The Abandoned Astrodome And Its Future

[infinite_jim]

How so?  For an investment of approximately $195 Million (in fairness, less than that, because if we don't do this project we still have to either continue to spend a couple million per year to maintain it or spend tens of millions to demolish it, but let's just go with the $195 Million figure), we get a 355,000 square foot multi-purpose convention/trade show/sports/gathering space facility unlike any other in the world.

 

For comparison:

 

--Nashville recently spent $623 Million to build the 350,000 square foot Music City Center, which is a relatively run-of-the mill convention center.

 

--Oklahoma City is working on a new convention center (again, a relatively run-of-the-mill facility, on which they plan to spend $250 Million for around 250,000 square feet of exhibit  and meeting space.

 

-- 5 years ago, Raleigh NC spent $221 Million on a run-of-the-mill convention center with approximately 190,000 square feet of exhibit and meeting space.

The Nashville comparison is not worth getting into, but I trust you do a lot of conventions, but to me that's a really nice convention center in terms of design. It's obviously 3x the value and it looks like the land acquisition was pretty long process; together that puts it out of this half-pasteurized Dome proposal's league. Also this article says it's was $585 million and goes into some detail about it's unconventional take on the convention center job. 

 

For OKC I can't really talk about something that's not completed yet nor do we know the form/site/etc.

 

The Raleigh convention center was new site acquistion as well and it's largest span is nothing like that of the Dome's existing, not to mention it's a your basic warehouse structurally so all the money went towards finishes. Nice exterior and street face, but nothing like Po Boyin' the Dome. 

 

The Dome proposal looks like a "just do what we need to do to get paid and eventually we'll get a CO." job job. This looks like a hot mess they're gonna buzz saw headfirst into at that cost estimate; it should be 3x as much and include people movers, exterior escalators, etc. Good luck but I sincerely hope no one gets hurt on this project but it looks dangerous and I really am on your side in that I care about what happens to the Dome but a Home Cheapo re-muddle is not something anyone had in mind. Are we looking at the same renderings? The demo of the exterior stair wells could very well in up in extensive repair work on the facade. In fact the whole facade exercise is the worst sort of gloss over the big interior issues. I just don't understand how it can only be $150 million when it looks like in order to do a good job it will go way over that amount. A new convention space can be developed on site at some future time and not be locked into designing around the Dome's master plan configuration.

 

Edited September 21, 2013 by infinite_jim

[Houston19514]

The Nashville comparison is not worth getting into, but I trust you do a lot of conventions, but to me that's a really nice convention center in terms of design. It's obviously 3x the value and it looks like the land acquisition was pretty long process; together that puts it out of this half-pasteurized Dome proposal's league. Also this article says it's was $585 million and goes into some detail about it's unconventional take on the convention center job. 

 

For OKC I can't really talk about something that's not completed yet nor do we know the form/site/etc.

 

The Raleigh convention center was new site acquistion as well and it's largest span is nothing like that of the Dome's existing, not to mention it's a your basic warehouse structurally so all the money went towards finishes. Nice exterior and street face, but nothing like Po Boyin' the Dome. 

 

The Dome proposal looks like a "just do what we need to do to get paid and eventually we'll get a CO." job job. This looks like a hot mess they're gonna buzz saw headfirst into at that cost estimate; it should be 3x as much and include people movers, exterior escalators, etc. Good luck but I sincerely hope no one gets hurt on this project but it looks dangerous and I really am on your side in that I care about what happens to the Dome but a Home Cheapo re-muddle is not something anyone had in mind. Are we looking at the same renderings? The demo of the exterior stair wells could very well in up in extensive repair work on the facade. In fact the whole facade exercise is the worst sort of gloss over the big interior issues. I just don't understand how it can only be $150 million when it looks like in order to do a good job it will go way over that amount. A new convention space can be developed on site at some future time and not be locked into designing around the Dome's master plan configuration.

 

If the Nashville comparison is not worth getting into, why did you proceed to get into it?  In any event, thanks for reinforcing my argument that they paid almost three times the price for roughly the same amount of exhibit space (without anything close to the flexibility).  And ours is in an already world-renowned architectural marvel.  Theirs is in a new building that will be dated in 20 years.  Not in the dome's league?  You are out of your mind.

 

Likewise with your statement about the Raleigh convention center.   Thanks for clarifying that despite paying more 5 years ago than we project to pay now, they ended up with a span "nothing like that of the Dome's existing" and got themselves a basic warehouse structure.

 

Your statement that we are not getting much for our money could not be more wrong.

Edited September 21, 2013 by Houston19514

[Houston19514]

The dome will be toast, and rightly so given the poor option the county is attempting to cram down our throats with its craven tactics. We'll have to schedule our next HAIF Happy Hour for the friday after the election. I'll gladly stand a drink to any HAIFer who wants to wager the dome lives.

 

The most ridic idea yet is that we should pay for this because of possible future casino gambling. What, so we can maybe in the future give Tillman Fertitta another incentive? The vote is not merely to rehab the dome. It is for a  potentially endless succession of taxpayer-funded handouts to future tenants....after the initial costs. This is what you will be voting for, not 'just' $8.  Hell, if the point is mass- commerical enterprise, we could turn it into a flea market today for a lot less than $200M. Traders Village is so inconvenient to get to, after all.

Or how about the awesome  comparison to 'repurposing'  the Compaq Center. How well, exactly, did we  make out on that sweetheart deal to Lakewood after all the sunk costs?

 

Focus, dude.  Try to focus on the actual proposal rather than your fevered conspiracy theories.

[Guest Jackwood]

@ crunch,

 

I advise that you start saving your spare change for the HAIF Happy Hour.

 

Doing a very quick google search, I am encouraged by the fact that there are several organizations and efforts (some with some actual money behind them) to save the dome.

 

http://savetheastrodome.org/

 

https://www.facebook.com/pages/Save-Our-Astrodome/174998855918304

 

http://www.myfoxhouston.com/story/23428154/preservation-groups-pac-working-to-save-astrodome

 

https://www.facebook.com/pages/Save-the-Astrodome/304728382987294

 

http://www.ipetitions.com/petition/astrodome/

 

http://www.preservationnation.org/issues/11-most-endangered/locations/astrodome.html

 

http://savingplaces.org/treasures/astrodome

 

http://www.judgeemmett.org/news_release.asp?p=7&intRelease_ID=7302&intAcc_ID=66

 

http://app1.kuhf.org/articles/1319063809-Survey-Shows-People-Still-Partial-To-The-Astrodome.html

 

I couldn't find any organizations working to get it demolished.

 

A reminder to all the political soothsayers out there. A week before the November 2012 elections, Fox News predicted that Mitt Romney was going to win in a landslide. How'd that work out? 

Edited September 21, 2013 by Jackwood

[TOMIKA!]

The dome will be toast, and rightly so given the poor option the county is attempting to cram down our throats with its craven tactics. We'll have to schedule our next HAIF Happy Hour for the friday after the election. I'll gladly stand a drink to any HAIFer who wants to wager the dome lives.

 

The most ridic idea yet is that we should pay for this because of possible future casino gambling. What, so we can maybe in the future give Tillman Fertitta another incentive? The vote is not merely to rehab the dome. It is for a  potentially endless succession of taxpayer-funded handouts to future tenants....after the initial costs. This is what you will be voting for, not 'just' $8.  Hell, if the point is mass- commerical enterprise, we could turn it into a flea market today for a lot less than $200M. Traders Village is so inconvenient to get to, after all.

Or how about the awesome  comparison to 'repurposing'  the Compaq Center. How well, exactly, did we  make out on that sweetheart deal to Lakewood after all the sunk costs?

 

You're on! I'll bet you real money - $100. Can't wait to drink a few rounds on you! 

[infinite_jim]

If the Nashville comparison is not worth getting into, why did you proceed to get into it?  In any event, thanks for reinforcing my argument that they paid almost three times the price for roughly the same amount of exhibit space (without anything close to the flexibility).  And ours is in an already world-renowned architectural marvel.  Theirs is in a new building that will be dated in 20 years.  Not in the dome's league?  You are out of your mind.

 

Likewise with your statement about the Raleigh convention center.   Thanks for clarifying that despite paying more 5 years ago than we project to pay now, they ended up with a span "nothing like that of the Dome's existing" and got themselves a basic warehouse structure.

 

Your statement that we are not getting much for our money could not be more wrong.

The Nashville comparison is just too apples vs oranges; I thought you'd get to the point that they may have a dated building in 20 years but it will still be a unique, "run-of-the-mill" work of architecture (i.e. expensive engineering on an expensive piece of dirt). None of your examples were of an existing, modular design that was renovated to today's standards. The Dome is from 1965 and has a high-modern internationalist exterior if not an outright brutalist one these days. I live in building also built in 1965, spalling is a deadly serious remediation issue from a structural as well as liability point of view. Restorative concrete work is not cheap in any sense, especially if it's structural. This all before we even consider the varying costs of high performance coatings (interior as well) which you know means that the amount of surface amount to be covered is quite a vast number yielding either an inferior specification or a massive budgetary item.

 

Just as building the Astrodome was a historic engineering feat, restoring it will be just as complicated a feat, but in that sense I hope I'm wrong too. I do hope we're getting the insanely good deal you say we're getting. Is this too good a deal to be true? 

Edited September 21, 2013 by infinite_jim

[Houston19514]

The Nashville comparison is just too apples vs oranges; I thought you'd get to the point that they may have a dated building in 20 years but it will still be a unique, "run-of-the-mill" work of architecture (i.e. expensive engineering on an expensive piece of dirt). None of your examples were of an existing, modular design that was renovated to today's standards. The Dome is from 1965 and has a high-modern internationalist exterior if not an outright brutalist one these days. I live in building also built in 1965, spalling is a deadly serious remediation issue from a structural as well as liability point of view. Restorative concrete work is not cheap in any sense, especially if it's structural. This all before we even consider the varying costs of high performance coatings (interior as well) which you know means that the amount of surface amount to be covered is quite a vast number yielding either an inferior specification or a massive budgetary item.

 

Just as building the Astrodome was a historic engineering feat, restoring it will be just as complicated a feat, but in that sense I hope I'm wrong too. I do hope we're getting the insanely good deal you say we're getting. Is this too good a deal to be true? 

 

So which is it?  Is this plan "pretty expensive for what we are getting" (as you claimed in post # 263) or are we getting so much for our money that it's too good to be true as you now suggest?  You seem very confused as to what your position is.

 

You seem to be intentionally missing the point of the comparison with the other convention center/exhibit halls posted.  There is nothing apples/oranges about the comparisons.  In each case, a public entity is spending money to create exhibition halls.  We are proposing to do so for a fraction of the price per square foot that other communities are spending/have spent.

[Naviguessor]

Come on. For $8/yr. of course I'll vote yes!

[Mab]

Couple more rendering on the New Dome Experience from the KHUF flickr site.  

Edited September 23, 2013 by Mab

[Mab]

http://thenewdomepac.com/

 

 

The new Dome website!!!

 

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fB2FK23j-8M#t=68

 

Here a great video about the dome project. 

 

 

 

Edited September 24, 2013 by Mab

[Houston19514]

^   Cool!  Thanks for posting.

[Guest Jackwood]

GOOD NEWS! Polls show that most people favor saving the dome.

 

http://www.chron.com/news/politics/houston/article/Polls-suggest-voters-have-minds-made-up-on-Dome-4841020.php

 

VOTE YES! SAVE THE DOME!

[Gary]

GOOD NEWS! Polls show that most people favor saving the dome.

 

http://www.chron.com/news/politics/houston/article/Polls-suggest-voters-have-minds-made-up-on-Dome-4841020.php

 

VOTE YES! SAVE THE DOME!

Actually, it shows it's very close. Another polling company finds it's even.

 

"Another poll, conducted for the campaign working to drum up support for the dome project, shows a tie: 43 percent in favor and 43 percent opposed, with the rest undecided. The group's poll surveyed 500 likely county voters and has a 4.5 percentage point margin of error."

[Gary]

If the first poll is a more accurate measurement, then it looks pretty good, but they need to go after the 20% of undecided. My gut says it will pass.

 

[Subdude]

It wouldn't be surprising to have support.  Although I personally think this is a massive boondoggle, people rarely vote down spending bills. 

 

Btw, in the renderings posted doesn't the interior with the theoretical activies going on look a good bit smaller than the Dome is in reality? 

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest Jackwood]

As someone who wants to see that building preserved more than any other building in the world, I'm just happy that the first polls show that it has a good chance at surviving. I really wasn't sure which direction popular opinion was leaning. It's too close for comfort. But it's still very encouraging.

[TOMIKA!]

The dome will be toast, and rightly so given the poor option the county is attempting to cram down our throats with its craven tactics. We'll have to schedule our next HAIF Happy Hour for the friday after the election. I'll gladly stand a drink to any HAIFer who wants to wager the dome lives.

 

 

 

You're on! I'll bet you real money - $100. Can't wait to drink a few rounds on you! 

 

So, crunchtastic, what say you?!! Are we on? I'll up my bet to $200. 

[cloud713]

looks like they are demoing the ticket booths..

http://swamplot.com/daily-demolition-report-squeezing-sharman/2013-10-02/

[lockmat]

Well, the ghcvb is supporting them. Guess they feel like it's more of a complementary venue than competition.

http://thenewdomepac.com/uncategorized/ghcvb-supports-astrodome-proposal/

Also, the new video posted on swamplot has me sold.

[infinite_jim]

I went to presentation yesterday and can pretty much say that the price tag is accurate but the scope shown in the renderings is not 100%. There is an ongoing push for contingency monies however the forensic engineers reported that the rigid framed steel is still in good shape. This is more so a stripped down preservation project than a full blown renovation project, hence the price.

There was also mention of potential future private investment within the Reliant masterplan but that would not be considered till after the preservation job is done in 2017.

[lockmat]

Did you see a different rendering or is that just based off the description they gave?

[infinite_jim]

Same rendering and video; this is from my personal questions.

[Houston19514]

I went to presentation yesterday and can pretty much say that the price tag is accurate but the scope shown in the renderings is not 100%. There is an ongoing push for contingency monies however the forensic engineers reported that the rigid framed steel is still in good shape. This is more so a stripped down preservation project than a full blown renovation project, hence the price.

There was also mention of potential future private investment within the Reliant masterplan but that would not be considered till after the preservation job is done in 2017.

 

Not sure what you mean by the scope shown in the renderings not being accurate.

 

To clarify regarding the potential future private investment, they have said this all along.  This is a fairly bare-bones renovation (on the inside) that makes the Astrodome usable and maintains/preserves the structure so that, should someone come along in the future with both a great plan and financing to put something like a hotel or amusement park or museum etc etc in the Dome structure, it would be possible.  If there were private investors with both money and a viable plan, they would be considered now, next year, or any time they show up.  They won't have to wait until after preservation job is done to have their plans considered.

 

(I went to a presentation yesterday too, probably the same one you did.)

Edited October 8, 2013 by Houston19514

[lockmat]

Not sure what you mean by the scope shown in the renderings not being accurate.

To clarify regarding the potential future private investment, they have said this all along. This is a fairly bare-bones renovation (on the inside) that makes the Astrodome usable and maintains/preserves the structure so that, should someone come along in the future with both a great plan and financing to put something like a hotel or amusement park or museum etc etc in the Dome structure, it would be possible. If there were private investors with both money and a viable plan, they would be considered now, next year, or any time they show up. They won't have to wait until after preservation job is done to have their plans considered.

(I went to a presentation yesterday too, probably the same one you did.)

So the event center portrayed in the video is not what it will be after the renovations?

Are you saying it will be basic renovations to simply get it ready for a potential investor and sit useless and empty until that happens?

I think most people think it will become that event center and be ready for someone to reserve and use it for an event. I know some of the events portrayed are not guaranteed, but please don't tell me they'll need to wait for investors to finish building it out for a totally different use.

Edited October 8, 2013 by lockmat

[Houston19514]

So the event center portrayed in the video is not what it will be after the renovations?

Are you saying it will be basic renovations to simply get it ready for a potential investor and sit useless and empty until that happens?

I think most people think it will become that event center and be ready for someone to reserve and use it for an event. I know some of the events portrayed are not guaranteed, but please don't tell me they'll need to wait for investors to finish building it out for a totally different use.

 

On the contrary.  The event center portrayed in the video is exactly what it will be after the renovations.    As I said in my prior post, this renovation will make the Astrodome usable AND preserves the structure.  IF (and it is one huge if) at some point in the future, some private investor comes along with a viable plan and money, then we will still have the structure available to discuss their plans.  There is not much reason to expect that to ever happen.  This renovation (the one we are voting on in November) will make the Dome usable as an event center as portrayed in the video. 

Edited October 8, 2013 by Houston19514

[Urbannizer]

 

Preservationist take to the streets in "Dome Mobile"

Edited October 22, 2013 by Urbannizer

[skwatra]

Any recent polls out there on this?

[Subdude]

It never happens, but assuming this boondoggle passes, I would like the county to provide an annual cash flow and occupancy report on the project so taxpayers can see how it turned out.

 

 

[arche_757]

I've long thought the best re-use of this project would be to sell it to the Texas Medical Center (or even just lease it) and turn it into a Bio-Medical research center with interior parkscape and even maybe build an adjoining hotel?

 

Think of all the construction happening right now in the TMC.  Now, imagine somwhere else there is a building capable of housing ~1 million or so square feet of office/research space.  Yes much work would need to be done, and many elements of the dome would change, but talk about a meaningful repurposing.

 

 

Something tells me the county already has plans in place to tear the dome down and leave that space as a park or parking, and eventual plans (long range) have a new stadium being built on that exact spot when Reliant is ~30-40 years old.

[Subdude]

Since there isn't any obviously apparent economical use, I still think the best proposal was the idea to strip it to its frame and leave the ground as a park.  I would definitely vote for that over the current "New Dome Experience" proposal.  It's been done before: