Houston Vs. Dallas Shopping

[slfunk]

I guess high-end retailers like to expierement with San Antonio and Dallas first. Also, I thought the Galleria (Houston) had a Barney's.

Barney's Co-op....... Don't know what the difference is. I think the co-op does not have everything a traditional Barney's has........

[Gary]

Wouldn't you guys feel more at home talking about this on SSC? This thread is tired, old and in general, goofy.

[houstonfella]

This shopping thing is the only thread that makes me yawn. Good grief. Every large city has some pretty good shopping. Dallas has excellent shopping. No mountains. No bays. No beaches. No lots of things ... so they shop. Give them an A in shopping and move on. Houston has so much more than shopping, so let's not even compete in that arena. However, Galleria Houston is in the top 5 of the best of the best in America. Dallas doesn't have one in that arena. But they have awesome shopping... ? whatever.

[west20th]

Dallas doesn't have one in that arena. But they have awesome shopping... ? whatever.

And a port, don't forget the port!

[blkmex]

And a port, don't forget the port

Ah the port, we cant forget the port

[tamtagon]

The funny thing about that port - it will be a disasterous blow to the pride of those Houstonians who feed on Dallas shortcomings. The success of the cargo processing complex in Dallas County is vital to the diversification of Port of Houston enterprises. The real trick will be getting American exports processed through the Dallas County complex.

The economic boomtime coming through the Dallas Agile Port will increase the prominence of the Metroplex as a shopping destination. For now, though, there's not that much difference between the Dallas and Houston shopping availability.

[RedScare]

The economic boomtime coming through the Dallas Agile Port will increase the prominence of the Metroplex as a shopping destination. For now, though, there's not that much difference between the Dallas and Houston shopping availability.

If that were true, then Houston would be miles ahead of Dallas currently, since the Port of Houston is already here. Safe to say, building a huge railyard will not increase Dallas' shopping prominence...unless it enhances Dallas' prominence as a source for Dickeys and Red Wings.

[Coaster]

I'm not one of those who feed on Dallas' shortcomings but I'm convinced that Tamtagon doesn't have a clue of what he's talking about here.

Anyone who believes that an economic boom is certain is not dealing in reality in the first place. But to suggest that the success of a blue collar warehouse complex will turn a city into a shopping destination is ridiculous.

[rantanamo]

[sarcasm]Yep, no execs, HQs, regional offices or any auxillaries to such industry will happen. They just sit there and happen upon themselves, run themselves, and spur nothing. That's why there is nothing in Houston[sarcasm]

as Alliance has shown, such facilities are booms to white collar and executive auxillaries. Houston should know this very well.

I don't understand your statement RedScare. You make it as if there is a Port or not a port and nothing else to speak of. You have some things, we(Dallas) have others. This has led to a "tie" in the terms that tamtagon is speaking. Its a simple hypothesis(true or not true, who knows) that adding an industry to Dallas that is now not such a major player in its region and making it one of the biggest will add something tangible in the sense of the dollar. I believe that's all tamtagon is trying to say. Again, if you want an example, look at your own city or a smaller complex like Alliance and what it means to white collar exec type jobs.

[RedScare]

[sarcasm]Yep, no execs, HQs, regional offices or any auxillaries to such industry will happen. They just sit there and happen upon themselves, run themselves, and spur nothing. That's why there is nothing in Houston[sarcasm]

as Alliance has shown, such facilities are booms to white collar and executive auxillaries. Houston should know this very well.

I don't understand your statement RedScare. You make it as if there is a Port or not a port and nothing else to speak of. You have some things, we(Dallas) have others. This has led to a "tie" in the terms that tamtagon is speaking. Its a simple hypothesis(true or not true, who knows) that adding an industry to Dallas that is now not such a major player in its region and making it one of the biggest will add something tangible in the sense of the dollar. I believe that's all tamtagon is trying to say. Again, if you want an example, look at your own city or a smaller complex like Alliance and what it means to white collar exec type jobs.

Are you intentionally missing the point, or do you really not understand what tamtagon was trying to imply?

The title of this ridiculous thread is 'Houston vs. Dallas Shopping'. The entire ignorant thread composes a debate about which city has more or better upscale shopping. (For reasons that should be readily apparent, there has been no thread to date on which city has more WalMarts or Targets.) Tamtagon's post suggested, either, that the existence of this massive rail yard will bring massive amounts of upscale goods to the metroplex, thereby making Dallas more of a shopping mecca, OR the massive rail yard will create so many jobs that the thousands of newly employed yard workers will suddenly spend their new-found wealth on designer clothing.

Now, let me reprint tamtagon's quote...

The economic boomtime coming through the Dallas Agile Port will increase the prominence of the Metroplex as a shopping destination.

Now, assuming tamtagon (and you) is not a total moron, I don't think he was suggesting that all of those new warehouse workers will suddenly start shopping at NorthPark Mall. So, the only thing he could be suggesting is that the creation of this huge rail yard will flood the Dallas area with heretofore unattainable upscale goods, making Dallas the upscale shopping mecca of the universe. Since Houston currently has one of the largest ports in the country, it would stand to reason that Houston already has these unattainable goods, making HOUSTON the upscale shopping mecca of the universe. Since we all agree that this is not the case, then tamtagon must have pulled that ridiculous statement out of his (non-smelly, Dallas) ass.

Now, I am going to sit back and watch the two of you do backflips and cartwheels explaining that this is not what you meant, and that railyards DO increase a city's image as a shopping destination. Upon doing so, I will then slap my forehead, scream, 'D'oh!', and drive out to the Port of Houston rail yard to purchase a new Armani suit.

[houstonfella]

I am off work this week and with our beautiful weather, we have plans for lunch at Monument Inn. That would be the one where you can cross the Houston Ship Channel by ferry. While you dine, you see ships from countries round the world ease through bringing goods that we can send to the "Port of Dallas" The one thing that we have on any Texas city is our port, bays and the entire Gulf of Mexico. I could choose to shop, but I'd rather be in touch with nature in the shadow of the San Jacinto Monument. While I'm there, if there aren't 15,000 school kids, I might go over and take the elevator to the top for the view, and, I haven't been there for a couple of years.

[tamtagon]

The economic boomtime coming through the Dallas Agile Port will increase the prominence of the Metroplex as a shopping destination.

I do believe Dallas is on its way to become the haute couture epicenter of the South Central US.

I'm not one of those who feed on Dallas' shortcomings but I'm convinced that Tamtagon doesn't have a clue of what he's talking about here.

Ya, the decoder ring was not included with the cryptic [ridiculous] talk.

Tamtagon's post suggested, either, that the existence of this massive rail yard will bring massive amounts of upscale goods to the metroplex, thereby making Dallas more of a shopping mecca, OR the massive rail yard will create so many jobs that the thousands of newly employed yard workers will suddenly spend their new-found wealth on designer clothing.

...

So, the only thing he could be suggesting is that the creation of this huge rail yard will flood the Dallas area with heretofore unattainable upscale goods, making Dallas the upscale shopping mecca of the universe.

Now, I am going to sit back and watch the two of you do backflips and cartwheels explaining that this is not what you meant, and that railyards DO increase a city's image as a shopping destination. Upon doing so, I will then slap my forehead, scream, 'D'oh!', and drive out to the Port of Houston rail yard to purchase a new Armani suit.

I did not intend to suggest either of the possibilities you presented, RedScare, although the disposable income from tens of thousands of new Metroplex jobs is a cornerstone of secondary influencers to the expansion of upscale shopping availability in Dallas:

The anticipated rapid growth of the agile/inland port industry segment in Dallas County will have a significant upward impact on the economy of the Metroplex and State. The Metroplex population growth rate is much more likely to be sustain at 30-33% per census because of the inland port, at least for 15-20 years. The indroductory pay rate for an average warehouse job should be around $10-15/hour. Additionally, most of the jobs will be available to and have above average pay for many under-qualified job-seekers already moving to the Metroplex en masse. One of the best case scenerios of good economic health for any population center is an industry expansion which organically assists the movement of large numbers of people from a low income existance to a middle income lifestyle. So, a whole lotta families will successfully make longterm investment purchases (homes) and still have a decent amount of disposable income for occasional purchases of designer clothing.

Location is the primary reason the agile port will increase the prominence of the Metroplex, specifically Dallas, as a shopping destination. All of this agile/inland port is gonna happen just a few miles SSE of downtown Dallas, and on top of the thousands of acers locked into industrial use, there's still enough open, easily developed land for more than 500,000 new Dallas County residents. Neighboring counties will experience similar population growth. The significant impact of this new geographic direction for Metroplex population growth is how downtown Dallas will become more central to the entire population. While many residents of northern satellite communities may no longer need or tolerate an increasingly lengthy trek into Dallas, the easy trip from southern satellite communities into Central Dallas will bouy "the city" atmosphere. Downtown Dallas neighborhoods (CBD, Uptown, Deep Ellum, Cedars) become a much better location for the niche retailers incapable of making a profit in the suburbs. The rise of densely populated, ultra-affluent downtown sub-neighborhoods is bouyed by a more vibrant city atmosphere and the flood of ultra-expensive retail and service-oriented operations is directly linked to the concentration of domestic wealth and disposable income.

So, the upscale shopping availibility thing - it's not as much that a new industry segment will support a growing Metroplex population and economy, it more that this industry expansion will geographically shift the destination for much of the new population growth and increase local visitation of the downtown retail/entertainment setting. The more satisfying city-experience possible in Downtown Dallas combined with an extremely affluent local population will manifest a setting where the most expensive, most upscale niche retail venues can thrive.

So, that, in a nut-shell, is why I think the agile port will increase the prominence of the Metroplex as a shopping destination.

[Dallasboi]

Well said.............

[RedScare]

tamtagon, though I do not doubt that the port will bring life to a historically depressed area of Dallas County, parlaying middle wage jobs into shopping prominence is a stretch. $10 to $15 wage earners do not shop at high end shops.

As for the port's effect on Dallas, there are too many assumptions made to make that call. However, one thing is certain. Dallas' "port" is a subset of Houston's port. It will be decades before the Dallas installation even remotely approaches the volume that Houston's port does now. By that time, Houston's port will be even larger, since it is servicing both city's operations. So, for any of your assumptions about Dallas boomtimes, and the attendant shopping prominence created by the Agile Port to be true, we should be able to look at Houston today and see the ripple effect in action. The fact is, I don't see it. Houston has a thriving economy, no doubt helped by the port. But, the thousands of middle wage port jobs in Houston have not created a Rodeo Drive here, just as they will not create one in Dallas.

One last thing. The bottom line in these operations is efficiency. The reason the Port of Houston is proposing this is to more efficiently move goods through the port. By definition, efficiency means the most work achieved with the least amount of labor. While this "port" will create well paying jobs, it will not create the numbers of jobs one might expect. Much of these goods will be moved in an automated fashion. In a metro of 6 million people, there might be 3.6 million jobs. Even 10,000 jobs a YEAR is not enough to employ all of the new residents.

It is a big deal for South Dallas. The rest of the metro, not so much. And, for Barney's.....not even on the radar.

[Coaster]

I think Tam is idealizing the impact of the Dallas Warehouse Complex and shopping all out of proportion (like many other things in Dallas). Many factors must come together to make this complex the success that Tam is dreaming of. It seems like Tam is counting his high end chickens before they hatch.

Maybe Tam could make Superbowl predictions like those geniuses at ESPN as well. Those guys rely on crystal balls too. His optimism for the future of Dallas shopping is apprieciated but come back to planet Earth, we miss you.

Tam should save the facts and figures for when (or if) this SE Dallas warehouse district makes a significant economic impact to the Metroplex. I'm sure this thread will still be going strong in 20 years. Then Tam might have some ACTUAL numbers to back up the claims instead of talking about hopeful projections and cryptic fantasies.

Convinced more than ever.

[tamtagon]

Maybe Tam could make Superbowl predictions like those geniuses at ESPN as well.

Superbowl winners, The Dallas Cowboys, of course. Who did you think.

[tamtagon]

$10 to $15 wage earners do not shop at high end shops.

But, the thousands of middle wage port jobs in Houston have not created a Rodeo Drive here, just as they will not create one in Dallas.

Ya, that's what I said: the port will not create thousands of high end shoppers.

This is not an economic theory, this is a sociologic theory.

The port will generate a population geography underwriting the emergence of highly concentrated high end retailers.

[Trae]

I think the boonies along IH-45 and 635 in south Dallas will become what Beltway 8 East and IH-10 look like now. Nothing more, just new homes signs for southern Dallas.

[houstonfella]

Lunch was great at Monument Inn. On a real waterway with real barges, ships and boats coming and going. In your dreams, Big D, in your dreams.

[Dallasboi]

Lunch was great at Monument Inn. On a real waterway with real barges, ships and boats coming and going. In your dreams, Big D, in your dreams.

Naw....We dream of a much cleaner version............And besides the port of houston is not a pretty place so cut the bull.

[Mister X]

Yeah Dallasboi - Your so lucky. You can take your family down to the "Port" of Dallas any time you want and have lunch overlooking all the beautiful warehouses and watch all the exotic fork lifts and the sophisticated people operating them as they move cargo from one container to the other.

What an awsome place to spend a day!

[feufoma]

Really, comparisons of Dallas and Houston are so tired. Both are very similar on a metro level and somewhat similar on a city level. Frankly, both lack quite a bit to be desired from an urban perspective. I just returned from a couple of weeks in Europe (primarily Germany) and both Dallas and Houston look so antiquated and dirty it's actually pretty embarassing. Berlin, Hamburg, Hannover and Amsterdam are light years ahead of either Dallas or Houston. We need to stop comparing and work together to make both cities more urbane. I get this feeling every time I travel abroad and return to the banality of Texas.

[Dallasboi]

Yeah Dallasboi - Your so lucky. You can take your family down to the "Port" of Dallas any time you want and have lunch overlooking all the beautiful warehouses and watch all the exotic fork lifts and the sophisticated people operating them as they move cargo from one container to the other.

What an awsome place to spend a day!

Well I guess we never miss what we never had. With that being said...Us Dallasites don't Dream about sitting and Having lunch on the dirty banks of the port of Houston because like you guys say ...we will never have that(I'll take white rock over POH anyday). The port of houston Is not a leisure destination. However I view White rock lack as a perfect place to take the family to do a little boating and eating. We don't have to worry about choking on smog while eating our food......So once again...Houstonians are right we will never have a "REAL" port......and we don't need it.

[Mister X]

Well I guess we never miss what we never had. With that being said...Us Dallasites don't Dream about sitting and Having lunch on the dirty banks of the port of Houston because like you guys say ...we will never have that(I'll take white rock over POH anyday). The port of houston Is not a leisure destination. However I view White rock lack as a perfect place to take the family to do a little boating and eating. We don't have to worry about choking on smog while eating our food......So once again...Houstonians are right we will never have a "REAL" port......and we don't need it.

You bet your @$$ you won't have a real port. But you do have your fair share of smog and choking.

[KimberlySayWhat]

What's up with all these Houston vs Dallas threads flairing up like hemroids lately? They've been pretty quiet. Why all of a sudden?

[The Great Hizzy!]

We don't have to worry about choking on smog while eating our food......

LMAO. This is as delusional as delusional gets. Ever seen the air quality statistics for D-FW? Not quite as bad as H-Galv but nothing to stick your chest out over either.

But carry on, junior.

[musicman]

However I view White rock lack as a perfect place to take the family to do a little boating and eating. We don't have to worry about choking on smog while eating our food......

Your Freudian slip "lack" is very ironic.

[tamtagon]

Your Freudian slip "lack" is very ironic.

hahahahaha

[Dallasboi]

Your Freudian slip "lack" is very ironic.

OK guys I did use the wrong word ,but you got the Idea....People in Houston seem to paint this beautiful picture about the POH as this nice wonderful scenic place to enjoy when it's really dirty and not the least bit pleasurable . You want people to believe that people really pay attention to the port and go there for fun when that is so not the case here.....I lived in Houston for 2 whole years and to me the port was never an option for fun....It's strictly business(Inport & Outport).However when I returned back to Dallas(Cleaner Civilization)I realized that an inner city lake(Whiterock)is far more enjoyable with it's accessablility,Marinas, Picnics,Holiday events,Biking ,Sailing,Parties and Grilling,Proximity to downtown(10 min)and I cant forget people watching...........How many people who live in Houston have really went on a leisure trip to the Port of Houston? Better yet ,How many people have ever even been there?

[RedScare]

How many people who live in Houston have really went on a leisure trip to the Port of Houston? Better yet ,How many people have ever even been there?

I used to go to an icehouse on Morgan's Point several times a year to watch the ships come in. Too bad it is closed now.You haven't really seen a ship until you watch a tanker about the size of a skyscraper on it's side slowly chug by, just a few hundred feet from you. I'll take that over watching 22 foot sailboats anyday....but, hey, that's just me.