Texas Central Project

[cloud713]

So it appears they are playing favoritism towards Dallas??

They acknowledged Houston would have a "terminal", but the (downtown) Dallas station would be "iconic".

http://m.bizjournals.com/dallas/blog/2014/11/high-speed-rail-station-will-be-iconic-part-of.html

Edited November 22, 2014 by cloud713

[fkp5]

So it appears they are playing favoritism towards Dallas??

They acknowledged Houston would have a "terminal", but the (downtown) Dallas station would be "iconic".

http://m.bizjournals.com/dallas/blog/2014/11/high-speed-rail-station-will-be-iconic-part-of.html

 

Too bad about the Dallas favoritism, but it looks like the article is saying that the stops will be in downtown Dallas and downtown Houston. Hopefully that is correct.

[Luminare]

and today the high speed rail thread took it's obligatory Hou vs. Dal flame war tangent....

[BigFootsSocks]

It was inevitable

[mollusk]

Quelle surprise!  The Dallas Business Journal has a Dallas orientation!    Quick - fetch the smelling salts!   

 

In other news, the sun rose in the east this morning. 

 

The Dallas station has a particular place to go that makes tons more sense than the other locations that were in play - it's adjacent to the old, yet still in use Union Station.  The SP terminal got torn down almost 60 years ago, and not only was Union Station a "back in" design but it's also now a baseball stadium - so the decision in Houston is a bit more complex.  Given that, why wouldn't the concept for the Dallas station perhaps be a bit further along?  I have no doubt that whatever ends up getting built for Houston will certainly surpass the current Amtrak station's... ummmmm... unadorned functionality.

[Luminare]

Quelle surprise!  The Dallas Business Journal has a Dallas orientation!    Quick - fetch the smelling salts!   

 

In other news, the sun rose in the east this morning. 

 

The Dallas station has a particular place to go that makes tons more sense than the other locations that were in play - it's adjacent to the old, yet still in use Union Station.  The SP terminal got torn down almost 60 years ago, and not only was Union Station a "back in" design but it's also now a baseball stadium - so the decision in Houston is a bit more complex.  Given that, why wouldn't the concept for the Dallas station perhaps be a bit further along?  I have no doubt that whatever ends up getting built for Houston will certainly surpass the current Amtrak station's... ummmmm... unadorned functionality.

 

I also read somewhere that....get this....water is wet *faints*

 

Union Station for Dallas, of course, makes perfect sense and there is an enormous trend right now both in Europe and the US in transforming these older stations. Two in particular I can think of right now is the Denver Union Station which was redone by SOM, and the other is the LA Union Station transformation which Nicholas Grimshaw just got the commission for.

[Houston19514]

Except that Texas Central (the people who plan to pay for and build this project) have said Dallas' Union Station is not an option.

[mollusk]

I recall hearing something to the effect that Union Station might be out, I'm guessing for some infrastructure/available space reason, but adjacent to it most certainly is in the running.

[Houston19514]

I recall hearing something to the effect that Union Station might be out, I'm guessing for some infrastructure/available space reason, but adjacent to it most certainly is in the running.

 

That's a DART concept. FWIW, DART is not building the HSR nor is DART deciding where to place the station.  Texas Central's possible station locations only get as close as just southwest of downtown Dallas (i.e. south of I-30).

[F4shionablecha0s]

That's a DART concept. FWIW, DART is not building the HSR nor is DART deciding where to place the station.  Texas Central's possible station locations only get as close as just southwest of downtown Dallas (i.e. south of I-30).

 

Look at the Dallas Morning News article. Texas Central has named a site adjacent to Union Station, just north of I-30, as one of three possibilities.

 

There's even a map.

 

The second DART LRT alignment and expansion of downtown streetcar services are DART plans, but the downtown HSR station is all Texas Central.

Edited November 24, 2014 by F4shionablecha0s

[Luminare]

Look at the Dallas Morning News article. Texas Central has named a site adjacent to Union Station, just north of I-30, as one of three possibilities.

 

There's even a map.

 

The second DART LRT alignment and expansion of downtown streetcar services are DART plans, but the downtown HSR station is all Texas Central.

 

A diamond in the rough. Thank you, sir.

 

Welcome to HAIF

[Houston19514]

Look at the Dallas Morning News article. Texas Central has named a site adjacent to Union Station, just north of I-30, as one of three possibilities.

 

There's even a map.

 

The second DART LRT alignment and expansion of downtown streetcar services are DART plans, but the downtown HSR station is all Texas Central.

 

I did look at the DMN article and the included map.  It's a DART map, showing what DART hopes to happen.  I can find no evidence anywhere that Texas Central has named a site adjacent to Union Station as one of their possibilities.   Here is the map of Dallas station alternatives put out by Texas Central:

 

Edited November 25, 2014 by Houston19514

[F4shionablecha0s]

I did look at the DMN article and the included map.  It's a DART map, showing what DART hopes to happen.  I can find no evidence anywhere that Texas Central has named a site adjacent to Union Station as one of their possibilities.  

 

You posted the evidence. See that northernmost "Dallas Potential Station Locations" circle? See the portion of that circle that lies within downtown?

 

That's adjacent to Union Station.

[Houston19514]

You posted the evidence. See that northernmost "Dallas Potential Station Locations" circle? See the portion of that circle that lies within downtown?

 

That's adjacent to Union Station.

 

Not sure that circle means what you are hoping/assuming it means. 

Edited November 25, 2014 by Houston19514

[Luminare]

More info about TCR and a new addition to the team:

 

http://www.dallasnews.com/news/transportation/20141124-ron-kirk-joins-dallas-houston-bullet-train-developer.ece

[Houston19514]

I wish the Chronicle would give this half the coverage it gets from the DMN.

[Luminare]

The fact of the matter is that the Dallas side is simply further along in planning and so I would assume there are more details as well as traction within city government to get this moving. Give it time. There is still so much info that isn't known about the Houston end. It will get the coverage it needs when there is more stuff to cover.

[Slick Vik]

The fact of the matter is that the Dallas side is simply further along in planning and so I would assume there are more details as well as traction within city government to get this moving. Give it time. There is still so much info that isn't known about the Houston end. It will get the coverage it needs when there is more stuff to cover.

They have a vision we don't it's been like that for a while

[ADCS]

The fact of the matter is that the Dallas side is simply further along in planning and so I would assume there are more details as well as traction within city government to get this moving. Give it time. There is still so much info that isn't known about the Houston end. It will get the coverage it needs when there is more stuff to cover.

 

From what I could tell at the meeting, local politicians are on board. Democrats like that it will provide jobs, and Republicans like that it will be a private enterprise. This should ease things significantly.

[MaxConcrete]

Check out this cost estimate of commuter rail lines for Houston, newly posted on the HGAC web site

http://www.h-gac.com/taq/commitees/TPC/2014/10-oct/docs/TAC_Pres_by_GCRD-12Nov2014-rev1.pdf

 

This is from the November meeting of the Transportation Policy Council.

 

The report includes analysis for getting a commuter line from the Northwest Mall area into downtown, just like a lot of folks on this thread want the proposed high speed line to terminate downtown.

 

It is not explicitly stated if the cost estimate is for track which is fully grade-separated or with street intersections. Since this is for commuter rail, I'm assuming there will be at-grade intersections with streets. I'm also assuming that commuter rail is not electrified, whereas HSR is electrified. This means HSR would be more expensive. Without knowing the number of intersections, I'm thinking the cost difference could range from around $50 million to possibly hundreds of millions more. A downtown station would also likely be more costly that a Northwest Mall station.

 

This also is not a direct comparison because the report's numbers start from Mangum Road near 34th, and apparently include an elevated structure along Mangum. Therefore the route from Northwest Mall is around two miles shorter.

 

Cost: $785 million.

 

Since the HSR route would be shorter and presumably not go past the Northwest Transit Center (but go direct along Hempstead Road), cost would be reduced. But since HSR-quality track will be more expensive due to grade separations and electrification, cost is increased. So I'm thinking $750 million to $1 billion is a reasonable estimate to get from Northwest Mall to downtown, and include the higher cost for a downtown station.

 

The least expensive route into downtown, which does not pass by Northwest Mall, is the route #1 in the presentation follows the rail which parallels the North Loop and then follows the Hardy Road corridor into downtown. $551 million.

 

Bottom line: In my view, this expense makes a Northwest Mall terminus more likely.

 

Edited November 26, 2014 by MaxConcrete

[Slick Vik]

Check out this cost estimate of commuter rail lines for Houston, newly posted on the HGAC web site

http://www.h-gac.com/taq/commitees/TPC/2014/10-oct/docs/TAC_Pres_by_GCRD-12Nov2014-rev1.pdf

This is from the November meeting of the Transportation Policy Council.

The report includes analysis for getting a commuter line from the Northwest Mall area into downtown, just like a lot of folks on this thread want the proposed high speed line to terminate downtown.

It is not explicitly stated if the cost estimate is for track which is fully grade-separated or with street intersections. Since this is for commuter rail, I'm assuming there will be at-grade intersections with streets. I'm also assuming that commuter rail is not electrified, whereas HSR is electrified. This means HSR would be more expensive. Without knowing the number of intersections, I'm thinking the cost difference could range from around $50 million to possibly hundreds of millions more. A downtown station would also likely be more costly that a Northwest Mall station.

This also is not a direct comparison because the report's numbers start from Mangum Road near 34th, and apparently include an elevated structure along Mangum. Therefore the route from Northwest Mall is around two miles shorter.

Cost: $785 million.

Since the HSR route would be shorter and presumably not go past the Northwest Transit Center (but go direct along Hempstead Road), cost would be reduced. But since HSR-quality track will be more expensive due to grade separations and electrification, cost is increased. So I'm thinking $750 million to $1 billion is a reasonable estimate to get from Northwest Mall to downtown, and include the higher cost for a downtown station.

The least expensive route into downtown, which does not pass by Northwest Mall, is the route #1 in the presentation follows the rail which parallels the North Loop and then follows the Hardy Road corridor into downtown. $551 million.

Bottom line: In my view, this expense makes a Northwest Mall terminus more likely.

How much was Katy freeway expansion from northwest mall to downtown? The total project was 3 billion so it was in the hundreds of millions as well. I don't know why people complain about cost of trains but for freeway everything is okay.

[august948]

How much was Katy freeway expansion from northwest mall to downtown? The total project was 3 billion so it was in the hundreds of millions as well. I don't know why people complain about cost of trains but for freeway everything is okay.

 

Apples and oranges.

 

[Houston19514]

The fact of the matter is that the Dallas side is simply further along in planning and so I would assume there are more details as well as traction within city government to get this moving. Give it time. There is still so much info that isn't known about the Houston end. It will get the coverage it needs when there is more stuff to cover.

 

Not true.  Texas Central Railway is at the exact same point in the planning process for the Houston and Dallas sides.

Edited November 26, 2014 by Houston19514

[BigFootsSocks]

Ok so they did their study and TCR is still in their environmental studies. I would think we could see some sort of funding announcement for commuter rail around the same time the HSR starts construction. However, we need more support for our city's half of transit. Dallas has a publication that's pushing HSR and Dart links hard. We need something like that for Houston.

[mollusk]

Not true.  Texas Central Railway is at the exact same point in the planning process for the Houston and Dallas sides.

 

How about a citation or link for some of these grand pronouncements?

[trymahjong]

from Cohens  enewsletter

Community Considers High-Speed Rail Proposal

The Federal Railroad Administration (FRA) and the Texas Department of Transportation (TxDOT) are preparing an Environmental Impact Study (EIS) on a proposal by Texas Central Railway to create a high-speed rail line connecting Dallas and Houston. Both of the two routes currently under consideration include portions of District C neighborhoods. While Council Member Cohen supports high-speed rail as a transit option, she opposes locating the route within close proximity to residential neighborhoods. Two community groups will host public meetings to discuss the proposal before the public comment period on the EIS ends January 9th, 2015. The first of these meetings will be hosted by Super Neighborhood 22, which represents the Washington/Memorial Corridor:

SN 22 Public Meeting: High-Speed Rail Proposal
Thursday, December 18th, 6PM
Houston Council on Alcohol and Drugs
303 Jackson Hill, 77007
(MAP)

Super Neighborhood 12, which represents the greater Oak Forest/Garden Oaks area, will host a follow-up meeting in January. Questions and comments on the proposal should be submitted to the FRA and TxDOT.

[Highway6]

The two alternate routes they are currently considering is a huge opportunity missed.

Map

 

The routes go up in no-man's land between 45 and 6 instead of hitting ANY other population centers.

 

Le'ts just go ahead and bypass

Woodlands - 94k

Conroe - 56k

College Station - 100k

Bryan - 76k

Waco - 125k

....what a genius idea.

 

It's the same damn LRT argument from a decade ago just at a bigger scale.

They are putting it where's its easy and convenient and not where the people are.

 

Great for the people of Houston and Dallas...  but to not also serve 2 major universities and several sizeable population or employment centers...  big ass waste.

 

 

 

[Luminare]

from Cohens  enewsletter

Community Considers High-Speed Rail Proposal

The Federal Railroad Administration (FRA) and the Texas Department of Transportation (TxDOT) are preparing an Environmental Impact Study (EIS) on a proposal by Texas Central Railway to create a high-speed rail line connecting Dallas and Houston. Both of the two routes currently under consideration include portions of District C neighborhoods. While Council Member Cohen supports high-speed rail as a transit option, she opposes locating the route within close proximity to residential neighborhoods. Two community groups will host public meetings to discuss the proposal before the public comment period on the EIS ends January 9th, 2015. The first of these meetings will be hosted by Super Neighborhood 22, which represents the Washington/Memorial Corridor:

SN 22 Public Meeting: High-Speed Rail Proposal

Thursday, December 18th, 6PM

Houston Council on Alcohol and Drugs

303 Jackson Hill, 77007

(MAP)

Super Neighborhood 12, which represents the greater Oak Forest/Garden Oaks area, will host a follow-up meeting in January. Questions and comments on the proposal should be submitted to the FRA and TxDOT.

 

The only reason they oppose it is because they automatically assume that Train = lots of noise, Train = huge potential for it to explode or derail.

 

All of those are only associated with regular freight lines! Lets hope that TCR has incredible PR to show the spotless operation record that this train has in Japan in areas of HIGHER density, and the fact that it is virtually quiet.

 

....or we can just oppose it because we don't like change because change is bad -.-

[Ross]

The two alternate routes they are currently considering is a huge opportunity missed.

Map

 

The routes go up in no-man's land between 45 and 6 instead of hitting ANY other population centers.

 

Le'ts just go ahead and bypass

Woodlands - 94k

Conroe - 56k

College Station - 100k

Bryan - 76k

Waco - 125k

....what a genius idea.

 

It's the same damn LRT argument from a decade ago just at a bigger scale.

They are putting it where's its easy and convenient and not where the people are.

 

Great for the people of Houston and Dallas...  but to not also serve 2 major universities and several sizeable population or employment centers...  big ass waste.

 

The goal is high speed service between Houston and Dallas, not local service for the people in between. Adding 5 stops probably adds 50 percent to the total travel time for little benefit.

 

[Highway6]

The goal is high speed service between Houston and Dallas, not local service for the people in between. Adding 5 stops probably adds 50 percent to the total travel time for little benefit.

 

 

But why is that now the goal?

In the past when the Texas Triangle or Texas Tbone has been discussed.. part of the goal was intermediary population centers. The Texas Tbone recognized the value of getting BCS, Waco, Temple(Ft Hood) in on the system.

 

How is having an additional stop in houston that serves the airport/major population/commercial center of little benfit?

How is it not a benefit for someone in north houston to not have to drive half an hour in the wrong direction to load a train downtown before heading in the right direction ?  **

How is adding 2 universities and allowing students and the work force to connect to two major metropolitan areas not beneficial to both the univiersities and metros?

 

Adding 1 stop in North Houston to get IAH/Spring/Woodlands plus having 2nd stop in BCS, and a 3rd in Waco.. That's approximately 40 miles of additional track.

 

Their site says Houston to Dallas in 90 minutes.

If you do the math.. an extra 40 miles adds 12 minutes

 

** The rail is supposed to compete with Southwest Airlines and one of the pros is not havign to deal with parking miles away, half hr security lines, etc etc.. The rail loses a big positive for anyone in N/NW houston if it takes just as long to get to the train that the benefit of not dealing with the pre flight crap is neutralized. Having more than 1 location in the destination cities makes sense.