feet, and find a good steady job. REALLY IS GREAT. But until then what do we do????

I think there should be some incentive for these companies that have bought these abandoned buildings and lots on Main Street. Light a fire under there butts and figure out what they want to do with these buildings and lots, not just wait to see what happens, and then decide on what to do.

Entertainment, is stagnant on Main Street. A movie theatre, might help, or maybe some type of interactive toy store, arcade, or hell maybe even a school (besides UHD), even though its not considered entertainment. These are just some ideas, of a million that can liven up Main Street. Most importantly, the stores need to have hours like any other mall. Open 7 days a week from basically 10-10pm, even later in some places. (I know this won't be cost effective at first, but you have to take a step in the right direction). All the money the city has already spent on this project.... it is still not up to par.

Another transportation system linked to the light rail would be nice. Before light rail we had a Trolley System that was nice for downtown, I really think we should start that again (maybe .50 to ride it). Have it move through parts of downtown and midtown. Would link the pedestrians traffic in the two areas.

Also lastly to all the readers, if you made it this far. I am sorry for making this so lengthy. I blame the weather today, looks nasty.

[musicman]

Great post Daniepwils. The urine corner may be Lamar and Main. At least that's where i smell it.

Do you feel the Main Street Square has been a plus or a minus?

IMO, it tends to draw the homeless there PLUS the hindrance on Main St. vehicular traffic is noticeable. When most people find "main st", they don't expect it to end in the middle of a business district.

Your comment suggesting the return of the trolleys is not popular with METRO. I think it would be popular with the Downtown weekday crowd though.

Edited September 28, 2006 by musicman

[Daniepwils]

Great post Daniepwils. The urine corner may be Lamar and Main. At least that's where i smell it.

Do you feel the Main Street Square has been a plus or a minus?

IMO, it tends to draw the homeless there PLUS the hindrance on Main St. vehicular traffic is noticeable. When most people find "main st", they don't expect it to end in the middle of a business district.

Your comment suggesting the return of the trolleys is not popular with METRO. I think it would be popular with the Downtown weekday crowd though.

Yup, Main and Lamar, GROSS.

I think Main Street Square was done with good intentions. It is a good concept, but like you said.... in the middle of the business district. IMO ALL of Main Street should have been turned into a pedestrian walkway, if they wanted something like that. Totally close main street to all vehicle transportation, or leave it all open road access, not cut two blocks out of the street for fountains.

Imagine, all of Main Street in downtown all water, with fountains, that would look pretty good. (Pain in the ass to keep clean though).

[Pumapayam]

Install more mass transit #1

Have an actual grocery store that is pedestrian friendly #2

then people have a reason to move downtown because they can buy food

Build more highrise and midrise condos and apartments #3

then more people will be around at all hours

Build sidewalk markets like fruit stands and flowers #4

Extend shopping hours past 6 like until 10 p.m. or 12 a.m. #5

[TheNiche]

Install more mass transit #1

Have an actual grocery store that is pedestrian friendly #2

then people have a reason to move downtown because they can buy food

Build more highrise and midrise condos and apartments #3

then more people will be around at all hours

Build sidewalk markets like fruit stands and flowers #4

Extend shopping hours past 6 like until 10 p.m. or 12 a.m. #5

That much is pretty obvious. The question seems to be not so much 'what' as is is 'how'.

[Pumapayam]

That much is pretty obvious. The question seems to be not so much 'what' as is is 'how'.

Well people need a reason to stay downtown.

Most people just go to work in their office building, file out for lunch, and go home.

If home was downtown (which it is for a small percentage of people) then retail would thrive if that number increased.

But we need something to move people around and add the convienience of a local store within walking distance.

The only thing around there is a Randall's in Midtown.

You need ammenities to attract more people to move there.

It is the people who live in downtown that should support the bulk of the retail.

The rest just hit the restaurants and clubs and treat downtown more as a novelty.

Edited September 28, 2006 by Pumapayam

[The Great Hizzy!]

You need ammenities to attract more people to move there.

It is the people who live in downtown that should support the bulk of the retail.

The rest just hit the restaurants and clubs and treat downtown more as a novelty.

I mostly agree with this. I don't think downtown residents SHOULD necessarily be the primary supporters of downtown retail (in fact, I think it more depends on the type of retail) but I do agree that there presence should be substantial.

I really like the idea of buidling off potential new residential develops such as the Fingers project, the Pavillions and even the new Ben Milam renovation if it comes to fruition.

[TheNiche]

I mostly agree with this. I don't think downtown residents SHOULD necessarily be the primary supporters of downtown retail (in fact, I think it more depends on the type of retail) but I do agree that there presence should be substantial.

I really like the idea of buidling off potential new residential develops such as the Fingers project, the Pavillions and even the new Ben Milam renovation if it comes to fruition.

It is very easy to talk about what our goals and objectives are, but reaching them is another matter altogether. Puma kind of skirted around what I was trying to get at, but Hizzy is on the mark.

I think that downtown's best prospects are presently in the works. Between Pavilions, One Park Place's retail component, and the as-yet unnamed park, I think that we'll be able to create a sort of critical mass at street level, with retail development snowballing incrementally. And I'd argue that downtown's meager population will not be the driving force so much as will the draw from the region.

Over time, this may change and the residential population may foster significant retail development catering to the neighborhood. But I wouldn't hold my breath.

[Ron4tx]

Many neighborhoods have a local community newspaper that informs its residence of store openings, police reports, local school events, and other local happenings.

Does Downtown have such a paper?

Edited September 29, 2006 by Ron4tx

[312]

It is very easy to talk about what our goals and objectives are, but reaching them is another matter altogether. Puma kind of skirted around what I was trying to get at, but Hizzy is on the mark.

I think that downtown's best prospects are presently in the works. Between Pavilions, One Park Place's retail component, and the as-yet unnamed park, I think that we'll be able to create a sort of critical mass at street level, with retail development snowballing incrementally. And I'd argue that downtown's meager population will not be the driving force so much as will the draw from the region.

Over time, this may change and the residential population may foster significant retail development catering to the neighborhood. But I wouldn't hold my breath.

Great posts Hizzy and Niche.

[pwright1]

Downtown residents are not the primary supporters of downtown retail. Here in Seattle, downtown shoppers come from all over the city and suburbs. You say people need a reason to stay downtown. From what I could see, there are plenty of restaurants & nighclubs, the theater district, the aquarium, baseball and basketball arenas, Macy's and the Aquarium. Believe it or not the dt Foleys (now Macy's) is one of the most profitable Foley's in the chain. And what about all of the midtown residents? What about conventions? Are they big in Houston? The downtown population is only getting larger. I believe major downtown retail in Houston would do fantastic. Not a shoe repair shop or Walgreens but Bloomingdales, Barney's, Williams Sonoma, Victoria Secret, Gap, Barnes & Noble and many others. And please don't say you already have these stores. So do we here in dt Seattle. But about 5 miles away at University Village we have a lot of the same stores as downtown. Both shopping districts do extremely well.

University Village

Downtown Seattle

[Daniepwils]

A few questions regarding Seattle (just curious)

1) how many shopping malls are in a 50mile radus of Seattle's downtown area?

2) How many residients live in the downtown Seattle area?

3) What are these store hours (if you know) and are they open on the weekends?

I am just curious really. Most other cities seem to have a lively downtown area, except Houston and LA. Houston and LA, both being two of the largest cities in the country... should have a downtown night life.

They are "sprawled" cities (not to mention lack of a "good" commuting system, other than freeways), this is the only thing I can think of that would cause no one to come downtown on a regular basis and no store's risking to setup shop downtown. People can just goto these same store's in the malls where they live.

Edited October 16, 2006 by Daniepwils