Midtown Homeless Situation

[houstonmacbro]

Some of these guys are homeless and some are people who make little money and get the free food given at various places to stetch thie money. There is a vegeterian feed four nights a week downtown and a few of the ones there are students.

Can't some students be down on their luck too ... I know when I was in undergrad I was always hungry.

Scoping out a free meal was the name of the game.

[MetroMogul]

I agree with you. They do need to go away. They serve no purpose in our society.

That's an interesting statement, good sir. I have to ask then, what makes you better than a homeless bum using his trousers as a toilet and a sidewalk as a bed? I mean, you most likely have a cookie cutter McJob, which provides a cookie cutter life for you and your family (if you have one). With the right training and skills (not even college), I'm quite certain the homeless bum you are turning your nose up at can do your job just as well as you, if not better. I mean, think about it; if you didn't exist there'd be some other stiff in your position, some other man pleasing your girl/wife/male partner and your parents would just love someone else. With that said, what exactly are you contributing to this society that is so worthwhile? This society doesn't need you or your meager contribtutions to function. If you were dead, this world and civilization would continue to operate without skipping a beat. Now, isn't that amazing? You're no more useful to this society than a homeless person as you and your skillset are wholly replaceable and interchangeable with someone else. The only real difference between you and a bum is that the bum does not have the means to vocally express and display anger at your worthlessness.

[MetroMogul]

While some of these comments were probably in jest.. there is only so much tolerance to go around.. and I've run out..

There have been bums/vagrants/hobos/human debris since the beginning of time.. No amount of compassion is going rid them of their lifestyle or habits.. or mental disease..

Compassion to me is defined as to help someone get out of a situation where they no longer need handouts..

Giving a hobo a buck for a drink or a cig does not get them out of their sitation, it prolongs it.

Shelters which provide good and/or sleep with no job training does not get them out of their situation, it prolongs it.

Then you have the change the attitudes of those who don't want help.. that is.. to be indepenent of hand-outs.. And this is the hardest part becuase you can't change someone who doesn't want to change.. (BELIEVE IN CHANGE!! WOO!! /sarc..)

So I will not give a buck to those who do not want to help themselves..If you don't want to help yourself, then you are not a productive member of society.. I don't want to see you.. Get in the railcar and go to Katy.

If they have a mental disorder.. then perhaps all this money being spent on shelters could be diverted into housing at a mental facility where they can get proper treatment..

IMHO hobos are as much an eyesore as grafitti, maybe more so.. If the city was serious, "Bonez" White would pass an ordinance to fine property owners who put up with the hobos on their property.. but since most of them live in city owned parks, I don't see this ever happening.

I am not Jesus.. I'm not the holy roller who has to be compassionate like him.. I'm a realist.. I want my city to be livable and be able to enjoy parks and outdoor recreation with my kids without the smell of urine permeating the air and some ____ stained human debris asking me for another handout.

No thanks.. I already paid my taxes..

Stop, just stop, lol. Your righteous indignation is hilarious! You, my friend, in your bubble, cannot and never will understand the gravity of the situation. Just know that the average American is only three domino tumbles from being under a bridge themselves. And you whine about the handouts but then you fail to grasp the fact that if these "mental institutions" are to be built, YOU, the taxpayer will be funding them at a cost much more than $1 handed over to a bum. It's simple math really, even pee stained human debris could have figured that one out.

And what's with this tax payer elitism anyways? You pay taxes, I pay taxes, bums even pay taxes when they buy that 40 ounce. Stop throwing it out there in arguments or impassioned rants like the whole of society is on the back of your paltry contributions.

[RedScare]

That's an interesting statement, good sir. I have to ask then, what makes you better than a homeless bum using his trousers as a toilet and a sidewalk as a bed? I mean, you most likely have a cookie cutter McJob, which provides a cookie cutter life for you and your family (if you have one). With the right training and skills (not even college), I'm quite certain the homeless bum you are turning your nose up at can do your job just as well as you, if not better. I mean, think about it; if you didn't exist there'd be some other stiff in your position, some other man pleasing your girl/wife/male partner and your parents would just love someone else. With that said, what exactly are you contributing to this society that is so worthwhile? This society doesn't need you or your meager contribtutions to function. If you were dead, this world and civilization would continue to operate without skipping a beat. Now, isn't that amazing? You're no more useful to this society than a homeless person as you and your skillset are wholly replaceable and interchangeable with someone else. The only real difference between you and a bum is that the bum does not have the means to vocally express and display anger at your worthlessness.

Dude, that is deep (and downright sobering). Do you come up with these gems while riding the metro, or are you just naturally gifted at seeing through the fluff and BS that is modern day America and arriving at the essence of life? I've been baiting the homeless haters for awhile (my first full=blown HAIF rant was on a homeless thread 3 years ago), but none cut straight to the chase like this.

Hat tip to ya.

Edited July 12, 2008 by RedScare

[houstonmacbro]

That's an interesting statement, good sir. I have to ask then, what makes you better than a homeless bum using his trousers as a toilet and a sidewalk as a bed? I mean, you most likely have a cookie cutter McJob, which provides a cookie cutter life for you and your family (if you have one). With the right training and skills (not even college), I'm quite certain the homeless bum you are turning your nose up at can do your job just as well as you, if not better. I mean, think about it; if you didn't exist there'd be some other stiff in your position, some other man pleasing your girl/wife/male partner and your parents would just love someone else. With that said, what exactly are you contributing to this society that is so worthwhile? This society doesn't need you or your meager contribtutions to function. If you were dead, this world and civilization would continue to operate without skipping a beat. Now, isn't that amazing? You're no more useful to this society than a homeless person as you and your skillset are wholly replaceable and interchangeable with someone else. The only real difference between you and a bum is that the bum does not have the means to vocally express and display anger at your worthlessness.

And they certainly don't have the means or the ability to defend themselves here.

Dude, that is deep (and downright sobering). Do you come up with these gems while riding the metro, or are you just naturally gifted at seeing through the fluff and BS that is modern day America and arriving at the essence of life? I've been baiting the homeless haters for awhile (my first full=blown HAIF rant was on a homeless thread 3 years ago), but none cut straight to the chase like this.

Hat tip to ya.

Amen. So many people seem like they are so much better than everyone else because of their income or neighborhood. It is a common thread that runs through many of these threads.

[barracuda]

That's an interesting statement, good sir. I have to ask then, what makes you better than a homeless bum using his trousers as a toilet and a sidewalk as a bed? I mean, you most likely have a cookie cutter McJob, which provides a cookie cutter life for you and your family (if you have one). With the right training and skills (not even college), I'm quite certain the homeless bum you are turning your nose up at can do your job just as well as you, if not better. I mean, think about it; if you didn't exist there'd be some other stiff in your position, some other man pleasing your girl/wife/male partner and your parents would just love someone else. With that said, what exactly are you contributing to this society that is so worthwhile? This society doesn't need you or your meager contribtutions to function. If you were dead, this world and civilization would continue to operate without skipping a beat. Now, isn't that amazing? You're no more useful to this society than a homeless person as you and your skillset are wholly replaceable and interchangeable with someone else. The only real difference between you and a bum is that the bum does not have the means to vocally express and display anger at your worthlessness.

A harsh response to a harsh comment.

But in LTAWACS's defense (since you are the homeless advocate), I would think employment, education, literacy, salary, home ownership, etc. would count for something in our capitalist society. If you were to ask any economist or politician, taxpayers with McJobs are pretty important to our society. They are contributors to the system, whereas the homeless usually draw from the system. I know that's a generalization, as it can go both ways, but overall, that is the big picture. But I guess your point is that the system sucks?

[MetroMogul]

A harsh response to a harsh comment.

But in LTAWACS's defense (since you are the homeless advocate), I would think employment, education, literacy, salary, home ownership, etc. would count for something in our capitalist society. If you were to ask any economist or politician, taxpayers with McJobs are pretty important to our society. They are contributors to the system, whereas the homeless usually draw from the system. I know that's a generalization, as it can go both ways, but overall, that is the big picture. But I guess your point is that the system sucks?

No, my point is to say that this little man should not say that someone should "go away" because he feels they do not contribute anything to society when he himself contributes little or nothing. Even his smug, elisitist attitude can be duplicated. He is not special in any way, shape or form and if he were to die, who would care? He has the same value and worth of a homeless man.

[MetroMogul]

And no Red, I don't come up with these gems on the Metro. I'm too busy worrying about getting to work on time. I just see posts like that and have to respond. Alot of people live in these little bubbles and they understand little how the world really works and operates. They have their nice office McJob, they have a decent six figure income, a pretentious apartment in the new trendy urban cluster, and a mildly attractive spouse and they feel the world is their oyster and they have mastered and gained full understanding of all of it's various complex problems when in fact they are the least informed and knowledgeable. When "go away" is presented as a viable option to deal with a problem on such a grand scale as the homeless, I realize I am dealing with very developmentally challenged "adults." Any child past the age of three could come up with a better solution. Wealth and elitism does not a smart person make.

[crunchtastic]

So little separates us. Every time someone calls me an 'ignorant liberal delicate flower' -- and it happens a lot-- I think of our good friend Texas Vines, and speculate as to what his particular contribution is.

Everyone is transient, and replaceable. We are not unique and beautiful snowflakes.

[20thStDad]

Turns out you don't have to choose between inviting them into your home or eradicating off the face of the earth, there are actually many feelings/opinions between those. Jeez, some of you people just let your minds go wild with these things. I don't like homeless people pandering and dirtying things up, and no I don't really feel sorry for them because I get to be detached. I don't know any of them. Pick one and tell me his story about how he totally got screwed in life and yeah I might feel sorry. Then again, find one who was a criminal or lazy ass to get himself homeless, and I really won't care that he's in the situation he's in. I'm not about to believe ALL homeless people are victims. I would say most made their own beds, which is why they have none.

MetroMogul, it has nothing to do with anyone's so-called "McJob". Past that, you make it sound like someone's contribution to the world and society is completely tied to their occupation. Being a contributing member of a family or friendships is maybe even more important than whatever daily grind brings home the bacon. You can say we're all "no different on the inside" until you are blue in the face. Yeah, deep down maybe no one is "better" than anyone else. But your ACTIONS do matter. You can be the best person in the world, but if you trash the neighborhood, piss everywhere, and spend every cent you beg for on booze then you just aren't living up to it.

EDIT: I should post what I think should be done instead of just ranting. I think there should be better programs to get these people to work. Jobs are the answer, not endless handouts. If they aren't motivated enough to work themselves out of their situation then they deserve to remain in it. Every day I see dozens of day laborers who would do anything for a job. I bet you they don't live in a nice place either. But they know they have to WORK to improve their situation, they don't sit at the corner all day asking for it to magically come to them for nothing.

Edited July 13, 2008 by 20thStDad

[memebag]

You can be the best person in the world, but if you trash the neighborhood, piss everywhere, and spend every cent you beg for on booze then you just aren't living up to it.

Wasn't it Jesus who said "Do something useful, or get off my planet"?

[TexasVines]

Wasn't it Jesus who said "Do something useful, or get off my planet"?

I love it when people who have no use for religion try and toss others religion in their face

I always ask if man is like every other animal what prevents me from doing what a great deal of other animals do and just killing bums and eating them or pouncing on them and humping on them to show dominance and running them out of my territory and taking their breeding partner for myself

they really never have an answer because in general they are clueless.....that is why they needed to toss out their religious strawman in the first place

[crunchtastic]

I love it when people who have no use for religion try and toss others religion in their face

I always ask if man is like every other animal what prevents me from doing what a great deal of other animals do and just killing bums and eating them or pouncing on them and humping on them to show dominance and running them out of my territory and taking their breeding partner for myself

they really never have an answer because in general they are clueless.....that is why they needed to toss out their religious strawman in the first place

That's a quaint story, but I don't see how it has anything to do with unproductive yahoos shutting the hell up.

Jesus would like some peace and quiet for a change. !

[RedScare]

And no Red, I don't come up with these gems on the Metro. I'm too busy worrying about getting to work on time. I just see posts like that and have to respond. Alot of people live in these little bubbles and they understand little how the world really works and operates. They have their nice office McJob, they have a decent six figure income, a pretentious apartment in the new trendy urban cluster, and a mildly attractive spouse and they feel the world is their oyster and they have mastered and gained full understanding of all of it's various complex problems when in fact they are the least informed and knowledgeable. When "go away" is presented as a viable option to deal with a problem on such a grand scale as the homeless, I realize I am dealing with very developmentally challenged "adults." Any child past the age of three could come up with a better solution. Wealth and elitism does not a smart person make.

Preaching to the choir, brother.

As an aside to 20th Street, Metro (if I may speak for him) made his remarks about the McJob because, if you read though these posts, you will find a recurring theme amongst the haters (for lack of a better term) that their taxes paid (based on their income earned) entitles them to a world devoid of homeless persons. That because they chose the trendy environs of Midtown...and pay taxes...that the homeless should 'go away'. Better yet, many of these otherwise libertarian types believe that laws should be enacted and enforced to remove this visual blight from their presence, and it all should be done at no cost to themselves.

A few examples...

Zippy, whose post attracted Metro's ire, ended his rant with the statement, "No thanks.. I already paid my taxes..", thereby letting everyone know that, because he pays taxes, he has more right to demand that offensive human blight be removed from his presence. Barracuda, in defense of Ltawacs, stated, "I would think employment, education, literacy, salary, home ownership, etc. would count for something in our capitalist society." As in, if money and wealth does not entitle one to demand the removal of unwanted humans from our midst, what good is it?

I can't help but think of the airport analogy when reading these comments. Like the airport runway that was in place before people bought homes in the flight path, Midtown was full of homeless drug addicts and low level criminals long before the first developer thrust the capitalist flag into the earth to claim for the nouveau hipster elites. It begs the question, what did you EXPECT to find when you moved into the inner city?

[musicman]

When "go away" is presented as a viable option to deal with a problem on such a grand scale as the homeless, I realize I am dealing with very developmentally challenged "adults."

tell that to city council who just a couple of yrs ago expanded the civility ordinance.

[barracuda]

Barracuda, in defense of Ltawacs, stated, "I would think employment, education, literacy, salary, home ownership, etc. would count for something in our capitalist society." As in, if money and wealth does not entitle one to demand the removal of unwanted humans from our midst, what good is it?

Red, you completely mangled my point. I was responding to MetroMogul's claim that someone with a McJob has nothing more to contribute to society than your average homeless person. My point is that most economists and politicians would disagree. Jobs are pretty important. I bet everyone on HAIF has a job and contributes to our economy. We don't live in a hunter-gatherer society.

I never said anything about removing "unwanted humans". That is just callous.

I can't help but think of the airport analogy when reading these comments. Like the airport runway that was in place before people bought homes in the flight path, Midtown was full of homeless drug addicts and low level criminals long before the first developer thrust the capitalist flag into the earth to claim for the nouveau hipster elites. It begs the question, what did you EXPECT to find when you moved into the inner city?

You're right, Midtown went from a third-world crime zone to neighborhood in transition. By most measures, this would be considered a good thing. But if you want to advocate for drug addicts and criminals, that's your choice. You make this too easy.

[20thStDad]

As an aside to 20th Street, Metro (if I may speak for him) made his remarks about the McJob because, if you read though these posts, you will find a recurring theme amongst the haters (for lack of a better term) that their taxes paid (based on their income earned) entitles them to a world devoid of homeless persons. That because they chose the trendy environs of Midtown...and pay taxes...that the homeless should 'go away'. Better yet, many of these otherwise libertarian types believe that laws should be enacted and enforced to remove this visual blight from their presence, and it all should be done at no cost to themselves.

I agree with you and MetroMogul on that point then. Just because you have a job and have a nice tight control on your life and space doesn't mean you are entitled to "wish away" others out of the world. I do believe though that the simple fact that someone is working and at least supporting themselves is a good thing compared to someone who can't or won't, regardless of where the fault lies. It's a bit of a silly argument though (congratulations! you fed yourself and wiped your own arse today!! - not very impressive), and I'm not trying to justify anyone's previous arguments.

I don't think the bums should just be murdered and fed to livestock as TexasVines would like to do, I just think there could be programs in place that not only help the bums but help the rest of us too, by making them productive in some manner. There are TONS of easy, crappy jobs out there that anyone can do, and if you are homeless, guess what, you may have just bought yourself a ticket to the modern day poor farm (other HAIF topic), whatever that might be.

[MetroMogul]

Red, you completely mangled my point. I was responding to MetroMogul's claim that someone with a McJob has nothing more to contribute to society than your average homeless person. My point is that most economists and politicians would disagree. Jobs are pretty important. I bet everyone on HAIF has a job and contributes to our economy. We don't live in a hunter-gatherer society.

I never said anything about removing "unwanted humans". That is just callous.

You're right, Midtown went from a third-world crime zone to neighborhood in transition. By most measures, this would be considered a good thing. But if you want to advocate for drug addicts and criminals, that's your choice. You make this too easy.

What does LTAWACS offer as an individual? If he can't lay claim to any specific contribution that would not exist if say, he were dead, he is no more useful than a homeless bum which can just as easily be replaced by another on the street. He can't be the arbiter of who is or who is not a contributor to this society if he himself can offer no unique gifts, which he doesn't so I think he should clam up and be thankful his three dominoes have yet to tumble.

And Red is not advocating for the criminal elements and drug addicts and you well know this. The extremism and hyperbole here is rampant, annoying and childish. You have the debating skills of a seven year old. I can only imagine you putting your hands on your hips with a Bart Simpson smirk after typing your reply. I guess I'll give you credit for being on par with a 10 year old. But I digress, what Red was stating is that the element you all wish to eliminate was there long before cheap cookie cutter town homes and apartments were built. Just because your average bum sees a "Coming Soon - Pretentious Dwellings" sign planted into his encampment does not mean that he will inform his brethren that it's time to go so bubble encased hipsters can live in their little world without the intrusions of that little pesky creature called reality informing them that no, the world does not revolve around the general vicinity of 2222 Smith and whole mountains (or long time bus stations) will not be moved to make it happen.

[20thStDad]

What does LTAWACS offer as an individual? If he can't lay claim to any specific contribution that would not exist if say, he were dead, he is no more useful than a homeless bum which can just as easily be replaced by another on the street. He can't be the arbiter of who is or who is not a contributor to this society if he himself can offer no unique gifts, which he doesn't so I think he should clam up and be thankful his three dominoes have yet to tumble.

And Red is not advocating for the criminal elements and drug addicts and you well know this. The extremism and hyperbole here is rampant, annoying and childish. You have the debating skills of a seven year old. I can only imagine you putting your hands on your hips with a Bart Simpson smirk after typing your reply. I guess I'll give you credit for being on par with a 10 year old. But I digress, what Red was stating is that the element you all wish to eliminate was there long before cheap cookie cutter town homes and apartments were built. Just because your average bum sees a "Coming Soon - Pretentious Dwellings" sign planted into his encampment does not mean that he will inform his brethren that it's time to go so bubble encased hipsters can live in their little world without the intrusions of that little pesky creature called reality informing them that no, the world does not revolve around the general vicinity of 2222 Smith and whole mountains (or long time bus stations) will not be moved to make it happen.

I agree with you that the eradication of the homeless is a dumb argument to make, and that people can't move into places in transition and expect Eden. BUT, you only keep mentioning a person's job as their worth. A person's worth and contribution is better measured by relationships and the people they interact with. I bet you it's an easy comparison that the person with a job and family provides more in that arena than does the homeless person.

[ricco67]

Boy, this thread is fun!

'scuse me while I get more popcorn!

[MetroMogul]

I agree with you that the eradication of the homeless is a dumb argument to make, and that people can't move into places in transition and expect Eden. BUT, you only keep mentioning a person's job as their worth. A person's worth and contribution is better measured by relationships and the people they interact with. I bet you it's an easy comparison that the person with a job and family provides more in that arena than does the homeless person.

So, are you trying to infer that a homeless person has no job or family? It's those stereotypical arguments that allowed me to make my original statement in the first place.

And measuring a person's "worth" by relationships and interactions is faulty as well seeing as how you have no knowledge of a homeless person other than the fact that you are extremely angry that he dare foul your air with his presence. What he was contributing to society before his downfall is obviously of little or no consequence to you. For all you know, that bum could have been a fireman who saved countless lives, but because now, for whatever reason, his dominoes have tumbled and he's homeless all of a sudden his worth is less than some arrogant yuppie? Give me a break. This just shows how black and white most people view complex issues. Many seem to think of the homeless as mentally ill or just lazy people getting what they deserve. But I suppose that's how you all can turn your nose up at them and still sleep at night. You'd have to change your way of thinking if you actually looked at them as persons comparable to yourselves.

[20thStDad]

So, are you trying to infer that a homeless person has no job or family? It's those stereotypical arguments that allowed me to make my original statement in the first place.

And measuring a person's "worth" by relationships and interactions is faulty as well seeing as how you have no knowledge of a homeless person other than the fact that you are extremely angry that he dare foul your air with his presence. What he was contributing to society before his downfall is obviously of little or no consequence to you. For all you know, that bum could have been a fireman who saved countless lives, but because now, for whatever reason, his dominoes have tumbled and he's homeless all of a sudden his worth is less than some arrogant yuppie? Give me a break. This just shows how black and white most people view complex issues. Many seem to think of the homeless as mentally ill or just lazy people getting what they deserve. But I suppose that's how you all can turn your nose up at them and still sleep at night. You'd have to change your way of thinking if you actually looked at them as persons comparable to yourselves.

I think it's safe to infer that a homeless person has no job and no family or friends who care much about them. I can say this based on the numerous instances of someone I know coming up on hard times and either a friend or family taking them in to help out. Hell, we even had a 50 something year old alumni who was "homeless" come live at the fraternity house (as we were working to get it up to fire code) while he found work and got himself out of the hole he was in. And he lived in Georgia before he came back to LA. So yeah, people with the initiative and willingness to get themselves out of their situation can most certainly do so. The "career homeless" I don't believe fall into this category at all.

It takes a lot of work to become homeless, including exhausting all resources available to you in the friend/family department. Do you know any different? Talk about arrogance, you are the only one with the arrogant tone here. If you'd pay attention I never said they weren't worth anything, and I never said I can't stand their presence - so I assume you are talking to someone else on that. I am one in favor of helping them here. I never said they were worth any less than a yuppie, but in their current state you're damn right they are contributing less. So what? They still deserve help. Are you saying that only the homeless who used to be a fireman hero deserves the help? Your notion of the worth of a human shouldn't exclude them, based on your previous arguments it would appear you think that way.

I still don't feel sorry for them in general, but if I heard a few of their individual stories I bet I would. I'm not out on a crusade trying to save them, you can fault me for that if you want. But I'll vote for whatever comes up to help them out, if it involves them working themselves back on their feet. Unless you are giving half of your income away to them or harboring one or more in your place right now you don't have much room to talk either.

[barracuda]

What does LTAWACS offer as an individual? If he can't lay claim to any specific contribution that would not exist if say, he were dead, he is no more useful than a homeless bum which can just as easily be replaced by another on the street. He can't be the arbiter of who is or who is not a contributor to this society if he himself can offer no unique gifts, which he doesn't so I think he should clam up and be thankful his three dominoes have yet to tumble.

That's a strange argument. You seem to feel that most individuals are of little value, unless they can identify specific contributions they make to society, excluding jobs, friends and families. This is an awfully dark and depressing view of society. I would argue that a job, friends and family, as well as volunteering or donating to charities count as contributions to society. Not everyone can contribute to the level of Mahatma Gandhi or Abraham Lincoln, but most people contribute obscurely in smaller but important ways.

Now a homeless person may be a past or future contributor, or he may be neither. That doesn't make the person any more or less human, but I would argue that most homeless draw from society more often than they give back. And the people with the McJobs are typically the ones who are working 40-60 hours a week and giving to charities or religions that should be helping these homeless people. So, by that definition, I think it's logical to argue that someone like LTAWACS is a greater contributor to society than your average homeless person.

You have the debating skills of a seven year old.

I guess I'll give you credit for being on par with a 10 year old.

Thank you. Comparing my humbleness to a seven year old and a ten year old illustrates the utmost maturity and the finest of debating skills.

[Zippy]

A few examples...

Zippy, whose post attracted Metro's ire, ended his rant with the statement, "No thanks.. I already paid my taxes..", thereby letting everyone know that, because he pays taxes, he has more right to demand that offensive human blight be removed from his presence.

well.. sorta.. I just don't want more of my money being thrown away on lost causes and human debris who will exist anyway.. if you feel philanthropic enough to donate/give/whatever your money.. that's fine by me.. just don't waste mine.

[MetroMogul]

I see everyone has strayed away or skewered my point towards something that they can actually debate instead of the initial intent which seemingly only two people understand. That's fine, anything to maintain your current line of thinking. I'm done debating the matter, I've already made my point.

[MetroMogul]

That's a strange argument. You seem to feel that most individuals are of little value, unless they can identify specific contributions they make to society, excluding jobs, friends and families. This is an awfully dark and depressing view of society. I would argue that a job, friends and family, as well as volunteering or donating to charities count as contributions to society. Not everyone can contribute to the level of Mahatma Gandhi or Abraham Lincoln, but most people contribute obscurely in smaller but important ways.

Now a homeless person may be a past or future contributor, or he may be neither. That doesn't make the person any more or less human, but I would argue that most homeless draw from society more often than they give back. And the people with the McJobs are typically the ones who are working 40-60 hours a week and giving to charities or religions that should be helping these homeless people. So, by that definition, I think it's logical to argue that someone like LTAWACS is a greater contributor to society than your average homeless person.

Thank you. Comparing my humbleness to a seven year old and a ten year old illustrates the utmost maturity and the finest of debating skills.

And I ask, how so? It takes relatively little to live the life of a homeless person. The average homeless person uses no electricity or working plumbing, consumes little food, has no dwelling to build or maintain, and no car to fuel and add to air pollution. What exactly are they taking away? A few dollars from some generous person's pocket? The ambiance of a plastic townhome/entertainment district with a 20 year lifespan that will be overrun with more homeless later? You can argue that the homeless contribute to society by what they don't take from it.

Also, I find it funny that you mention working 40-60 hours a week to donate to a charity to help the homeless as a contribution then, in the same bnreath mention LTAWACS after he explicity stated the homeless should just "go away."

I mean guys, you give these reasons for disliking the homeless such as potential crime and lack of contributions but when you think about it logically, most people who commit crimes have stable dwellings and downtown, the homeless mecca for the city has one of the lowest crime rates. Plus, the homeless use far less resources than the "contributors" by basically living off of the land and scraps that are wasted. But, I suppose because they frighten you they are not even worthy of that?

[crunchtastic]

And I ask, how so? It takes relatively little to live the life of a homeless person. The average homeless person uses no electricity or working plumbing, consumes little food, has no dwelling to build or maintain, and no car to fuel and add to air pollution. What exactly are they taking away? A few dollars from some generous person's pocket? The ambiance of a plastic townhome/entertainment district with a 20 year lifespan that will be overrun with more homeless later? You can argue that the homeless contribute to society by what they don't take from it.

How true. With each passing year as the gap between rich and poor widens, non-traditional living arrangements will only grow. There are valuable lessens to be learned from homeless people. But rather than learn and adapt, we'd rather demonize people. Katrina opened people's eyes to large scale human displacement in the first world, but only for a little while. It would be folly to think similar situations won't happen more frequently and on a much larger scale.

[barracuda]

And I ask, how so? It takes relatively little to live the life of a

homeless person. The average homeless person uses no electricity or

working plumbing, consumes little food, has no dwelling to build or

maintain, and no car to fuel and add to air pollution. What

exactly are they taking away? A few dollars from some generous

person's pocket? The ambiance of a plastic townhome/entertainment

district with a 20 year lifespan that will be overrun with more

homeless later? You can argue that the homeless contribute to society

by what they don't take from it.

How so? Because they live off of society. Most homeless are dependent on handouts to survive. Why else do they beg for money? Organizations and individuals give homeless much if not all they need to survive. So generous people are giving, and the homeless are taking.

Do homeless people give back to society? Sometimes, by offering to do odd jobs or helping each other out. But I don't think too many homeless are harvesting their own food, stitching their own clothing, or living in open, undeveloped areas. They depend on the developments and generosities of others for these things, which are often funneled through a charitable organization.

Also, I find it funny that you mention working 40-60 hours a week to

donate to a charity to help the homeless as a contribution then, in

the same bnreath mention LTAWACS after he explicity stated the

homeless should just "go away."

Point taken. LTAWACS may not be the best example. But there are many

of us who do try to give back.

I mean guys, you give these reasons for disliking the homeless such as

potential crime and lack of contributions but when you think about it

logically, most people who commit crimes have stable dwellings and

downtown, the homeless mecca for the city has one of the lowest crime

rates. Plus, the homeless use far less resources than the

"contributors" by basically living off of the land and scraps that are

wasted. But, I suppose because they frighten you they are not even

worthy of that?

I think you are incorrect. A troubled and unstable household is a breeding ground for future criminals.

You make a good point on resources. I think people could definitely learn to manage resources better by learning a thing or two from how homeless live. I'm sure that will make many people uncomfortable. At the same time, homeless can be wasteful in their own way by leaving trash and discarded items behind when they move from place to place. This is probably a reaction to feeling rejected from society, like, why clean up for a society that treats me like garbage?

I suppose many people are frightened by homeless, but that probably has more to do with uncertainty about the mental condition of a person acting unusual, or the discomfort of a stranger approaching you to ask for something for nothing, not the simple fact that the person is homeless. Familiarity does a lot to ease fears, though.

Edited July 15, 2008 by barracuda

[barracuda]

How true. With each passing year as the gap between rich and poor widens, non-traditional living arrangements will only grow. There are valuable lessens to be learned from homeless people. But rather than learn and adapt, we'd rather demonize people. Katrina opened people's eyes to large scale human displacement in the first world, but only for a little while. It would be folly to think similar situations won't happen more frequently and on a much larger scale.

I suppose you are comparing them to groups like Freegans? I think it's a great idea to maximize use and minimize waste, but I also think there are limits. Not everyone can live off the excesses of society, as there have to be some people to create the excess in the first place in order for it to work. But it's a good point, and there are way too many people living in McMansions and driving Suburbans when they would do fine in a house 1/4 the size and transportation that is much more modest. The current state of American consumer culture is not sustainable, and the recent hike in fuel prices is only the beginning.

[memebag]

How so? Because they live off of society. Most homeless are dependent on handouts to survive. Why else do they beg for money? Organizations and individuals give homeless much if not all they need to survive. So generous people are giving, and the homeless are taking.

Sounds like a sweet deal. I wonder why the homed people on here who see homeless people taking advantage of the rest of us aren't rushing to join them.