General Transportation News

[Urbannizer]

Thread relating to road transportation news, small projects, etc.

 

New Houston Mayor to Texas DOT: Wider Roads Mean More Traffic

 

Quote

Count new Houston Mayor Sylvester Turner among the growing crowd of local transportation officials wary of road-expansion as a solution to traffic problems. Turner told the Texas Transportation Commission last week that it was time for a “paradigm shift” away from the ineffective approach of widening highways, according to prepared remarks posted by Streetsblog’s Angie Schmitt. That strategy, he said, only makes congestion worse. 

 

To help his case, Turner pointed to the Katy Freeway in Houston, or Interstate 10. A few years ago it was expanded to 26 lanes in some segments at a cost of $2.8 billion—good enough to earn the title of the “world’s widest freeway.” Despite all that new road capacity, rush-hour travel times increased between 2011 and 2014; in 2015, Turner pointed out, one segment of the Katy was ranked among the most congested roads in Texas.

 

 

 

 

[IronTiger]

Aw man, Turner's jumped on the induced demand bandwagon too?

Citylab is one of these nutjob anti-car sites, so they may be only grabbing certain parts of what he said.

[BigFootsSocks]

I think what he means is we need a healthy mixture rather than an extreme for either highway funding or mass transit.

[mfastx]

Turner should focus on getting the damn University line built, TxDOT does the freeways and they never seem to have any shortage of money. 

[ADCS]

Turner should focus on getting the damn University line built, TxDOT does the freeways and they never seem to have any shortage of money. 

 

Didn't we just pass two constitutional amendments because TxDOT had an extreme shortage of money? I'm pretty sure that's why the Grand Parkway is a toll road.

[Nate99]

The political brilliance of transportation funding is almost hard to comprehend.

[Houston19514]

For the love of God, please tell me our mayor did not really say he thinks adding roadway capacity causes increased congestion.  That's even step beyond the idiocy of induced demand.

[kylejack]

Aw man, Turner's jumped on the induced demand bandwagon too?

Citylab is one of these nutjob anti-car sites, so they may be only grabbing certain parts of what he said.

If we expand Katy Freeway to 40 lanes, we're going to wipe out a bunch of cool businesses that contribute to the economic vitality of the city. At some point we are going to have to change the way things are done, or the freeways will eat the entire city and everything in it.

[Houston19514]

If we expand Katy Freeway to 40 lanes, we're going to wipe out a bunch of cool businesses that contribute to the economic vitality of the city. At some point we are going to have to change the way things are done, or the freeways will eat the entire city and everything in it.

 

A case can be made that we need to adopt methods for improving mobility beyond widening and adding freeways.  But the mayor would bring a lot more credibility to the discussion if he didn't lead with something as idiotic and counter-factual as claiming that widening freeways creates congestion.  Again, hopefully, he didn't actually say that.

 

[Slick Vik]

For the love of God, please tell me our mayor did not really say he thinks adding roadway capacity causes increased congestion. That's even step beyond the idiocy of induced demand.

Fairly well known theory.

[samagon]

I could swear I read somewhere that somehow that it was passed that a property tax rate increase couldn't occur? 

 

If that's indeed the case, then the only way to bring in more revenue is to increase land value and density. You can increase land value and density by making it easier to travel inside the city, rather than expanding freeways out to the suburbs.

 

So whatever his reasoning, it's the smart choice, make the inner city a desirable place to live, more desirable than the suburbs. Build parks, fix roads, we just need a school system that is better.

[Houston19514]

Fairly well known theory.

 

Yeah, I know it's a fairly well-known theory.  That does not reduce its idiocy.

 

[Triton]

Going back to the rail side, aren't the voters supposed to decide on light rail funding or did they do that in the last local elections? Wasn't that the deal between Culberson and Metro?

[BigFootsSocks]

Going back to the rail side, aren't the voters supposed to decide on light rail funding or did they do that in the last local elections? Wasn't that the deal between Culberson and Metro?

I believe they decided it would be put to a vote to decide the fate of the University Line. It would behoove Metro to put that on the upcoming November 2016 ballot.

[mollusk]

For the love of God, please tell me our mayor did not really say he thinks adding roadway capacity causes increased congestion.  That's even step beyond the idiocy of induced demand.

A case can be made that we need to adopt methods for improving mobility beyond widening and adding freeways.  But the mayor would bring a lot more credibility to the discussion if he didn't lead with something as idiotic and counter-factual as claiming that widening freeways creates congestion.  Again, hopefully, he didn't actually say that.

 

I've lived near the Katy Freeway inside the loop for several decades.  

 

Prior to the Katy becoming The Widest Freeway In The Whole Freakin' World, the eastbound side between the Loop and downtown would generally only become congested for a wreck or construction, the backup at the Smith Street exit in the mornings excepted.  Now, inbound in the afternoons is as bad or worse than in the mornings (though it seems to be running well today for some reason). 

 

Going back to the rail side, aren't the voters supposed to decide on light rail funding or did they do that in the last local elections? Wasn't that the deal between Culberson and Metro?

I believe they decided it would be put to a vote to decide the fate of the University Line. It would behoove Metro to put that on the upcoming November 2016 ballot.

 

Remind me... will this be the third or the fourth time we've voted on this?

Edited February 2, 2016 by mollusk

[kylejack]

Yeah, I know it's a fairly well-known theory.  That does not reduce its idiocy.

 

 I think it has to do with the fact that there's a point of diminishing returns. Increasing from one to two lanes can help, but increasing from 26 lanes to 36 lanes might not help at all.

[Houston19514]

I've lived near the Katy Freeway inside the loop for several decades.  

 

Prior to the Katy becoming The Widest Freeway In The Whole Freakin' World, the eastbound side between the Loop and downtown would generally only become congested for a wreck or construction, the backup at the Smith Street exit in the mornings excepted.  Now, inbound in the afternoons is as bad or worse than in the mornings (though it seems to be running well today for some reason). 

 

 

And...???   If there is increased congestion inside the loop, it's a result of the failure to widen that portion of the freeway. 

 

 

[Houston19514]

 I think it has to do with the fact that there's a point of diminishing returns. Increasing from one to two lanes can help, but increasing from 26 lanes to 36 lanes might not help at all.

There may be diminishing returns, but that does not mean there are no returns to further widening.  I highly doubt that increasing from 26 to 36 lanes would "not help at all." 

[BigFootsSocks]

It would certainly look ugly af tho

[Naviguessor]

...and an indicator of a much larger problem.

[astros148]

is the measure confirmed to be on the ballot this year?!

[BigFootsSocks]

No

[kylejack]

There may be diminishing returns, but that does not mean there are no returns to further widening.  I highly doubt that increasing from 26 to 36 lanes would "not help at all." 

 

Say you're in the fast lane. You need to get over 12 lanes to exit. You're getting in a lot of people's way to get off. At some point widening the freeway may not help but actually hurt.

[mollusk]

Say you're in the fast lane. You need to get over 12 lanes to exit. You're getting in a lot of people's way to get off. At some point widening the freeway may not help but actually hurt.

 

/\  This.  Ridiculously wide frontage roads are also a problem.  The prime example is westbound Katy at Bunker Hill - just try to get all the way over to turn north onto Bunker Hill without driving like an aggressive jackass - and just forget trying to get into Lowe's and Best Buy from the south.  The wide frontage road encourages people to go faster, and it's a bunch of changes in the short distance from the end of the ramp to the intersection.

[Slick Vik]

Yeah, I know it's a fairly well-known theory. That does not reduce its idiocy.

It's not idiotic. In fact removing lanes is an even better idea because this forces people to take alternative forms of transportations or drive on alternative routes. More freeways encourages more people to drive, thus zero effect on congestion.

[samagon]

/\  This.  Ridiculously wide frontage roads are also a problem.  The prime example is westbound Katy at Bunker Hill - just try to get all the way over to turn north onto Bunker Hill without driving like an aggressive jackass - and just forget trying to get into Lowe's and Best Buy from the south.  The wide frontage road encourages people to go faster, and it's a bunch of changes in the short distance from the end of the ramp to the intersection.

 

I'm pretty sure 5 lanes is what has been bandied about as the end of positive results from making a freeway wider. I don't know that anyone has done a study for feeder roads, but since we're the only town with them, we are probably on our own to figure it out.

[Houston19514]

It's not idiotic. In fact removing lanes is an even better idea because this forces people to take alternative forms of transportations or drive on alternative routes. More freeways encourages more people to drive, thus zero effect on congestion.

 

False.  Anyone who says that the widening of the Katy Freeway did not do anything to alleviate congestion, or more to the point, provide improved mobility for thousands of people every day is either flat-out lying or utterly ignorant.  It did not become re-congested because thousands of people every day decided, "oh, hey, there's a nice wide freeway out there, let's go for a drive."  It became re-congested mostly because we've added another 2 million or more people since the project started.

 

Using the logic of the "induced demand" theory, -- we should not have added additional rail cars to serve the redline when the original cars became overcrowded at certain times of day.  If we add more rail cars, more people will just use the rail line and it might become crowded again. Maybe we should remove some cars and force people to take alternative forms of transportation or ride on the bus -- We should not add gates at Bush Intercontinental.  In fact, I guess we should eliminate some gates and force people to take alternative forms of transportation.  More airport capacity encourages more people to fly, thus zero effect on congestion.  -- We should not expand the container port at the port of Houston; that will just encourage more people to ship things and the container facilities will just get congested again.

[BigFootsSocks]

That's such an improper understanding of the induced demand theory, and it really has nothing to do with adding more trams to the Red Line. If there's increased demand for transit on the line, you add cars, which fill up, and the increase the frequency of the trains.

A better use of your example would be to add extra lines parallel to the Line without adding more cars to the original line, which is just silly.

[IronTiger]

To add another point, things were still building along the Northwest Freeway corridor even when expansion plans weren't made clear yet. Secondly, the Katy Freeway widening is final and won't be expanded anymore. Like, tell me where TxDOT even SUGGESTED widening Katy Freeway after it was widened and rebuilt.

 

I don't know, I expected a little more sense out of Turner in terms of mobility, he did oppose Whitmire's "monorail" plan as proposed in the 1980s.

[Houston19514]

That's such an improper understanding of the induced demand theory, and it really has nothing to do with adding more trams to the Red Line. If there's increased demand for transit on the line, you add cars, which fill up, and the increase the frequency of the trains.

A better use of your example would be to add extra lines parallel to the Line without adding more cars to the original line, which is just silly.

 

How do I have an improper understanding of the induced demand theory?  (I disagree that adding rail cars is not a proper comparison, but for argument's sake leave that example aside.)