Houston Vs. Dallas Shopping

[musicman]

Well the people in my business (architecture) do just about every day for the longest time. We have to design spaces where the designs are always evolving to become more efficent. Discussions of what should and should not be included in leaseable space, what can be considered what by the city's building/planning departments, what should be service space, public space, parking requirements etc. etc. etc. So the term leaseable gross space is a term that is widely used when working on such projects and is just a narrower definition of gross space. You typically have gross, net, and leasable space when figuring out the numbers for real estate agents and leasing partners on the architects side. They (real estate agents, developers, leasing firms) may ask you to help figure out other numbers such as gross leaseable space while in the midst of design.

But to answer your question musicman, yes we do have these conversations almost every day, and they influence the function and design of facilities.

As an architect, of course you would. That's your profession. I"m just saying that this isn't usually something brought up at the joe public weekly happy hour.

[slfunk]

Well there is some question as to where the numbers are coming from and what they represent. Maybe it is just me, but I have noticed that media, marketing what ever will look for a statistic to talk about how "impressive" something is or can be. For example, lately we seem to be getting an education in oil through the media throwing out terms retail oil, crude oil, retail gas, etc. etc. In the case of developments "gross leaseable area" is a just a way to compare the developments. So I was posting where some of these terms were coming from because there seems to be a lot of confusion about how to interpret the information.

I could really care less about who's got the biggest mall, nothing to appealing to being a "mall rat" IMO. I prefer town centers and the like. But do have to admit all the history North Park has gone through is pretty impressive. I know that at one time they thought it was going to be shut down (this coming from family who works in the retail industry).

[2112]

I thought this goes without saying? In fact I'd say most anyone in any big city will not see much more than what they have by going just about anywhere in the US. Even visiting the MOA if you don't have kids to tour the rides is not much different than anywhere else in the US.

So, are any of the Malls in Texas you mentioned that are way better than Northpark in the Houston area? If so could you list a couple because I'll be visiting this weekend and would enjoy checking one out.

Jason

JasonDFW,

You are not going to be impressed with another mall in Houston. Why? Because in general, malls are malls. I like Baybrook Mall (SE Houston) because it "feels" a little different: slightly classy, colorfull, without the annoying super high class of Galleria. Plus, lots of fine women walking around, everywhere! But that can be said in most places around here. I know this, if I go to Dallas, the last thing I want to do is go somewhere that pretty much feels the same as what I am used to. And malls definitely are in that category. I would want someone to tell me about some unique quirky place in Dallas that I should check out. Deep Ellum is sorta different, at least different when compared to malls. So I would go there. Probably the JFK museum. Things that are different.

So dont bother with malls this weekend...unless you want to check out georgous women walking around, then by all means do so.

Your time would be better spent walking around Hermann Park, check out that bizzare human body parts exhibit while you are at the park (Museum of Natural Science). That's different. The antique's row, on Saturday after lunch, at least 10 antique shops all in walking distance (lower Westhiemer, west of Montrose). La Carafe in Market Square, downtown, Saturday night (Sam Houston slept thier, you do the math) Heck, just go barhopping in the entire downtown historic district, Saturday, after 10:00pm. Maybe NASA, take a tour of mission control, if that does something for you. The boardwalk, close to NASA, is sorta different, and if you want pretty good seafood for not too much money, across the boardwalk channel is Papadeux Seafood. Back in the Montrose is the Skybar...with access to the roof top of the building...it has an excellent view from way up high.

Just dont waste your time in malls.

[713 To 214]

From Friday May 5th at Northpark:

http://forum.dallasmetropolis.com/attachme...tachmentid=9950

http://forum.dallasmetropolis.com/attachme...tachmentid=9951

http://forum.dallasmetropolis.com/attachme...tachmentid=9952

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http://forum.dallasmetropolis.com/attachme...tachmentid=9954

[Mister X]

I'm really beginning to question your sanity.

[TxDave]

JasonDFW,

You are not going to be impressed with another mall in Houston. Why? Because in general, malls are malls. I like Baybrook Mall (SE Houston) because it "feels" a little different: slightly classy, colorfull, without the annoying super high class of Galleria. Plus, lots of fine women walking around, everywhere! But that can be said in most places around here. I know this, if I go to Dallas, the last thing I want to do is go somewhere that pretty much feels the same as what I am used to. And malls definitely are in that category. I would want someone to tell me about some unique quirky place in Dallas that I should check out. Deep Ellum is sorta different, at least different when compared to malls. So I would go there. Probably the JFK museum. Things that are different.

So dont bother with malls this weekend...unless you want to check out georgous women walking around, then by all means do so.

Your time would be better spent walking around Hermann Park, check out that bizzare human body parts exhibit while you are at the park (Museum of Natural Science). That's different. The antique's row, on Saturday after lunch, at least 10 antique shops all in walking distance (lower Westhiemer, west of Montrose). La Carafe in Market Square, downtown, Saturday night (Sam Houston slept thier, you do the math) Heck, just go barhopping in the entire downtown historic district, Saturday, after 10:00pm. Maybe NASA, take a tour of mission control, if that does something for you. The boardwalk, close to NASA, is sorta different, and if you want pretty good seafood for not too much money, across the boardwalk channel is Papadeux Seafood. Back in the Montrose is the Skybar...with access to the roof top of the building...it has an excellent view from way up high.

Just dont waste your time in malls.

Jason DFW-

I agree with 2112 in that there are many better things to see in Houston than any mall.

However, if you are interested in this thread, you really should check out the Galleria. It truly is a Texas institution, and you will be able to fairly compare it with the top tier shopping centers in Dallas.

Be sure to check out 2112's suggestions as well. Houston does really have a lot of very interesting sites to visit beyond shopping.

[musicman]

From Friday May 5th at Northpark:

http://forum.dallasmetropolis.com/attachme...tachmentid=9950

http://forum.dallasmetropolis.com/attachme...tachmentid=9951

http://forum.dallasmetropolis.com/attachme...tachmentid=9952

http://forum.dallasmetropolis.com/attachme...tachmentid=9953

http://forum.dallasmetropolis.com/attachme...tachmentid=9954

OK is it just me, or does this look like an airport? I still don't see this as Buckingham Palace, Sistine Chapel or anything like that.

[KimberlySayWhat]

It does look like a mall. Wow! I did have bigger expectations after reading all the fuss in this thread. Memorial City has a nicer dining court than what I see there. But, hey, I'm not getting into this!

[tierwestah]

yeah i agree^^

not saying that its not a nice mall, but it didn't look all that to go home bragging about.

For anyone to write an article putting it on the same level as Houston's Galleria is ridiculous.

[rantanamo]

points that should be pointed out here:

- Dallas does have a Galleria built by the same people that built yours. It has a very similar design. Its not like big modern malls are something absent from DFW. We actually have a ton of modern malls to compare it to.

- No offense to the photographer, but those pics don't do Northpark justice. The expansion has to be one of the classiest pieces of building I've seen in a long time. The way everything ties together is incredible. The original mall is very conservative, yet just elegent enough to let you know you're at an upscale mall. I was worried the expansion would try to out-Galleria itself. It didn't.

- I think some of you are hung up on flash. If you read what posters and the articles say, then you know it is not a flashy mall. Its a very elegant and understated mall in design. It does happen to display many priceless works from the Nasher collection. That's about all the flash you get there.

- To suggest its not on the level of either the Dallas or Houston Galleria is the only ridiculous thing on this thread. Its large in size. Its about as upscale of a mall as their is in Texas. Is there a more upscale mall in Texas? It has a good enough reputation that its, next expansion will include a hotel. Its one of the nation's sales leader per square foot. The Nasher family actually displays part of their modern art collection there. Just because it doesn't have a skating rink 3 tier design and large glass roof doesn't mean its inferior to the Gallerias.

[musicman]

points that should be pointed out here:

- Dallas does have a Galleria built by the same people that built yours. It has a very similar design. Its not like big modern malls are something absent from DFW. We actually have a ton of modern malls to compare it to.

I think that's what's being said here. It is a mall and nothing more.

- No offense to the photographer, but those pics don't do Northpark justice. The expansion has to be one of the classiest pieces of building I've seen in a long time. The way everything ties together is incredible. The original mall is very conservative, yet just elegent enough to let you know you're at an upscale mall. I was worried the expansion would try to out-Galleria itself. It didn't.

I think it is the descriptions that have been posted that are misleading. Then when you look at the pics, it is a BIG let down. Looks like a mall.

- I think some of you are hung up on flash. If you read what posters and the articles say, then you know it is not a flashy mall. Its a very elegant and understated mall in design. It does happen to display many priceless works from the Nasher collection. That's about all the flash you get there.

For me personally, the advertising campaign must be huge there. Classifying it as "an experience" on the website is humorous. Displaying pieces of public art is quite common here. Even driving along freeways you see them. The only reason i'm thinking flash is because that's how everyone is describing it. "it's incredible" "The shopping cewnter provides an experience like none other in the U.S. It's like a museum that just so happen to have retail stores. The shopping center is truly more than just a mall." To me the desciptions make it sound like the Louvre or the Pushkin.

- To suggest its not on the level of either the Dallas or Houston Galleria is the only ridiculous thing on this thread. Its large in size. Its about as upscale of a mall as their is in Texas. Is there a more upscale mall in Texas? It has a good enough reputation that its, next expansion will include a hotel. Its one of the nation's sales leader per square foot. The Nasher family actually displays part of their modern art collection there. Just because it doesn't have a skating rink 3 tier design and large glass roof doesn't mean its inferior to the Gallerias.

I don't think people are saying it is inferior, people are saying it is a mall. Mister X summed it up best. He said "I don't think anyone in the world outside Dallas could elevate the experience of going to a mall as a celebration of the fine arts." We have to remember the big picture here, it DOES have a Chick-fil-A, like most malls.

[banking214]

I like the new Northpark. It is very much like the Galleria in Houston. The Galleria is great now that they have finished the updates. It is so new and fresh and very much exciting. I do wish they would have made a nice greenspace like Northpark. Someone said something about Memorial City Mall. The place may look nice, but it is not even in the same league. I was born and raised in Bunker Hill, and not even my parents will go to Memorial City. Just a differernt caliber of stores and clientele.

[rantanamo]

QUOTE(rantanamo @ Sunday, May 7th, 2006 @ 4:49am) *

I think that's what's being said here. It is a mall and nothing more.

As a physical building, of course it is a just a mall. I think everyone understands that. But there are many places that transcend what they 'simply' are. Do you dispute that? Something has to be right there for the place to have stuck to its original style for decades, lead much larger malls in sales for decades and become known as an instution.........for decades. Why? I have no idea. Even a suburban skeptic like myself can't deny its continued success. I've watched Colling Creek, Richardson Square, Big Town, Town East, Prestonwood, Redbird, and even Galleria Dallas all fade to or near oblivion or need extreme makeovers to boost sales during my lifetime alone. At that same time, Northpark never changed its look, yet continued to outsell them. Before its expansion was announced, it was outselling the others. The Nasher family decided to update and expand, not because they needed to. That in and of itself says something as well.

I think it is the descriptions that have been posted that are misleading. Then when you look at the pics, it is a BIG let down. Looks like a mall.

The descriptions are dead on. The place simply elegant and non-compromising. I was one who was skeptical. Now I love the place. I never thought the old mall was particularly beautiful, but could accept that rare art was there, and that it says something for a place to be so simple, yet be one of the sales leading malls per square foot in the whole United States. A place where people actually go and stay rather than visit their store and leave. But the expansion is really spectacular to me. A total understanding of what the old parts needed, yet not going in a total other direction. Its like, whatever was working at the mall was only extended and improved. The clean lines work. The place has never recieved the type of makeover that other malls do ever decade and a half, yet has continued to outdraw them for over 40 years. Not many places like that. Trust me, there is no disappointment in person. Just because you expected 'Gaudy' from the descriptions doesn't make it a letdown. It simply has never been an in-your-face place.

For me personally, the advertising campaign must be huge there. Classifying it as "an experience" on the website is humorous. Displaying pieces of public art is quite common here. Even driving along freeways you see them. The only reason i'm thinking flash is because that's how everyone is describing it. "it's incredible" "The shopping cewnter provides an experience like none other in the U.S. It's like a museum that just so happen to have retail stores. The shopping center is truly more than just a mall." To me the desciptions make it sound like the Louvre or the Pushkin.

This is where I simply don't think you guys understand. You make it seem like the art displayed is from the local high school or the local iron sculptor. Its not public art. PLEASE read about the Nasher Sculpture Garden and the pieces that are displayed there from of the world's finest art collections. Pieces that were only displayed at Northpark before Nasher opened the sculpture Garden. Is it the Louvre? No. Does it display art from a collection that's as fine as anything in Texas? YES. That's not hard to understand if you read up on it. One part of the new expansion is the inclusion of a sculpture garden to display more of the collection. So yes, it is a destination.

I don't think people are saying it is inferior, people are saying it is a mall. Mister X summed it up best. He said "I don't think anyone in the world outside Dallas could elevate the experience of going to a mall as a celebration of the fine arts." We have to remember the big picture here, it DOES have a Chick-fil-A, like most malls.

We know its just a mall. But you guys are sounding like sour grapes. You can shout disappointment about a place that you've never been to all day, but you can't argue with its numbers. And if you want to argue the size numbers, I'd suggest taking that up with our poster LH. He seems to have worked with this expansion and can probably provide the best explanation of the claim. He also has some nice pictures pre-opening.

[dalparadise]

One thing to note in this stupid argument is that, while the Houston Galleria does connect to Neiman Marcus, NM is not considered part of the mall and is not figured in the leasable space. Nor is the Dillard's, which is less than a hundred yards away, across a treed crosswalk that is so much a part of The Galleria, it should be included in the mall. These are two giant stores that, if included, might put The Galleria (capital T in "The") up in number 2-3 in the country and definitely #1 in Texas.

The "upscale" angle of this thread doesn't interest me, as I don't go to malls for entertainment and no one can legitimately dispute The Galleria's position as the best known luxury shopping mall inside or outside Texas, anyway.

The only time I go to a mall to spend a lot of time is during the holiday season, when the people-watching is a big part of the season to me. Northpark is very nice -- quite elegant and understated. I enjoyed shopping there during the holidays when I lived in Dallas. Without having seen the NP expansion myself, however, I can still confidently say The Galleria just has more and better options -- which is the point of all the crowing about Northpark in the first place, right?

[musicman]

QUOTE(rantanamo @ Sunday, May 7th, 2006 @ 4:49am) *

As a physical building, of course it is a just a mall. I think everyone understands that. But there are many places that transcend what they 'simply' are. Do you dispute that? Something has to be right there for the place to have stuck to its original style for decades, lead much larger malls in sales for decades and become known as an instution.........for decades.

I agree that there are many places that transcend what they simply are. We in the United States have a relatively young country with the state of Texas being even newer. I've traveled quite a few places around the world and seen places that are hundreds if not thousands of years old. for me it must be a matter of symantics. I don't think i would use mall and transcend in the same sentence. Saying it surpasses your expectations, is a great mall is fine with me. I personally would save transcend for something special, not a decades old nice mall. For me there's definitely a time factor involved. To me people use the word diva incorrectly too and call singers in their 20's a diva. having one or two successful albums doesn't make a diva.

The descriptions are dead on. The place simply elegant and non-compromising. I was one who was skeptical. Now I love the place. I never thought the old mall was particularly beautiful, but could accept that rare art was there, and that it says something for a place to be so simple, yet be one of the sales leading malls per square foot in the whole United States. A place where people actually go and stay rather than visit their store and leave. But the expansion is really spectacular to me. A total understanding of what the old parts needed, yet not going in a total other direction. Its like, whatever was working at the mall was only extended and improved. The clean lines work. The place has never recieved the type of makeover that other malls do ever decade and a half, yet has continued to outdraw them for over 40 years. Not many places like that. Trust me, there is no disappointment in person. Just because you expected 'Gaudy' from the descriptions doesn't make it a letdown. It simply has never been an in-your-face place.

Again, i'm not doubting any popularity polls or anything like that. When someone quoted some numbers from the International Council on Shopping Centers it personally cracked me up cause I didn't know one existed! IT IS FUNNY! In no way did I expect gaudy either. I just expected something different, something more. Like when they switched from b&w tv to color broadcasts. That reinvented the television industry. I just don't see the United States bulldozing every mall anytime soon because this mall was remodelled.

This is where I simply don't think you guys understand. You make it seem like the art displayed is from the local high school or the local iron sculptor. Its not public art. PLEASE read about the Nasher Sculpture Garden and the pieces that are displayed there from of the world's finest art collections. Pieces that were only displayed at Northpark before Nasher opened the sculpture Garden. Is it the Louvre? No. Does it display art from a collection that's as fine as anything in Texas? YES. That's not hard to understand if you read up on it. One part of the new expansion is the inclusion of a sculpture garden to display more of the collection. So yes, it is a destination.

I have no doubt that many people go there or will go there. Incorporating art into the project is a nice touch too. The City of Houston does that with its public buildings here as part of the budget in each newly constructed building. There is an entire museum here that is dedicated to sharing a private family's art collection. And collection is an understatement. It is a world renown museum called the Menil. I work with Russian counterparts in Moscow and that is always one of their tourist destinations while they are here. For me personally, putting their collection in the middle of a mall would be tacky if not disgraceful. I like most museums, probably more than the average person. I just wouldn't been in the same mood if i had to walk through a mall food court to see the exhibit.

We know its just a mall. But you guys are sounding like sour grapes. You can shout disappointment about a place that you've never been to all day, but you can't argue with its numbers. And if you want to argue the size numbers, I'd suggest taking that up with our poster LH. He seems to have worked with this expansion and can probably provide the best explanation of the claim. He also has some nice pictures pre-opening.

No I won't argue with any numbers. However as an engineer, the method of calculation is definitely up for debate. But i won't cause i don't want anyone to quote the International Council on Shopping Centers.

[Mister X]

QUOTE(rantanamo @ Sunday, May 7th, 2006 @ 4:49am) *

We know its just a mall. But you guys are sounding like sour grapes.

Oh hear we go. It's the "if your not impressed with something in Dallas, you MUST be jealous" theory.

Wrong. I can't believe anyone in Houston would trade their Galleria for Northpark.

You can absolutely judge Northpark by those photos. I've seen it. I did NOT deem it worthy of photography. I don't think the photographer used Photoshop or anything to make the mall seem LESS impressive to the people on this forum. I was there last week. That is what the place looks like - a mall, with a chick-fil-a and some "art".

I don't speak for everyone, but I bet I speak for more when I say that Northpark is not exactly a life changing experience. Unless maybe you have no life to begin with.

[tamtagon]

It is a world renown museum called the Menil. I work with Russian counterparts in Moscow and that is always one of their tourist destinations while they are here. For me personally, putting their collection in the middle of a mall would be tacky if not disgraceful. I like most museums, probably more than the average person. I just wouldn't been in the same mood if i had to walk through a mall food court to see the exhibit.

The pieces displayed in the mall from the Nasher collection are sculptures or giant multi media wall hangings. It's not like there's an Impressionist painting next to the Taco Bell. The pieces shown in the mall are purposefully selected by a curator. Non-art fanatics probably wont really notice the importance of the 'weird looking thang' at the mall, but a unique, barely noticeable reverance is given to the ambiance of the shopping mall. The pieces displayed in Northpark Mall are as suited to that environment as the Rothko Chapel is to its park.

I remember the first time I went to Northpark, I was an art student at NTSU. All I knew was that it was big mall and thought it strange my painting class friends, from Dallas, wanted to go there after visiting the museum. So whatever and everything, but I did a classic double take when I saw a giant Warhol hanging on the wall. I thought it was cool to see a copy of something like that in a mall, but was kinda blown away to learn it was the original.

Years later, I still think it's incredible. And it has only gotten better since the mall now has an acre+ park for outdoor displays.

That, to me, is what makes NorthPark the best mall in Texas.

[Mister X]

That, to me, is what makes NorthPark the best mall in Texas.

No it isn't. It's the fact that it's in Dallas.

[713 To 214]

I encourage everyone here to check Northpark out, if/when you're ever in Dallas. For those who appear only interested in making circular arguments, for argument's sake. . .no one's attempting to change your opinion, anyway. However, your opinion is respected.

[tamtagon]

No it isn't. It's the fact that it's in Dallas.

hahahahaha

[RedScare]

Why do I keep thinking of that Bud Light commercial, where the guys are kneeling before the "Magic Fridge" whenever I read this thread?

[musicman]

The pieces displayed in the mall from the Nasher collection are sculptures or giant multi media wall hangings. It's not like there's an Impressionist painting next to the Taco Bell. The pieces shown in the mall are purposefully selected by a curator. Non-art fanatics probably wont really notice the importance of the 'weird looking thang' at the mall, but a unique, barely noticeable reverance is given to the ambiance of the shopping mall. The pieces displayed in Northpark Mall are as suited to that environment as the Rothko Chapel is to its park.

I have no doubt that there are many great pieces of artwork. I just feel that walking through a mall in order to see them distracts from the whole experience. For me walking through a peaceful park prior to entering the Rothko chapel adds to the experience.

[Mister X]

Now come on. You know this discussion would not even be happening if Northpark Mall, as it exist today, was located in Houston. If it was, Dallas enthusiast would change the topic - quick - and start comparing bowling alleys or something.

I don't go to Dallas forums, do Houstonians clip articles and post photos everytime a new stop sign is erected in Houston. This rivalry, cracks me up.

There is nothing wrong with Northpark, it's a nice mall. It's just funny to me that it is not enough for Dallas boosters to say its a nice mall. No, it has to the best mall ever built in the state of Texas, which is a laughable idea that is not being bought by anyone outside Dallas.

I would encourage anyone visiting Dallas who wants to see some fine art - go to Fort Worth and see the Kimbell. Go to Northpark if you need a pair of jeans that cost 3 times what they are worth.

But for God's sake, try and find something better to do than spend your day at a mall. You can do that anywhere. There certainly has to be something more interesting to do in Dallas than to go to Northpark Mall.

I hope.

[tamtagon]

For me walking through a peaceful park prior to entering the Rothko chapel adds to the experience.

I think the scene you describe - walking through the peaceful and lush park, then spending time in the Rothko Chapel - is one of the best "art experiences" there is. It feels good, it looks good, I love it.

You know this discussion would not even be happening if Northpark Mall, as it exist today, was located in Houston.

...it has to the best mall ever built in the state of Texas, which is a laughable idea that is not being bought by anyone outside Dallas.

...But for God's sake, try and find something better to do than spend your day at a mall. You can do that anywhere.

I would have the same discussion, but apparently you would not. I think it's great to see museum quality, high art when looking around at the mall.

For decades, Northpark has been widely acknowledged as one of the country's best shopping malls.

Only in Dallas can you go to the mall and compare original works of art to their pictures in art books.

[AZTX]

I'm new here to this forum. I currently reside in Scottsdale but have lived in Houston, Dallas and OKC. I know of people here who have visited Dallas purely to shop. I have never heard anyone going to Houston just to shop. The selection of boutique shops in Dallas is incredible and only comparable to NYC and LA. This goes beyond Northpark. As for Northpark, in the personal experience, it is the best mall I have ever been to. It has little to do with the stores themselves, rather the experience. With relatively low ceilings is has a more intimate setting. The building's simple elegance is truly outstanding and that's why I will visit Northpark while in Dallas.

[Mister X]

I think it's great to see museum quality, high art when looking around at the mall.

For decades, Northpark has been widely acknowledged as one of the country's best shopping malls.

Only in Dallas can you go to the mall and compare original works of art to their pictures in art books.

It's mall quality art at best.

Only in Dallas is Northpark widely acknowledged as one of the country's best shopping malls.

If you think Dallas is the only place that has malls that display original works of art that you can also see in books, you obviously don't get out of Dallas much.

I'm new here to this forum. I currently reside in Scottsdale but have lived in Houston, Dallas and OKC. I know of people here who have visited Dallas purely to shop. I have never heard anyone going to Houston just to shop. The selection of boutique shops in Dallas is incredible and only comparable to NYC and LA. This goes beyond Northpark. As for Northpark, in the personal experience, it is the best mall I have ever been to. It has little to do with the stores themselves, rather the experience. With relatively low ceilings is has a more intimate setting. The building's simple elegance is truly outstanding and that's why I will visit Northpark while in Dallas.

Is this a joke? No, Seriously, is this a joke.

[Mister X]

There certainly has to be something more interesting to do in Dallas than to go to Northpark Mall.

I guess not.

[AZTX]

I'm not saying its the only thing I do when in Dallas, but I enjoy shopping and Northpark is always a stop. There are plenty of great restaurants. I would enjoy a day at the spa, but I would rather visit the Royal Palms or the Camelback Inn here in Scottsdale. I'm looking forward to visiting the Nasher Sculpture Garden next time in town as well as stopping by GhostBar.

[2112]

I'm not saying its the only thing I do when in Dallas, but I enjoy shopping and Northpark is always a stop. There are plenty of great restaurants. I would enjoy a day at the spa, but I would rather visit the Royal Palms or the Camelback Inn here in Scottsdale. I'm looking forward to visiting the Nasher Sculpture Garden next time in town as well as stopping by GhostBar.

I noticed you mentioned "camelback". That's all I'm saying here...that is, that you said "camel". Don't try to read into my response here. There's nothing there. (Except for "camel")

[tamtagon]

you obviously don't get out of Dallas much.

I live in Atlanta.