I-45 Rebuild (North Houston Highway Improvement Project)

[Luminare]

4 hours ago, X.R. said:

@ToryGattis with the explanation now that the construction has been unpaused. It seems like things are picking up, and that the project may be approved in pieces. For now work is greenlit for the 59 portion by midtown/museum, the part of 59 leading into 45, and the part of 45 that feeds into i-10. The Eado part is still on pause:

https://twitter.com/torygattis/status/1465769685849415688?s=20

Makes sense to start with those sections as they are the most complex.

[mattyt36]

Who do you think led the negotiations for this? My $ says Sylvester Turner.

[kennyc05]

What about north of 610?

[samagon]

14 hours ago, HNathoo said:

Here is another article referencing the reactivation of the project:

https://www.houstonpublicmedia.org/articles/news/transportation/2021/11/30/414398/txdot-gets-the-ok-to-continue-limited-work-on-a-controversial-i-45-expansion/

Quote

“We expect TxDOT to participate in good faith and work alongside us to achieve a resolution that benefits all County residents,” Menefee said.

that's a huge leap of faith considering how they've acted on this project so far.

[Amlaham]

If this project keeps getting delayed, it's going to be a nightmare if/when FIFA decides to host some of their games here in 2026.

[X.R.]

1 hour ago, samagon said:

that's a huge leap of faith considering how they've acted on this project so far.

well, despite some doubting the power of the lawsuits and the fed gov't, TxDot's hand's were tied and now are untied. The lawsuit hasn't been dismissed, just a stay while the parties work towards a resolution, and the fed eased up. Not sure how much of a leap it is when they both can re-tie TxDot's hands for certain portions of the project if they don't like what's happening. Which really should tell us that our elected powers that be are comfortable with mostly everything but the Eado part.

Now that the infrastructure bill has passed, can't they tap into some of that money for the cap parks? If they could, I think at least some of the angst would go away. 

[mattyt36]

1 hour ago, Amlaham said:

If this project keeps getting delayed, it's going to be a nightmare if/when FIFA decides to host some of their games here in 2026.

No World Cup matches will be played at BBVA/PNC if that’s what you’re implying.

[Amlaham]

1 hour ago, mattyt36 said:

No World Cup matches will be played at BBVA/PNC if that’s what you’re implying.

I was implying that the city will probably get thousands of tourists going in and around our city (mainly in hotspot areas like Downtown/Midtown/ Museum district/ EADO/ etc). So, they would eventually have to go through this construction loop if its not completed by then (which probably wont due to the delays). I don't think NRG is a big area in terms of tourist attractions (In my opinion).

[mattyt36]

4 minutes ago, Amlaham said:

I was implying that the city will probably get thousands of tourists going in and around our city (mainly in hotspot areas like Downtown/Midtown/ Museum district/ EADO/ etc). So, they would eventually have to go through this construction loop if its not completed by then (which probably wont due to the delays). I don't think NRG is a big area in terms of tourist attractions (In my opinion).

Understood, but I think that's a bit simplistic.  "Ahhhhhh, freeway construction during major event=definite nightmare."

The biggest determinants are the construction phasing plan and the volume of traffic flows.

If we're talking about tourists, then the traffic flows are dependent on where the hotels are.  It's my sense that the supply of hotel rooms is weighted downtown and to the west, with the only other major concentrations at IAH and The Woodlands, but obviously these won't be the most attractive hotel rooms, and traffic should be taken as a matter of course.

For people staying downtown, the light rail will be the most attractive transportation option, as it has been with the Super Bowl and Final Four.  Obviously people staying to the west or in the Galleria won't be affected.  

For those wanting to use personal vehicles from downtown, the number one traffic determinant will be the surface street connections to the freeways from downtown.  Since there's generally a quadrant system to enter and exit downtown, I'm not sure why what's happening on the perimeter in terms of construction will be that impactful, as long as the entries and exits bypass the construction.

Anyway, there's no way of knowing now, but I wouldn't be so quick to assume that the NHHIP is going to be a "nightmare" for the World Cup, at least from the perspective of the "thousands of tourists" who are visiting, especially given the lead time involved for planning.

 

[samagon]

On 11/30/2021 at 6:58 PM, Luminare said:

Makes sense to start with those sections as they are the most complex.

maybe the most complex from an engineering standpoint, but I think the other sections are still under review because they are more complex from an equality standpoint.

chron has more details:

https://www.houstonchronicle.com/news/houston-texas/transportation/article/Feds-TxDOT-agree-to-restart-on-pieces-of-I-45-16667200.php

while this looks to be good for the portion of segment 3 that needed work, they are very specific about restrictions:

Quote

Specifically, Rogers said FHWA “is not prepared at this time to allow TxDOT to resume any right-of-way acquisition in Segment 3.” TxDOT, he added, could acquire properties from owners who approach it on a case-by-case basis “rather than relying on eminent domain.”

 

Edited December 2, 2021 by samagon

[mattyt36]

Acc to Misspelled Doug:

Though there is concern about the project’s impacts in Midtown, Third Ward and Eado, the most vocal opposition to the project emanates from north of downtown where TxDOT proposes to add two managed lanes in each direction to I-45. That widening, which requires the destruction of hundreds of homes and businesses adjacent to the freeway, has drawn scorn and accusations that highway officials are perpetuating decades of carving freeways through low-income and minority communities to the detriment of those neighborhoods.

Is there a summary of this opposition anywhere?  Are we talking about just the 610-Downtown segment or going all the way to the Beltway?  Does this refer to the Stop IH 45 Now group?  Does anyone know how long this group has been together, who formed it, who funded it (most importantly), and how they have historically participated in the comment process?

[iah77]

18 hours ago, mattyt36 said:

Acc to Misspelled Doug:

Though there is concern about the project’s impacts in Midtown, Third Ward and Eado, the most vocal opposition to the project emanates from north of downtown where TxDOT proposes to add two managed lanes in each direction to I-45. That widening, which requires the destruction of hundreds of homes and businesses adjacent to the freeway, has drawn scorn and accusations that highway officials are perpetuating decades of carving freeways through low-income and minority communities to the detriment of those neighborhoods.

Is there a summary of this opposition anywhere?  Are we talking about just the 610-Downtown segment or going all the way to the Beltway?  Does this refer to the Stop IH 45 Now group?  Does anyone know how long this group has been together, who formed it, who funded it (most importantly), and how they have historically participated in the comment process?

I don't know where all these vocal people were during their survey lol. It seems like a very loud small group of people...

[Texasota]

To be fair, that survey was completely useless. It was just a binary "I support it"/ "I don't support it". I think most people who have issues with the NHHIP have specific concerns, not just a blanket condemnation of the whole project.

[mattyt36]

2 hours ago, Texasota said:

To be fair, that survey was completely useless. It was just a binary "I support it"/ "I don't support it". I think most people who have issues with the NHHIP have specific concerns, not just a blanket condemnation of the whole project.

One would hope so.  

The stated mission of Stop TxDOT I-45 (from their website) is:

To elevate walkability, challenge the status quo of transportation policy, build capacity within Houston neighborhoods to stop the I-45 expansion, and advocate for strategic, inclusive, and equitable transportation in Texas.

That's a pretty damned broad mission, and they've linked it all to this one project.  If that's really what they want to do, it doesn't seem to me this is the best way to do it.   (In fact, as written it does imply a "blanket condemnation of the whole project" for purely symbolic reasons.)  It's like a caricature of the 1960s anti-freeway protests, and the issues just aren't the same.  Sure, there are anecdotes that make it seem similar from a "gut reaction" perspective, but it's nowhere near the scale.  

(My humble opinion, of course.)

[j_cuevas713]

Well in either case the Feds just assured the pause has not been lifted. This small “ineffective” group of protestors have made their voice known. I’m actually really proud Houstonians aren’t letting TxDOT just do whatever it wants. They’re really trying to pull a fast one on minority communities. You can talk about all the benefits you want and how displacing homes, etc is not a bid deal. BUT IT IS. Texas leaders have been getting away with so much for so damn long that us as Texans don’t bat an eye. We just accept the status quo because we’ve been told a million times “Oh they would never do something without really making sure it was the best option for Texans.” I call BS! 

Edited December 8, 2021 by j_cuevas713

[Big E]

35 minutes ago, j_cuevas713 said:

They’re really trying to pull a fast one on minority communities.

They aren't trying to do anything of the sort. This project has been in the works for the better part of a decade now, and has probably been in planning and back room discussions for longer. Nobody is getting blindsided by this. There have been multiple meetings and comment periods. This will ultimately benefit the city, and either replace or retrofit crumbling infrastructure that is decades old and well past its functional use limit. This small group of "protestors" isn't doing anything particularly laudable in and of itself.

[mattyt36]

1 hour ago, j_cuevas713 said:

Well in either case the Feds just assured the pause has not been lifted. This small “ineffective” group of protestors have made their voice known. I’m actually really proud Houstonians aren’t letting TxDOT just do whatever it wants. They’re really trying to pull a fast one on minority communities. You can talk about all the benefits you want and how displacing homes, etc is not a bid deal. BUT IT IS. Texas leaders have been getting away with so much for so damn long that us as Texans don’t bat an eye. We just accept the status quo because we’ve been told a million times “Oh they would never do something without really making sure it was the best option for Texans.” I call BS! 

For the record, I’m in no way saying it’s not a big deal for those affected. I’m just saying that—at least as far as I can tell—the scale is minimal, especially compared with original freeway developments.

[mattyt36]

57 minutes ago, Big E said:

They aren't trying to do anything of the sort. This project has been in the works for the better part of a decade now, and has probably been in planning and back room discussions for longer. Nobody is getting blindsided by this. There have been multiple meetings and comment periods. This will ultimately benefit the city, and either replace or retrofit crumbling infrastructure that is decades old and well past its functional use limit. This small group of "protestors" isn't doing anything particularly laudable in and of itself.

Yes, if one seriously thinks that TxDOT is doing anything particularly fast, i.e., “pulling a fast one,” then they haven’t been paying attention.

Of course I’m happy to be proven wrong, but I’ve read nothing indicating this. For those anti-expansion, given it’s a 48-page thread, it’s probably time to summarize the opposition other than simply relying on negative associations with freeways prevalent with urban studies types, e.g., POLLUTION! MORE CONGESTION! DELIBERATELY STICKING IT TO THE POOR PEOPLE!

It was definitely worth learning these lessons from the 1950s and 1960s, but I’m sorry, it’s just not the same thing. If you can’t see why, then I don’t know what else to say.

Sure, there could be a change in federal or state policies diverting transportation funding to RAIL. (I won’t say transit, as, like it or not, this project includes plenty of transit capacity. It just isn’t New York, London, or Tokyo. But if you can’t see that this isn’t the same as the 1950s, you probably can’t see that Houston is not New York and you probably also can’t see the freeways and sprawl in the NY suburbs from Long Island to Connecticut to New Jersey.) In any case, the idea of sacrificing this project for a nonexistent rail option or to “promote walkability,” as is stated in the Stop IH-45 Now mission statement is absolutely inane. It’s the kind of thinking that made Toronto replace Montreal as the primary city in Canada in a very short time. You’d be sacrificing for absolutely nothing but decreased economic activity. That may be A-OK for some of you, but surely you can acknowledge it is probably not a winning issue for the majority of residents in Houston, Texas. I wish everyone was like me, too, and decided not to replace a car after it was on its last leg, but I’m not delusional. The choices that you may think we have are false … i.e., they’re not real.

(All of the above with the “in my opinion” disclaimer, of course.)

[j_cuevas713]

1 hour ago, mattyt36 said:

Yes, if one seriously thinks that TxDOT is doing anything particularly fast, i.e., “pulling a fast one,” then they haven’t been paying attention.

Of course I’m happy to be proven wrong, but I’ve read nothing indicating this. For those anti-expansion, given it’s a 48-page thread, it’s probably time to summarize the opposition other than simply relying on negative associations with freeways prevalent with urban studies types, e.g., POLLUTION! MORE CONGESTION! DELIBERATELY STICKING IT TO THE POOR PEOPLE!

It was definitely worth learning these lessons from the 1950s and 1960s, but I’m sorry, it’s just not the same thing. If you can’t see why, then I don’t know what else to say.

Sure, there could be a change in federal or state policies diverting transportation funding to RAIL. (I won’t say transit, as, like it or not, this project includes plenty of transit capacity. It just isn’t New York, London, or Tokyo. But if you can’t see that this isn’t the same as the 1950s, you probably can’t see that Houston is not New York and you probably also can’t see the freeways and sprawl in the NY suburbs from Long Island to Connecticut to New Jersey.) In any case, the idea of sacrificing this project for a nonexistent rail option or to “promote walkability,” as is stated in the Stop IH-45 Now mission statement is absolutely inane. It’s the kind of thinking that made Toronto replace Montreal as the primary city in Canada in a very short time. You’d be sacrificing for absolutely nothing but decreased economic activity. That may be A-OK for some of you, but surely you can acknowledge it is probably not a winning issue for the majority of residents in Houston, Texas. I wish everyone was like me, too, and decided not to replace a car after it was on its last leg, but I’m not delusional. The choices that you may think we have are false … i.e., they’re not real.

(All of the above with the “in my opinion” disclaimer, of course.)

They pulled a fast one with that survey. It gives no alternative options. Yes this has been developing for over a decade but so has the city. 10 years ago we didn’t have half the bike lanes we do, we didn’t have Buffalo Bayou Park, etc. So the mindset of Houstonians has changed too. The desire for a better quality of life has become much more apparent. The Kinder Institute even did a study that shows Houstonians want better transit, more walkability, etc. Some people were caught off guard because TxDOT sold them an idea that they were willing to accept because for so long they just went along with it and questioned nothing. TxDOT is finally being cornered and they aren’t showing their good side. You’re def seeing how entitled and spoiled they are. And that’s the bigger issue. It’s not that this project couldn’t work or benefit Houston in the long term. It’s the fact that this government entity who is supposed to work with the city in developing this is showing they don’t really care. All they care about are the temporary jobs its creating and their bottom line. My buddy works for TxDOT in Midland and he tells me all the time how much TxDOT outsources so many costs that balloon the cost of projects like this one all in the attempt to ask for more and more money. Enough is enough already. We have every right to question the true motives of these guys. Especially when it affects people and they livelihood. I know this forum is all about development and our love for this city and seeing it grow for the better but at some point you have to ask at what cost are we really doing all of this? It’s easy to say oh this needs to happen because it won’t affect me, but say that to those in 3rd Ward and 2nd Ward. 

Edited December 8, 2021 by j_cuevas713

[samagon]

9 hours ago, Big E said:

They aren't trying to do anything of the sort. This project has been in the works for the better part of a decade now, and has probably been in planning and back room discussions for longer. Nobody is getting blindsided by this. There have been multiple meetings and comment periods.

holy poop guys.

to pull a fast one has nothing to do with speed. the idiom simply means they are trying to gain an unfair advantage, or to deceive. 

the purpose of TXDoT is to bring as much money into the state from the federal government as possible for the smallest cost possible. the highway designs they provide are proof enough that this is their true purpose.

whether it is their intention or not, they certainly appear to be attempting to deceive people so they can maximize state funding for the minimal price.

9 hours ago, Big E said:

This will ultimately benefit the city, and either replace or retrofit crumbling infrastructure that is decades old and well past its functional use limit. This small group of "protestors" isn't doing anything particularly laudable in and of itself.

you and I disagree here. you don't fix traffic by creating more space for more traffic. you fix traffic by providing viable alternatives to what induces the traffic.

and if the goal is to fix crumbling infrastructure, then they should be working within the ROW they have to correct the issues, exactly what the rich people have forced TXDoT to do on the 610 loop west. when Afton Oaks successfully forced TXDoT to compromise their designs by not taking ROW from their neighborhood where were you all complaining of the greater good for the rest of the city?

Edited December 8, 2021 by samagon

[mattyt36]

8 hours ago, j_cuevas713 said:

They pulled a fast one with that survey. It gives no alternative options. Yes this has been developing for over a decade but so has the city. 10 years ago we didn’t have half the bike lanes we do, we didn’t have Buffalo Bayou Park, etc. So the mindset of Houstonians has changed too. The desire for a better quality of life has become much more apparent. The Kinder Institute even did a study that shows Houstonians want better transit, more walkability, etc. Some people were caught off guard because TxDOT sold them an idea that they were willing to accept because for so long they just went along with it and questioned nothing. TxDOT is finally being cornered and they aren’t showing their good side. You’re def seeing how entitled and spoiled they are. And that’s the bigger issue. It’s not that this project couldn’t work or benefit Houston in the long term. It’s the fact that this government entity who is supposed to work with the city in developing this is showing they don’t really care. All they care about are the temporary jobs its creating and their bottom line. My buddy works for TxDOT in Midland and he tells me all the time how much TxDOT outsources so many costs that balloon the cost of projects like this one all in the attempt to ask for more and more money. Enough is enough already. We have every right to question the true motives of these guys. Especially when it affects people and they livelihood. I know this forum is all about development and our love for this city and seeing it grow for the better but at some point you have to ask at what cost are we really doing all of this? It’s easy to say oh this needs to happen because it won’t affect me, but say that to those in 3rd Ward and 2nd Ward. 

I don't disagree with your assessment, but I do think that if you think the way to address these issues is to just stop the project, the approach is seriously flawed and is destined to fail.  Again, part of their mission is "to build capacity within Houston neighborhoods to stop the I-45 expansion."  WTH does that mean?  It sounds pretty creepy when you think about it.  As written, it betrays that none of this, at the end of the day, is originating from the community, but rather someone else going around trying to get the community to stop it.  This is why it is important to ask who is behind it and who is paying for it.  It's political malpractice if you ask me.

As you acknowledge, TxDOT is doing what it's always done.  It'd be a bit illogical IMO to expect them to do otherwise by default.  Plus, one has to also acknowledge that "doing what it's always done" is, at the end of the day, a creature of federal and state funding programs and related legislation.  In other words, they're working within the system.  And, guess what, they're doing that with the full support of their de facto CEO, Greg Abbott.  Stopping this project will do little more than stopping this project.  If TxDOT did it, I'd say the motives would definitely not be to "promote walkability," but rather to torpedo Lina Hidalgo.  As wise men and women say, be careful what you wish for.

None of the above is to say that community groups should not keep fighting in their interest to get their concerns addressed.  They'd be stupid not to.  But what's also stupid is expecting TxDOT, an agency that truly sees projects such as this at the heart of its mission, to turn around and say, "OOOOOOOPPPPPSSSS, our bad, we should have added a question to the survey about transit, and, dependent on the results of that survey, completely transfer money that we have no statutory authorization to do so to whatever "the people" say they want."   That would be illegal and bad governance.  It might have the outcome you want, but it's bad governance.

You talk about the mindset of Houstonians changing.  That's not because the things you referred to (bike lanes, etc.) got built . . . or, at least it wasn't the first step.  The first step was getting people in office who were oriented to such projects to begin with. You can rest assured that if Tony Buzbee were elected, policy towards these issues would be at risk, and it would have little to do with a shift in public opinion.  (A survey might be used to indicate otherwise, if it had throwaway questions like, "Hey, Houstonian, would you like better transit?"  I mean, as my grandmother used to say, sweet Jesus, how do you expect people to answer?  You're smarter than that.)

Likewise, the best way to change the policy is to work towards changing the administration at the State level, i.e., "turning Texas blue."  That could give you the platform you want (I say "could," because of course it's no guarantee).  It's inherently flawed to link all of this to one project, with a very small number (at the end of the day) of affected people. 

[mattyt36]

1 hour ago, samagon said:

holy poop guys.

to pull a fast one has nothing to do with speed. the idiom simply means they are trying to gain an unfair advantage, or to deceive. 

It has "nothing" to do with speed?  It means "deceive"?  Really?  No poop, as you might say.  It's a metaphor.  (Indeed, we're getting meta here.)  

In any case, why use the word "fast"?  How about a dealer doing things with sleight of hand?  C'mon.  How do you think it originated?

And, it is indeed an idiom, but what you have provided here is the definition, not the etymology.  Big difference.

Holy poop indeed.

1 hour ago, samagon said:

whether it is their intention or not, they certainly appear to be attempting to deceive people so they can maximize state funding for the minimal price.

People keep on saying that, but I still don't know what they mean.  But maybe I'm missing something.  I shouldn't expect samagon to explain to me, is there anyone else out there who can encapsulate what this means?

Edited December 8, 2021 by mattyt36

[mattyt36]

1 hour ago, samagon said:

you and I disagree here. you don't fix traffic by creating more space for more traffic. you fix traffic by providing viable alternatives to what induces the traffic.

This is fair and logical.  But, I'm sorry, it's completely oblivious to politics.

Transportation is, indeed, induced demand to get from point A to point B (except for the not insignificant population of transportation nerds.)

Sure it's about supply and where that supply goes, but if you're making an argument to induce demand elsewhere, you're talking about some situation in which, at the end of the day, changes the character of, say, point B by making it less accessible.  Sure that may shift demand around but don't be surprised when it p*sses off a lot of people in point B, and, for that reason, may not happen in a run-of-the-mill Western democratic system.

I don't know why this is so damned difficult to even acknowledge.  These things are not independent.

1 hour ago, samagon said:

and if the goal is to fix crumbling infrastructure, then they should be working within the ROW they have to correct the issues, exactly what the rich people have forced TXDoT to do on the 610 loop west. when Afton Oaks successfully forced TXDoT to compromise their designs by not taking ROW from their neighborhood where were you all complaining of the greater good for the rest of the city?

I don't necessarily follow the logic "fix crumbling infrastructure"=contain yourself within existing ROW.  First off, it's flawed because TxDOT's stated goal has never been solely fixing crumbling infrastructure, but to provide additional capacity, too (including transit!).

But you ask a fantastic question about 610.  But to have an appropriate and educated debate about that project versus IH-45, it would be helpful if someone, say, put up some numbers for comparison as to the number of displaced residents, businesses, and the cost.  I could be wrong, but my sense is that project was in a different league.

Regardless, I'm not sure why anyone is surprised that those who have more political influence are more easily able to obtain desired political outcomes.  I mean the statement as written is a truism.  Why is anyone surprised?  It's certainly not "fair" by any reasonable philosophical standard.  You may not like it, but you sure as hell don't fix the problem by stopping the NHHIP.

Edited December 8, 2021 by mattyt36

[JJxvi]

The "racial injustice" or "social justice" component of this is really just a dogwhistle that more effectively gets the attention of some of the current powers that be (especially those far away, like the federal government) than just general "we don't like freeways" on its own would.  In sections 1 and 2, the project is happening where it is because the freeway already exists there, they aren't deciding to ram it through because of who lives there. 

Similar projects have already been completed in the last 30 years on highways that could be considered  mostly blue collar white (northwest freeway) and both of the highways that run through the richest, whitest parts of town (west loop and katy freeway). 

Fighting to kill the entire project seems more counterproductive to me than fighting to fix specific problems.

Edited December 8, 2021 by JJxvi

[samagon]

15 minutes ago, JJxvi said:

The "racial injustice" or "social justice" component of this is really just a dogwhistle that more effectively gets the attention of some of the current powers that be (especially those far away, like the federal government) than just general "we don't like freeways" on its own would.  In sections 1 and 2, the project is happening where it is because the freeway already exists there, they aren't deciding to ram it through because of who lives there. 

Similar projects have already been completed in the last 30 years on highways that could be considered  mostly blue collar white (northwest freeway) and both of the highways that run through the richest, whitest parts of town (west loop and katy freeway). 

Fighting to kill the entire project seems more counterproductive to me than fighting to fix specific problems.

i10 the ROW already existed, they took over land from the RR that ran right alongside the freeway. that was convenient and why there wasn't a lot of fighting about the ROW expansion. 

610 is a great example of TXDoT being forced to fit within the existing ROW by rich people who fought back against TXDoT. it's actually a very good example of the exact injustice, the reality is that it is not racial, but socioeconomic injustice, and it just so happens that the poor people that live in those areas being run roughshod by TXDoT are minority in addition to poor, a double whammy. 

[JJxvi]

Quote

i10 the ROW already existed, they took over land from the RR that ran right alongside the freeway. that was convenient and why there wasn't a lot of fighting about the ROW expansion. 

You are very mistaken.  The Katy Freeway row expansion was not just the railroad ROW that already existed, and even in those areas where both railroad ROW and old katy road ROW existed, the highway ROW expanded even beyond those boundaries.  Over 1000 homes and business were subject to eminent domain between beltway 8 and 610, which is the richest area abutting a highway in the city.  In Spring Valley between Blalock and Bingle, I think two entire rows of single family homes are gone now.  You can still see the blank area near the freeway where the homes used to be in an aerial on like google maps (see the park area where the culdesacs of Teresa Dr and Ben Hur Dr. end), but that land is just the northernmost line of homes.  There was another line of homes demolished that would be way out into where the main lanes are now. Where the Katy feeder road is now was actually a residential street with neighborhood houses on the south edge and then the railroad beyond that before you got to the highway. 

 

I recommend you open google earth if you have it, turn on the road layer which shows where the modern roads are, and then take the imagery back to 1995 and just look at all of the stuff that freeway and its feeder road blasts through.  The impact was very significant

The NHHIP, I believe might have more significant total number of impacts, but I dont think it does when you're talking about just sections 1 and 2.

Edited December 8, 2021 by JJxvi

[JJxvi]

The other interesting obvious Katy Freeway scar that comes to mind every time I drive by it are the Ivy Club Apartments just east of Gessner north of the freeway.  There's these weird apartment buildings fronting the highway with like a big grassy lawn in front of them. And the building have strange gable roofs facing the highway at each end.  What you're actually seeing is the only the back side of what used be square shaped buildings with a central courtyard.  Those buildings used to extend out into the freeway by roughly the same distance as they are long.  The gables are where the wings that extended south on each side of the squares were attached.  I also always find interesting that they went with a weird "yard" rather no trees or parking or anything there.  I'm guessing that ever since the freeway was built, the owner has had redevelopment rather than spending any more money on it, but it still seems like they would have paved that for parking or something. 

[samagon]

15 minutes ago, JJxvi said:

You are very mistaken.  The Katy Freeway row expansion was not just the railroad ROW that already existed, and even in those areas where both railroad ROW and old katy road ROW existed, the highway ROW expanded even beyond those boundaries.  Over 1000 homes and business were subject to eminent domain between beltway 8 and 610, which is the richest area abutting a highway in the city.  In Spring Valley between Blalock and Bingle, I think two entire rows of single family homes are gone now.  You can still see the blank area near the freeway where the homes used to be in an aerial on like google maps (see the park area where the culdesacs of Teresa Dr and Ben Hur Dr. end), but that land is just the northernmost line of homes.  There was another line of homes demolished that would be way out into where the main lanes are now. Where the Katy feeder road is now was actually a residential street with neighborhood houses on the south edge and then the railroad beyond that before you got to the highway. 

 

I recommend you open google earth if you have it, turn on the road layer which shows where the modern roads are, and then take the imagery back to 1995 and just look at all of the stuff that freeway and its feeder road blasts through.  The impact was very significant

The NHHIP, I believe might have more significant total number of impacts, but I dont think it does when you're talking about just sections 1 and 2.

thanks for that, I (clearly) didn't know that. certainly eye opening. 

so it looks like we definitely have an example of TXDoT getting more ROW through an affluent area, TXDoT not getting more ROW through an affluent area, and TXDoT wanting to get ROW in a very not affluent area.

[Big E]

1 hour ago, samagon said:

610 is a great example of TXDoT being forced to fit within the existing ROW by rich people who fought back against TXDoT. it's actually a very good example of the exact injustice, the reality is that it is not racial, but socioeconomic injustice, and it just so happens that the poor people that live in those areas being run roughshod by TXDoT are minority in addition to poor, a double whammy. 

It wasn't just rich people though. Many of the exact same urban interests, including the infamous Sheila Jackson-Lee, opposed 610's expansion and killed that project. Saying it was just "rich white people" who opposed it is simply not true. And 610 has suffered for it ever since.

 

7 hours ago, samagon said:

you don't fix traffic by creating more space for more traffic. you fix traffic by providing viable alternatives to what induces the traffic.

You seem to ignore that the viable alternatives can include building an alternate freeway to carry that traffic and splitting the capacity. In any case, the NHHIP isn't entirely, or even mostly about improving actual capacity. The mainline freeway lanes are not going to see new lanes added though like 90% of the project.

For Segment 1, the most controversial segment, there will be no mainline freeway lanes added at all. They will add a lane to each frontage road, and they will add three managed/express/tolled lanes in the middle of the freeway, to have two express lanes going in each direction, like with the Katy freeway. The main lanes will be mainly reconstructed because of their age.

For Segment 2, they will mainly be rebuilding this portion because of how old it is, and fixing some of its design flaws, like low bridges. They will also add a lane to segments of the frontage road that aren't three lanes already, and I think add maybe one lane. they will also extend the four managed lanes to this segment.

For Segment 3, most of this segment adds no lanes at all, but constructs all new freeways to replace older ones that will be demolished. Only the part of Segment 3 that includes the interchange of 288 and I-69 will see any lanes added (it will be expanded from eight to twelve.

 

7 hours ago, samagon said:

and if the goal is to fix crumbling infrastructure, then they should be working within the ROW they have to correct the issues

What if what they are trying to correct can't be corrected within the ROW they have?

 

7 hours ago, samagon said:

when Afton Oaks successfully forced TXDoT to compromise their designs by not taking ROW from their neighborhood where were you all complaining of the greater good for the rest of the city?

I wouldn't have been old enough to care at that time, but had I been? Yeah, because its stupid that one neighborhood can stop a major regional project. 

 

7 hours ago, samagon said:

to pull a fast one has nothing to do with speed. the idiom simply means they are trying to gain an unfair advantage, or to deceive.

Except you really haven't explained how they are trying to do that.

 

1 hour ago, samagon said:

i10 the ROW already existed, they took over land from the RR that ran right alongside the freeway. that was convenient and why there wasn't a lot of fighting about the ROW expansion. 

And yet there are still people who opposed even that freeway expansion, because the issue wasn't (just) the ROW acquisition; they just didn't want to expand the freeway because they opposed freeways in general. And, as has been elucidated, there was indeed ROW acquisition that effected residential homes.

 

14 hours ago, j_cuevas713 said:

10 years ago we didn’t have half the bike lanes we do, we didn’t have Buffalo Bayou Park, etc. So the mindset of Houstonians has changed too. The desire for a better quality of life has become much more apparent. The Kinder Institute even did a study that shows Houstonians want better transit, more walkability, etc.

This project does not at all affect Houston's transit situation. That is handed by Metro, not TxDOT. In fact, this rebuilding of I-45 is supposed to make room for new transit infrastructure in the future, so this project actually helps Houston's transit situation. Transit and freeways can and should coexist. Not everyone in Houston will use transit (in fact most won't) and this freeway doesn't just serve Houston traffic, but regional, state, national, and international traffic.

14 hours ago, j_cuevas713 said:

TxDOT is finally being cornered and they aren’t showing their good side. You’re def seeing how entitled and spoiled they are.

How are they being entitled and spoiled?

 

14 hours ago, j_cuevas713 said:

My buddy works for TxDOT in Midland and he tells me all the time how much TxDOT outsources so many costs that balloon the cost of projects like this one all in the attempt to ask for more and more money.

And? That's basically how the government works. You don't think Metro or the City of Houston itself doesn't do the same thing when a major project happens? I'm more surprised you think this is some major revelation.

 

14 hours ago, j_cuevas713 said:

We have every right to question the true motives of these guys. Especially when it affects people and they livelihood.

I think their motives are pretty transparent. This road is a mess, preventative maintenance to keep it running is becoming prohibitive, so they want to fix the issue. They figured adding managed lanes, burying freeways, and removing the Pierce Elevated would get them in people's good graces. Boy were they wrong.

 

14 hours ago, j_cuevas713 said:

I know this forum is all about development and our love for this city and seeing it grow for the better but at some point you have to ask at what cost are we really doing all of this?

That's a perfectly reasonable position to have. I'd say the cost is low for what they are actually doing with this project.

 

14 hours ago, j_cuevas713 said:

It’s easy to say oh this needs to happen because it won’t affect me, but say that to those in 3rd Ward and 2nd Ward.

While I feel for the people losing their homes, I in no way believe that that's enough to stop or delay this project further. Most of the losses are rental apartments (where the renters can just rent somewhere else), housing projects that will be torn down anyway, and the types of freeway focused business nobody will miss (your gas stations, car lots, lower end hotels and motels, restaurants, big box stores, etc.).

Edited December 8, 2021 by Big E

[mattyt36]

Well I see the County Judge met with the SecTrans today as noted in this cryptic tweet, which, at the end of the day, really doesn't say much, which is why politicians always speak in platitudes.

Great meeting with Transportation Secretary @PeteButtigieg today in DC. We’re working towards a paradigm shift on transportation in Harris County, to a system that prioritizes people over cars. Glad to have a partner in @SecretaryPete who shares and supports that vision.

All I can say is that if the end result is something that convinces both sides that they "won," while also getting additional federal monies for other transportation projects, that's a great outcome.